JPS1Admittedly, I played in the big leagues
Well Swift going over to UP isn't the biggest shock in my eye's and here's why. Swift is run by the same group that controls Knight and a couple other companies. The Moyer family is known for 3 things in the OTR industry. First off is screwing up training so badly that the internet is full of memes of Swift screw ups that are legendary. 2nd is having some of the slowest trucks on the road. Swift literally in the 90s had to be threatened with a FMCSA shutdown to increase their speed from 56 mph. Yes they had them governed that slow. Lastly is being one of the lowest paying carriers in the freaking world. A driver there starts out at less than 30 cents a mile.
JPS1 If anyone believes certifications are unimportant, I dare you to jump into an airplane with a pilot that has not completed the requirements for at least a private pilot's license.
Shadow the Cats owner Well Swift going over to UP isn't the biggest shock in my eye's and here's why. Swift is run by the same group that controls Knight and a couple other companies. The Moyer family is known for 3 things in the OTR industry. First off is screwing up training so badly that the internet is full of memes of Swift screw ups that are legendary. 2nd is having some of the slowest trucks on the road. Swift literally in the 90s had to be threatened with a FMCSA shutdown to increase their speed from 56 mph. Yes they had them governed that slow. Lastly is being one of the lowest paying carriers in the freaking world. A driver there starts out at less than 30 cents a mile.
I agree about Swift. I think BNSF is pruning its IM network by dumping low paying contracts as they come up for expiration. They have the top dogs JBH and Schneider.
Looks like UP is making the news in more ways than one...
SD60MAC9500 Looks like UP is making the news in more ways than one...
Just surprised that UP is storing the engines where they can be seen by the public that then generates the questions of why they are there.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
SD60MAC9500 Shadow the Cats owner Well Swift going over to UP isn't the biggest shock in my eye's and here's why. Swift is run by the same group that controls Knight and a couple other companies. The Moyer family is known for 3 things in the OTR industry. First off is screwing up training so badly that the internet is full of memes of Swift screw ups that are legendary. 2nd is having some of the slowest trucks on the road. Swift literally in the 90s had to be threatened with a FMCSA shutdown to increase their speed from 56 mph. Yes they had them governed that slow. Lastly is being one of the lowest paying carriers in the freaking world. A driver there starts out at less than 30 cents a mile. I agree about Swift. I think BNSF is pruning its IM network by dumping low paying contracts as they come up for expiration. They have the top dogs JBH and Schneider.
I have to laugh a couple weeks back I had a newly hired driver come into my office. He had done his training through Swift survived his year there and then jumped ship to us. His father is a driver here also but at the time we didn't have any openings. I have had some retirements in the last few weeks. The son comes up to me and said being here is like going to a five star hotel and restaurant all the time. He also said that Swift needs to have it's authority yanked over some of the things that they're doing over there. He's filing a whistle blower complaint with the FMCSA over their lack of training his trainer had been a OTR driver for 2 months total time from when he got his CDL and how Swift changes their drivers electronic logbooks after the drivers have turned them in so they can run them more.
Shadow the Cats owner SD60MAC9500 Shadow the Cats owner Well Swift going over to UP isn't the biggest shock in my eye's and here's why. Swift is run by the same group that controls Knight and a couple other companies. The Moyer family is known for 3 things in the OTR industry. First off is screwing up training so badly that the internet is full of memes of Swift screw ups that are legendary. 2nd is having some of the slowest trucks on the road. Swift literally in the 90s had to be threatened with a FMCSA shutdown to increase their speed from 56 mph. Yes they had them governed that slow. Lastly is being one of the lowest paying carriers in the freaking world. A driver there starts out at less than 30 cents a mile. I agree about Swift. I think BNSF is pruning its IM network by dumping low paying contracts as they come up for expiration. They have the top dogs JBH and Schneider. I have to laugh a couple weeks back I had a newly hired driver come into my office. He had done his training through Swift survived his year there and then jumped ship to us. His father is a driver here also but at the time we didn't have any openings. I have had some retirements in the last few weeks. The son comes up to me and said being here is like going to a five star hotel and restaurant all the time. He also said that Swift needs to have it's authority yanked over some of the things that they're doing over there. He's filing a whistle blower complaint with the FMCSA over their lack of training his trainer had been a OTR driver for 2 months total time from when he got his CDL and how Swift changes their drivers electronic logbooks after the drivers have turned them in so they can run them more.
