Electroliner 1935 Yes, when I click on the link for the lastest post, I receive the following: Sorry, there was a problem with your last request! Either the site is offline or an unhandled error occurred. We apologize and have logged the error. Please try your request again or if you know who your site administrator is let them know too. To get HERE, I have to go to the Interesting reading on Milwaukee Road Pacific Coast Extension. click on it, then click on the last page [7] then hit the END key and then scroll up to the latest post.
Yes, when I click on the link for the lastest post, I receive the following:
Either the site is offline or an unhandled error occurred. We apologize and have logged the error. Please try your request again or if you know who your site administrator is let them know too.
To get HERE, I have to go to the Interesting reading on Milwaukee Road Pacific Coast Extension. click on it, then click on the last page [7] then hit the END key and then scroll up to the latest post.
The latest post link tries to put you on the non-existent page 8
'-------.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/288854.aspx?page=8#3386181'
charlie hebdo It's been that way ever since it was decided (by unknown person) to delete Michael Sol's posts (and him). Could this be a new passive- aggressive technique for editorial control by an unknown group at Kalmbach?
It's been that way ever since it was decided (by unknown person) to delete Michael Sol's posts (and him). Could this be a new passive- aggressive technique for editorial control by an unknown group at Kalmbach?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
1. Do all of you get a bizarre page if you go to this thread the normal way by clicking on the last post?
2. Some portions were abandoned or now used by short lines. Is the ROW intact? Could it be daylighted and used as a Kneiling orTesla train to expedite containers from NW ports? That would add capacity and allow some relief from LA and LB ports.
There is a very interesting series of articles online "Latta Laments" written by Mike Dettmers who was a dispatcher for CP - the Louisville - Chicago line.
The series is on the Haley Tower (Terre Haute) website.
haleytower.org/x/laments
Well worth reading.
Ed
Gramp CMStPnP Overmod In my opinion, the only point of the Louisville 'gateway' would be to rebuild it to sufficient quality to run bridge traffic, in that era probably primarily intermodal, over a similarly upgraded PCE to give assured end-to-end speed and QoS to and from PNW ports or other logical constellations of sources that could concentrate on a limited number of intermodal transfer facilities. That could provide for the PNW something close to comparable to ATSF to Southern California. That no real market for true high-speed intermodal actually developed in that era is perhaps a merciful blessing for the Milwaukee... The whole deal with the Louisville route, and I say route because I don't think the Milwaukee ever owned a complete line connecting the two cities of Chicago and Louisville. Though I found out one item in my research, they had trackage rights in Chicago over a B&O terminal railroad to reach the Northern terminus of the line to Terre Haute.....I don't know where or what the end points were there. But the whole deal with the Louisville line that excited people was because the Milwaukee owned the route it was considered an "Eastern" railroad for rate making. Not sure what that meant exactly in railroad terms but allegedly they could get very favorable rates on traffic over the PCE as they were considered an Eastern road with lines and a Terminal City East of Chicago. The evidence is that the Milwaukee never really took advantage of that and even after they gained entry into Louisville, the line still hauled primarily coal North to Chicago and one by one the mines closed in Indiana until in 1973 ish......not a whole lot of coal headed North. Also by 1973, the PCE was suffering from deferred maintenence and slow orders. The one customer the Milwaukee put out a PR campaign about was Louisville Slugger baseball bats. Someone in Louisville told me that the Louisville Slugger bat plant was actually in Southern Indiana across the Ohio River from Louisville and not in Louisville itself.......which is ironic given the PR campaign. The Milwaukee did have at one time a line of its own that connected directly to its southern Illinois line. It originally started from Rockford, crossed its Omaha line at Kirkland, continued southeast through Dekalb and the southern edge of Aurora, Joliet, Peotone, Momence, then connected the south line at Delmar along the Indiana border. The Rockford-Kirkland segment was abandoned as it used the line to Davis Jct. with the Burlington. The bridge over the Fox River at Aurora is used as a bike trail today. The Kirkland-Dekalb segment was still in place in the late 70's. I used to cross it frequently