For the most part when I am making long distance trips it is my preference to start the trip in the 11 PM - Midnight range and drive through the night with a much reduced volume of traffic on the highways.
The one thing I notice when nature makes its call and I have to utilize a Interstate Rest Area - the Rest Area are FULL to overflowing with trucks - trucks that I presume are taking the time for the Electronic Log Book required rest periods. In view of the ELB rest requirements has the trucking industry interceded with the states and the federal governmnet to have the size and number of Rest Area's expanded as with the adoption of the ELB it seems that Rest Areas have become the designated 'motel' for truckers?
Once the sun come up, the Rest Areas return to being areas for the non-commercial traveling public, with few OTR rigs being sighted.
JPS1 Train length has increased 16 percent. OK! What is the frequency distribution of the increase in train lengths? What is the mean, median, and standard deviation of the array? I can only offer anecdotal evidence. There 16 percent includes locals and probably yard to yard transfers. Those bring the length down. I used to think a manifest 9000 ft and over was a big train. Now that's almost a "baby" train. It's normal now to see most manifests 12000 to 15000 ft. They double up coal trains in fits and starts. You see a lot of double upped trains, than you see a handful. Accidents have increased. OK! What is the accident rate per train mile? Or ton mile? I would say the incident rate has risen. That is, more undesired emergencies either from a dynamiter in the train or train make up leading to busted knuckles and pulled out drawbars. I read our recrew report. It's written by managers in dispatching, and most of the trains with the knuckles or drawbars are the supersized manifests, which usually block a route for any other train to get by them. A few lead to derailments, some major, most will never make the news. Locomotives have been idled. OK! What percentage of the fleet has been idled? I don't know off hand, but that information shouldn't be hard to find. I'm sure there are railfan sites that have that information. I do know that we're short on power. If a unit fails, and there seems to be an uptick in locomotive failures, or a unit is disqualifed from leading because of lack of cab signals or PTC it's hard to find a new one to replace it. One this morning had to turn their power (on a wye) but the new leader was found to have a crank case overpressure failure. It used to be fairly rare to hear that fault, but there's at least one in every recrew report now. I don't know if they've reopened their major diesel shop in North Little Rock. I've heard it may be partially reopened. I've also heard mechanics at intermediate facilities have been robbing parts off engines in storage to keep others running. Employee morale is down. OK! How is it measured? And what are the statistical outputs? Well, just about every field employee feels at least some animosity of what's going on. From the attendence policy designed to fire people, thereby reducing head count, to short staffing extra and pool boards. I recently, and not for the first time, had to wait for a conductor to be available. They keep the guaranteed boards short, often to the point that half the board is unavailable because of the Federal Requirement to be marked off for 48/72 hours because of working 6/7 starts without a 24 hour or more break between duty shifts. One engineer I deadheaded with said he didn't care if the place (the yard office) burned down while he was gone. That sentiment is more common than one would think. UP didn't make the number one (or number three depending on report cited) worst company to work for. I myself often will refer to the fact that you can't spell stupid without two key letters. (That saying was popular a few years back before morale got worse.) About two years into my career I had an opprotunity to go to the Iowa Interstate Railroad. I had been trying for years to get on with them. I hadn't renewed an application for quite awhile, but they still had the old ones and called me. We were in the process of buying a house, too far from the IAIS terminal, and I didn't want to back out and things were going pretty good where I was. That was a mistake I still kick myself for. I should've went then. I'd be in the top tier of seniority and could hold almost any job or terminal on the IAIS. The news media, along with a lot of other folks, jump on raw statistics without putting them in context. For someone who understands math and statistics, they are meaningless. Arthur Benjamin, who is a Professor of Mathematics at Harvey Mudd College, believes that every educated American should have two units of Algebra and two units of statistics. Algebra is a foundational math. And statistics is important because they show up in the media nearly every day. And more often than not they are misstated. It is important for people to see the flaws in the reporting of statistics. Or the absence thereof. I'm sure the news story is a bit slanted. They are talking to a union official after all, but the railroad's response is also slanted. That's normal, any group's representative is going to play up their version, down play any opponent's version. But much of what was said fairly reflects the average field employee's view. Jeff
The ELB is the latest change in the HOS regulation mandatory for trucks older than 2000. However the biggest problem with the HOS regulation isn't the ELB itself it's the freaking clock. For all of us not driving an OTR truck and working this is what the clock is like. The second you feet left the door of your house bang it's started now you have a grand total of 14 hours to get everything done work commuting everything else for the day. The second you hit 14 hours outside your home your car sends a signal to your police department in our case your running illegal and subject to arrest. Nothing is able to stop this timer from counting down to zero. That in a nutshell is what these drivers are working under. The only thing that stops the clock is sleeping for 10 hours straight.
Jeff,
Thanks for your insights. Your writing skills are amongst the best on these forums. It's like you might have been an English teacher or English major before taking up railroading.
Shadow the Cats ownerThe ELB is the latest change in the HOS regulation mandatory for trucks older than 2000. However the biggest problem with the HOS regulation isn't the ELB itself it's the freaking clock. For all of us not driving an OTR truck and working this is what the clock is like. The second you feet left the door of your house bang it's started now you have a grand total of 14 hours to get everything done work commuting everything else for the day. The second you hit 14 hours outside your home your car sends a signal to your police department in our case your running illegal and subject to arrest. Nothing is able to stop this timer from counting down to zero. That in a nutshell is what these drivers are working under. The only thing that stops the clock is sleeping for 10 hours straight.
Same as the railroad HOS - just on the railroad the clock starts with the crews official 'on duty' time and the clock clicks down for 12 hours. If the crew doesn't make their destination within the 12 hour period - they are 'on the law' and cannot legally move the train from where it stopped at 12 hours. A Relief Crew must be called to board the train where it stopped 'on the law' and complete its movement to its destination. The original crew may get separate transportation form their train to their destination or they may wait for the Relief Crew to arrive and use the Relief Crew's transportation means to destination. The time difference between the crew's HOS time and their final relief time is termed 'Limbo Time'. There is a monthly limit of 30 hours on a crew member's cumulative Limbo Time. Upon marking off crew members are to get 10 hours UNDISTURBED rest, if the crew accrued Limbo Time, that amount of time is added to the undisturbed rest time. ie. if the crew marked off with a hour of Limbo Time they would get 11 hours undisturbed time. Crews cannot be called to report for duty during the undisturbed time. The normal call is two hours, ie. a crew can be called at 11 AM to report On Duty at 1 PM (certain local agreements may have different provisions). While crew members don't have individual ELB's the Dispatching System (CADS) performs the same function concerning policing the Hours of Service.
There are further aspects of the railroad Hours of Service laws that are too lengthy to try to explain. Of course, the railroads are not depending upon Interstate Rest Area's to provide the location for their crews to obtain the legal rest period as iis the OTR industry.
It is possible to pause the clock - we do it on a regular basis.
Occasionally we'll have a trip that has an early departure from Utica. The trip is two hours, plus prep time, and the crew may handle things like servicing the train and doing their runaround on arrival at Thendara.
Once that's done, they mark off for at least four hours off the property before returning to duty for the trip back to Utica. If they stayed on duty, they wouldn't be able to finish the return trip.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
SD60MAC9500I agree about Swift. I think BNSF is pruning its IM network by dumping low paying contracts as they come up for expiration. They have the top dogs JBH and Schneider.