when I was in grad school at NIU. The line bordered Camp Grant at the south edge of Rockford. CG was used as a staging area during WWI. A million men went to war through there. Lots of troop trains. Rockford was a wonderful place to grow up. Today, not the same. https://www.etsy.com/listing/718960678/1940-antique-chicago-milwaukee-st-paul?gbraid=0AAAAADtcfRIq0UmziI9kqO8unWEZFEzGj&gpla=1&gao=1&&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_c-home_and_living-home_decor-globes_and_maps&utm_custom1=_k_EAIaIQobChMIgsrr9PWq9QIVbgOzAB0tRAksEAQYBSABEgLDpfD_BwE_k_&utm_content=go_12569671679_118325095134_507439143263_pla-306079773835_m__718960678_12749991&utm_custom2=12569671679&gbraid=0AAAAADtcfRIq0UmziI9kqO8unWEZFEzGj&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgsrr9PWq9QIVbgOzAB0tRAksEAQYBSABEgLDpfD_BwE
CMStPnP Overmod In my opinion, the only point of the Louisville 'gateway' would be to rebuild it to sufficient quality to run bridge traffic, in that era probably primarily intermodal, over a similarly upgraded PCE to give assured end-to-end speed and QoS to and from PNW ports or other logical constellations of sources that could concentrate on a limited number of intermodal transfer facilities. That could provide for the PNW something close to comparable to ATSF to Southern California. That no real market for true high-speed intermodal actually developed in that era is perhaps a merciful blessing for the Milwaukee... The whole deal with the Louisville route, and I say route because I don't think the Milwaukee ever owned a complete line connecting the two cities of Chicago and Louisville. Though I found out one item in my research, they had trackage rights in Chicago over a B&O terminal railroad to reach the Northern terminus of the line to Terre Haute.....I don't know where or what the end points were there. But the whole deal with the Louisville line that excited people was because the Milwaukee owned the route it was considered an "Eastern" railroad for rate making. Not sure what that meant exactly in railroad terms but allegedly they could get very favorable rates on traffic over the PCE as they were considered an Eastern road with lines and a Terminal City East of Chicago. The evidence is that the Milwaukee never really took advantage of that and even after they gained entry into Louisville, the line still hauled primarily coal North to Chicago and one by one the mines closed in Indiana until in 1973 ish......not a whole lot of coal headed North. Also by 1973, the PCE was suffering from deferred maintenence and slow orders. The one customer the Milwaukee put out a PR campaign about was Louisville Slugger baseball bats. Someone in Louisville told me that the Louisville Slugger bat plant was actually in Southern Indiana across the Ohio River from Louisville and not in Louisville itself.......which is ironic given the PR campaign.
Overmod In my opinion, the only point of the Louisville 'gateway' would be to rebuild it to sufficient quality to run bridge traffic, in that era probably primarily intermodal, over a similarly upgraded PCE to give assured end-to-end speed and QoS to and from PNW ports or other logical constellations of sources that could concentrate on a limited number of intermodal transfer facilities. That could provide for the PNW something close to comparable to ATSF to Southern California. That no real market for true high-speed intermodal actually developed in that era is perhaps a merciful blessing for the Milwaukee...
The whole deal with the Louisville route, and I say route because I don't think the Milwaukee ever owned a complete line connecting the two cities of Chicago and Louisville. Though I found out one item in my research, they had trackage rights in Chicago over a B&O terminal railroad to reach the Northern terminus of the line to Terre Haute.....I don't know where or what the end points were there.
But the whole deal with the Louisville line that excited people was because the Milwaukee owned the route it was considered an "Eastern" railroad for rate making. Not sure what that meant exactly in railroad terms but allegedly they could get very favorable rates on traffic over the PCE as they were considered an Eastern road with lines and a Terminal City East of Chicago.
The evidence is that the Milwaukee never really took advantage of that and even after they gained entry into Louisville, the line still hauled primarily coal North to Chicago and one by one the mines closed in Indiana until in 1973 ish......not a whole lot of coal headed North. Also by 1973, the PCE was suffering from deferred maintenence and slow orders. The one customer the Milwaukee put out a PR campaign about was Louisville Slugger baseball bats. Someone in Louisville told me that the Louisville Slugger bat plant was actually in Southern Indiana across the Ohio River from Louisville and not in Louisville itself.......which is ironic given the PR campaign.