I think that would be smart, if that what was going on but......why not accomodate both? Is there a finite limit of traffic BNSF can handle?
tree68It is possible to pause the clock - we do it on a regular basis. Occasionally we'll have a trip that has an early departure from Utica. The trip is two hours, plus prep time, and the crew may handle things like servicing the train and doing their runaround on arrival at Thendara. Once that's done, they mark off for at least four hours off the property before returning to duty for the trip back to Utica. If they stayed on duty, they wouldn't be able to finish the return trip.
I was trying to keep my explanation simple. When I was working, we frequently used the 'respite' 4 hour provision for crews working between Connellsvill and New Castle, PA. They would operate a train from Connellsville (Home Terminal) to New Castle in 6 hours or less - take the 4 hour respite and go back on duty to operate at train from New Castle back to Connellsville.
BaltACDI was trying to keep my explanation simple.
And you did. HOS is a real pain to track when you get into the weeds. Used to be that we showed up, ran trains, and were done. Now, if we help out by sweeping out the station between trips or at the end of the day, it's "co-mingled service" and has to be recorded. There's talk of having to record dead-head time from our assigned terminal, even if we drove to the work location (an hour away) from home - in the other direction.
BaltACD When I was working, we frequently used the 'respite' 4 hour provision for crews working between Connellsvill and New Castle, PA. They would operate a train from Connellsville (Home Terminal) to New Castle in 6 hours or less - take the 4 hour respite and go back on duty to operate at train from New Castle back to Connellsville.
Great real world example.
CMStPnP
You should save your snide responses for someone that cares. I certaintly don't! You appear to have a compulsion to levy a personal attack against me or anyone that you disagree with!!!!!!
A compulsion to attack someone that you have never met and don't know anything about is sick!!!!!
CMStPnP SD60MAC9500 I agree about Swift. I think BNSF is pruning its IM network by dumping low paying contracts as they come up for expiration. They have the top dogs JBH and Schneider. I think that would be smart, if that what was going on but......why not accomodate both? Is there a finite limit of traffic BNSF can handle?
SD60MAC9500 I agree about Swift. I think BNSF is pruning its IM network by dumping low paying contracts as they come up for expiration. They have the top dogs JBH and Schneider.
There are finite limits to the traffic any carrier can handle given the physical plant and employment level they staff the physical plant with.
Carriers do not make those limits public.
Since BNSF has benefitted from UP's practices and attitude for many years, I don't think they are pruning their tree. There has been talk going around that we need to start regaining business. There have been some changes made the last year or so, but just when it seems that real change is beginning they come up with some new cost cutting measure. One step forward, two steps back.
I'd like to think that maybe Omaha has finally realized that they need more business. They may have finally realized that they can't squeeze more pennies out of each dollar, so they need to bring in more dollars. If an e-mail sent to management is true, this may be the case.
Around the first part of last year BNSF offered the UP 8 coal contracts. They were having trouble servicing those contracts due to capacity constraights. UP said they wouldn't take them at the price BNSF negotiated for them. Many, including local management, thought that was short sighted as our traffic was way down at the time. This was before Covid started affecting traffic levels.
Jeff
Even if they get new business - who is going to move it?
With many companies paying higher wages (and having 100% better working hours)- it's going to be tough to get new conductors.
They have a hard enough time hiring trainees here, and even harder time keeping them from quitting right away. Railroad wages (and def'n working conditions) are not keeping up.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Around the first part of last year BNSF offered the UP 8 coal contracts. They were having trouble servicing those contracts due to capacity constraights. UP said they wouldn't take them at the price BNSF negotiated for them. Many, including local management, thought that was short sighted as our traffic was way down at the time.
Well, UP might have been right. BNSF could then turn around back to the client and state they offered the contract to a competitor and it was declined. Wouldn't that be a good opening renegotiating position?