The Milwaukee did have at one time a line of its own that connected directly to its southern Illinois line. It originally started from Rockford, crossed its Omaha line at Kirkland, continued southeast through Dekalb and the southern edge of Aurora, Joliet, Peotone, Momence, then connected the south line at Delmar along the Indiana border. The Rockford-Kirkland segment was abandoned as it used the line to Davis Jct. with the Burlington. The bridge over the Fox River at Aurora is used as a bike trail today. The Kirkland-Dekalb segment was still in place in the late 70's. I used to cross it frequently when I was in grad school at NIU. The line bordered Camp Grant at the south edge of Rockford. CG was used as a staging area during WWI. A million men went to war through there. Lots of troop trains. Rockford was a wonderful place to grow up. Today, not the same. https://www.etsy.com/listing/718960678/1940-antique-chicago-milwaukee-st-paul?gbraid=0AAAAADtcfRIq0UmziI9kqO8unWEZFEzGj&gpla=1&gao=1&&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_c-home_and_living-home_decor-globes_and_maps&utm_custom1=_k_EAIaIQobChMIgsrr9PWq9QIVbgOzAB0tRAksEAQYBSABEgLDpfD_BwE_k_&utm_content=go_12569671679_118325095134_507439143263_pla-306079773835_m__718960678_12749991&utm_custom2=12569671679&gbraid=0AAAAADtcfRIq0UmziI9kqO8unWEZFEzGj&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgsrr9PWq9QIVbgOzAB0tRAksEAQYBSABEgLDpfD_BwE
So from what I was able to find online, the whole reason they got involved in the coal fields in Southern Indiana in the first place was to secure a source of fuel for their steam locomotives as they were fearful of larger interests controlling access to coal which might not be friendly to the railroad.
MJ4562 Question from someone that knows nothing about the PCE: did any of the abandoned lines get purchased by competitors or shortlines?
Question from someone that knows nothing about the PCE: did any of the abandoned lines get purchased by competitors or shortlines?
The part east of Terry MT thru SD was saved by SD and eventually bought by BN. BN also bought the line thru Snoqualmie Pass, but later scrapped it. UP bought Tacoma-Seattle. Port of Tacoma bought the line south of Tacoma to the Mt Rainier area. Shortlines bought the Lewiston branch, Metaline Falls branch and Port Angeles branch. A lumber company bought the line west of Avery.
jeffhergert Overmod In my opinion, the only point of the Louisville 'gateway' would be to rebuild it to sufficient quality to run bridge traffic, in that era probably primarily intermodal, over a similarly upgraded PCE to give assured end-to-end speed and QoS to and from PNW ports or other logical constellations of sources that could concentrate on a limited number of intermodal transfer facilities. That could provide for the PNW something close to comparable to ATSF to Southern California. That no real market for true high-speed intermodal actually developed in that era is perhaps a merciful blessing for the Milwaukee... I think J G Kneilling once suggested rebuilding the PCE for intermodal. Using integral trains, of course. Not in a "should be done" way, but more of a "could be done" one. Jeff
In my opinion, the only point of the Louisville 'gateway' would be to rebuild it to sufficient quality to run bridge traffic, in that era probably primarily intermodal, over a similarly upgraded PCE to give assured end-to-end speed and QoS to and from PNW ports or other logical constellations of sources that could concentrate on a limited number of intermodal transfer facilities.
That could provide for the PNW something close to comparable to ATSF to Southern California.
That no real market for true high-speed intermodal actually developed in that era is perhaps a merciful blessing for the Milwaukee...
I think J G Kneilling once suggested rebuilding the PCE for intermodal. Using integral trains, of course. Not in a "should be done" way, but more of a "could be done" one.
Jeff
As I recall, Kneilling at the time thought a good integral train route opportunity was from the Twin Cities to Atlanta with key intermediate stops. 55-60 mph, 7 mile long, highly maintained trains on single track with sidings where needed. Manual order dispatching to take out cost of signaling. Long, narrow next to track "terminal" for slide on, slide off transfer of boxes. Providing low cost, reliable service.
OvermodIn my opinion, the only point of the Louisville 'gateway' would be to rebuild it to sufficient quality to run bridge traffic, in that era probably primarily intermodal, over a similarly upgraded PCE to give assured end-to-end speed and QoS to and from PNW ports or other logical constellations of sources that could concentrate on a limited number of intermodal transfer facilities. That could provide for the PNW something close to comparable to ATSF to Southern California. That no real market for true high-speed intermodal actually developed in that era is perhaps a merciful blessing for the Milwaukee...
jeffhergertI think J G Kneilling once suggested rebuilding the PCE for intermodal. Using integral trains, of course. Jeff
tree68 Euclid That referred to ships being a single transportation machine, as opposed to contemporary trains being a compostion of motive power units and loose car rolling stock. If there's a downside to this concept, it's that one bad axle puts the entire consist out of service. There are plenty of examples of the basic concept - unit trains a case in point - but even though the consists generally stay together, the failure of a single car does not disable the entire consist. The bad car can usually be easily removed from the consist and the rest of the train can continue. Kneiling probably didn't consider the possibility of three mile long land barges, either. I do suppose it would be possible to couple up several of his consists, however.
Euclid That referred to ships being a single transportation machine, as opposed to contemporary trains being a compostion of motive power units and loose car rolling stock.
If there's a downside to this concept, it's that one bad axle puts the entire consist out of service.
There are plenty of examples of the basic concept - unit trains a case in point - but even though the consists generally stay together, the failure of a single car does not disable the entire consist. The bad car can usually be easily removed from the consist and the rest of the train can continue.
Kneiling probably didn't consider the possibility of three mile long land barges, either. I do suppose it would be possible to couple up several of his consists, however.
Kneiling's concept was for basically flat cars that could accommodate any load because the loads would be in containers. He called the trains "land ships" as though they were like container ships. You bring the container and the ship sails with it.
And just because the flat cars are connected with drawbars, does not mean they cannot be separeted to remove a car that needs repair. The drawbars still have pins. Just call the roving conductor if any special service is required.
Integral trains seem quite impracticle.
Still in training.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
As I recall, Kneiling's concept also included traction motors distribued on the rolling stock throughout the train. I am not sure where he intended the prime movers to be located. But the idea was to elimante in-train forces and slack action by using the drawbars and perfectly distrubted motive power. I recall that he called these trains, "Land Ships." That referred to ships being a single transportation machine, as opposed to contemporary trains being a compostion of motive power units and loose car rolling stock.
Integral trains were a concept pushed by John G. Kneiling. See the January 1968 issue of TRAINS for a general description of the concept. The basics involved motive power and cars as a solid unit linked by drawbars. The cars were either container flats, covered hoppers or heavy duty flats for steel loads. The concept also included terminal designs for quick turnaround.
What do you mean by "integral trains?"
CMStPnP: My error and apologies. I stand corrected.
charlie hebdoPretty far off. The IC did not serve Louisville. L&N did not serve Chicago until they acquired part of the C&EI.
As stated earlier and factually, Milwaukee only entered Indiana for the coal fields and to get access to the coal. It never reached Louisville until the 1970's but instead it's patchwork of Southern Indiana lines stopped short of the border with KY. It hauled coal on that line almost exclusively to Chicago. Not a lot of other traffic on it.
Milwaukee Road did not reach Louisville until 1973, well after the merger and as part of the condition of the L&N merger (with Monon). So the whole contention by Mr Sol that the PCE was valuable due to the Louisville connection is almost comedic because it was a coal line for originating coal to haul to Chicago and it really was not until 1973 that it reached Louisville via trackage rights at some point over Conrail most of the way down.
Secondly Illinois Central did serve Louisville from Chicago over a circuitous route via Paducah. IC also served Fort Knox, KY, Hopkinsville, KY (part of it taking over a part of Tennessee Central (TC)..........TC former mainline later served as the rail spur from Hopkinsville, KY to Fort Campbell, KY.....home of the World Famous 101st Airborne).
I lived in Louisville for a time and am pretty familiar with the rail routes there. The line from Louisville to Fort Knox is pretty cool with the grades and trestles as it climbs out of the Ohio River Valley.
CMStPnPPretty sure L&N had the Chicago to Louisville traffic for the most part, along with Illinois Central.
Pretty far off. The IC did not serve Louisville. L&N did not serve Chicago until they acquired part of the C&EI.
SD60MAC9500Indeed. Wyoming's lower mine cost, thicker seams closer to surface is the advantage Wyoming has over Montana. Though MILW should have tried to work with what was available lacking a Wyoming connection. When it comes to surface mining most Montanan mines are surface mines. Aside from the poorly conducted Booz Hamilton Allen study.. Here's how I would've proceeded. If people were "supposedly" concerned about competition in the region.. Abandon and spinoff everything west of Terry, MT as what would ultimately happen. Dump both deficit ridden Chicago-Lousiville, and Iowa mains. Slash and spinoff 75% of the branchline network. Leaving a core, Chicago-Milwaukee-Twin Cities-Montana, Chicago-KC, Montana-KC routes. The South Dakota Lines can be pruned as well. Most of that traffic moves to the PNW anyhow. Intead of 11 Western Gateways MILW only gets one gateway. I'd give MILW trackage rights via Terry to Billings then up the Great Falls line to Sweet Grass/Coutts to allow interchange with CP. MILW could build it's own branch lines off the BN line to serve coal mines in Roundup area. As well the same for grain gathering branches around Lewiston and the Great Falls area. Acquire a 4RL beef up the Montana-Midwest route and make it a coal conduit for interchange(s) in Chicago, and points south at KCMO. Possibly even send coal for export to Vancouver via CP at Sweet Grass/Coutts. MILW originated Grain from Central Montana, South Dakota can go for interchange to CP via export at Vancouver, B.C.. Of course even with all these "what if's". I don't see the MILW surviving any longer than it did. Also CP was experiencing a traffic boom on it's western lines with capacity becoming scarce. So they may not have been able to accommodate the MILW traffic. I imagine the timeline played out as it should concerning the MILW..
My two cents.....
BN in my opinion was not a huge competitor for the Milwaukee Road during the time of the PCE. It is almost silly to claim that since all the PCE employee interviews I posted has a point of view of coexistence between BN and Milwaukee. In fact quite a few of those PCE Milwaukee employees came over from NP and the Hill lines prior to the BN merger. So I don't buy into BN as a fierce competitor. I look at the BN merger as an attempt to save some of the merged lines from bankruptcy vs a merger to dominate the Pacific NW market.
Second point is, Mr Sol is the first person I met that talked about Chicago to Louisville with a straight face. You can look at any coffee table book on the Milwaukee Road regarding the pictures of that line as well as route map. It was a patch work of trackage rights and various unrelated lines patched together by routes Milwaukee could run on. It was not a serious mainline operation. In fact Milwaukee's purpose of the line originally was to get access to the coal fields on lines in Southern Indiana vs serving Louisville per se. The most celebrated client they could land in Louisville was "Louisville Slugger" baseball bat company and just looking at a baseball bat and the capacity of a railroad car......I doubt that was a gold mine of traffic. I also doubt heavily the assertions that through traffic used this route or it was a money maker. I read Southern Railway was interested in making it a joint line with Milwaukee but Milwaukee did not have the money to do so and Southern railway was concerned with the patchwork of traffic rights.....some granted by it's competitors. Pretty sure L&N had the Chicago to Louisville traffic for the most part, along with Illinois Central.
Milwaukee had a relationship with Southern Railway I do not fully understand but Southern was one of the big locomotive lease providers and so was Chessie System during the bad winter of 1977 that bad ordered a large part of the Milwaukee's ageing locomotive fleet. BN didn't lease Milwaukee anything and only BN pool power for Coal Trains ran on Milwaukee. Likewise UP and SP did not lease to Milwaukee. GT leased some locos to Milwaukee as well.
CP would still preference the Soo - it gets them home to the CP transcon in fewer miles.
The idea of a minimum MGT is, I think, key. Lines West didn't have anywhere near 20 MGT fifty years ago, and doubtful even today they could source enough traffic to break even.
And even if they did, say in a world of model railroad economics with bottomless CAP-EX and OP-EX budgets providing new sub-grade, ballast, CWR, 10000ft sidings, power switches, PTC, notched or day-lighted tunnels, strengthened bridges and culverts, and with enough crews and locomotives to move it. The Lines West were so poorly profiled that network fluidity would seize up well before moving enough tonnage to make it profitable.
The thing was an impossibility.
Erik_Mag SD60MAC9500 Both BN and MILW traverse(d) through significant lignite/sub-bituminous/bituminous deposits in eastern/central Montana. Milwaukee failed to find captive bulk traffic. Also consider there was ample time to develop this traffic before the state of Montana put a severance tax on coal beginning in 1975. I imagine this tax is what helped push the coal boom into Wyoming for the most part. With enactment of The Clean Air Act had MILW capitalized on Montana deposits. They probably could have provided some competition with BN/CNW PRB. I think you are right on the part I underlined. The Milw had a pretty good profile for getting the coal in the Roundup area to back east, but the track was in pretty bad shape. If the severance tax had not been passed or had a lower rate for underground mines (e.g. Roundup), there's a reasonable chance that the Milw line east of Roundup would have survived for a few more decades. I do remember hearing some of the Milw employees in Miles City talking about the Roundup coal prospects back in the 73 to 75 timeframe.
SD60MAC9500 Both BN and MILW traverse(d) through significant lignite/sub-bituminous/bituminous deposits in eastern/central Montana. Milwaukee failed to find captive bulk traffic. Also consider there was ample time to develop this traffic before the state of Montana put a severance tax on coal beginning in 1975. I imagine this tax is what helped push the coal boom into Wyoming for the most part. With enactment of The Clean Air Act had MILW capitalized on Montana deposits. They probably could have provided some competition with BN/CNW PRB.
Both BN and MILW traverse(d) through significant lignite/sub-bituminous/bituminous deposits in eastern/central Montana. Milwaukee failed to find captive bulk traffic. Also consider there was ample time to develop this traffic before the state of Montana put a severance tax on coal beginning in 1975. I imagine this tax is what helped push the coal boom into Wyoming for the most part. With enactment of The Clean Air Act had MILW capitalized on Montana deposits. They probably could have provided some competition with BN/CNW PRB.
I think you are right on the part I underlined. The Milw had a pretty good profile for getting the coal in the Roundup area to back east, but the track was in pretty bad shape. If the severance tax had not been passed or had a lower rate for underground mines (e.g. Roundup), there's a reasonable chance that the Milw line east of Roundup would have survived for a few more decades.
I do remember hearing some of the Milw employees in Miles City talking about the Roundup coal prospects back in the 73 to 75 timeframe.
Indeed. Wyoming's lower mine cost, thicker seams closer to surface is the advantage Wyoming has over Montana. Though MILW should have tried to work with what was available lacking a Wyoming connection. When it comes to surface mining most Montanan mines are surface mines.
Aside from the poorly conducted Booz Hamilton Allen study.. Here's how I would've proceeded. If people were "supposedly" concerned about competition in the region..
Abandon and spinoff everything west of Terry, MT as what would ultimately happen. Dump both deficit ridden Chicago-Lousiville, and Iowa mains. Slash and spinoff 75% of the branchline network. Leaving a core, Chicago-Milwaukee-Twin Cities-Montana, Chicago-KC, Montana-KC routes. The South Dakota Lines can be pruned as well. Most of that traffic moves to the PNW anyhow.
Intead of 11 Western Gateways MILW only gets one gateway. I'd give MILW trackage rights via Terry to Billings then up the Great Falls line to Sweet Grass/Coutts to allow interchange with CP. MILW could build it's own branch lines off the BN line to serve coal mines in Roundup area. As well the same for grain gathering branches around Lewiston and the Great Falls area.
Acquire a 4RL beef up the Montana-Midwest route and make it a coal conduit for interchange(s) in Chicago, and points south at KCMO. Possibly even send coal for export to Vancouver via CP at Sweet Grass/Coutts.
MILW originated Grain from Central Montana, South Dakota can go for interchange to CP via export at Vancouver, B.C..
Of course even with all these "what if's". I don't see the MILW surviving any longer than it did. Also CP was experiencing a traffic boom on it's western lines with capacity becoming scarce. So they may not have been able to accommodate the MILW traffic. I imagine the timeline played out as it should concerning the MILW..
Why does this thread still require a two-step to open?
Tree has created a new thread specifically for whining, arguing and speculating.
So this thread could, hopefully, go back to being about the MILW western expansion.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.