I've done that before myself. I was told I was not working hard enough at selling something and offered to sell the item for $1 for anyone that wanted it within 45 days of the offer. Nobody took it because the product I was selling sucked. Lots of lookers though. I could then go back to the supplier of the product with the scenario and say.........look, nobody would buy it for $1. Which stopped the accusations I was not trying hard enough and realization there wasn't a market.
jeffhergert SD60MAC9500 I agree about Swift. I think BNSF is pruning its IM network by dumping low paying contracts as they come up for expiration. They have the top dogs JBH and Schneider. Since BNSF has benefitted from UP's practices and attitude for many years, I don't think they are pruning their tree. There has been talk going around that we need to start regaining business. There have been some changes made the last year or so, but just when it seems that real change is beginning they come up with some new cost cutting measure. One step forward, two steps back. I'd like to think that maybe Omaha has finally realized that they need more business. They may have finally realized that they can't squeeze more pennies out of each dollar, so they need to bring in more dollars. If an e-mail sent to management is true, this may be the case. Around the first part of last year BNSF offered the UP 8 coal contracts. They were having trouble servicing those contracts due to capacity constraights. UP said they wouldn't take them at the price BNSF negotiated for them. Many, including local management, thought that was short sighted as our traffic was way down at the time. This was before Covid started affecting traffic levels. Jeff
I was speaking specifically about their intermodal network. I should've said that instead of using an acronym.
Swift was never a big contract for BNSF. It might be about capacity. However if BNSF is looking to increase margins on the IM side of its business then letting it jettison was the right choice. This future available capacity could now be filled with more; Estes, ABF, YRC, JBH, Schneider, and/or Amazon business which brings more to the bottom line.
SD60MAC9500 jeffhergert SD60MAC9500 I agree about Swift. I think BNSF is pruning its IM network by dumping low paying contracts as they come up for expiration. They have the top dogs JBH and Schneider. Since BNSF has benefitted from UP's practices and attitude for many years, I don't think they are pruning their tree. There has been talk going around that we need to start regaining business. There have been some changes made the last year or so, but just when it seems that real change is beginning they come up with some new cost cutting measure. One step forward, two steps back. I'd like to think that maybe Omaha has finally realized that they need more business. They may have finally realized that they can't squeeze more pennies out of each dollar, so they need to bring in more dollars. If an e-mail sent to management is true, this may be the case. Around the first part of last year BNSF offered the UP 8 coal contracts. They were having trouble servicing those contracts due to capacity constraights. UP said they wouldn't take them at the price BNSF negotiated for them. Many, including local management, thought that was short sighted as our traffic was way down at the time. This was before Covid started affecting traffic levels. Jeff I was speaking specifically about their intermodal network. I should've said that instead of using an acronym.
zugmann Even if they get new business - who is going to move it? With many companies paying higher wages (and having 100% better working hours)- it's going to be tough to get new conductors. They have a hard enough time hiring trainees here, and even harder time keeping them from quitting right away. Railroad wages (and def'n working conditions) are not keeping up.
I can't argue about the working conditions, especially with the PSR mindset that all the worker bees need to work all the time. But when it comes to pay, there aren't many places that still pay as good as the class ones. Even some of the regionals and short lines pay good.
What's keeping people away from coming back when recalled or not hiring out in the first place is the attitude of furloughing people at the drop of a hat. By the time they get someone "fully" trained, they furlough them because the extreme need has subsided. Instead of temporarily putting helpers on certain assignments that could really use an extra person, they cut them off. Expecting that they will come back when really needed again.
I was always told years ago, expect to be furloughed the first 5 or 6 years. As time went past, the lengths of time cut off would become shorter. That was back when most new hires were within a few years out of high school and didn't have established a family to support. (35 was the age limit for hiring out with no railroad experience, 45 with railroad experience. Depending on craft being hired for.) Now they want to hire family people, with a few years of either college or work experience, because they tend to be more stable. That conflicts with someone who could weather a furlough by picking up small jobs here or there. If you find a decent job, do you leave it hoping you can hang on the railroad or stay with it and tell the railroad good bye?
jeffhergertI can't argue about the working conditions, especially with the PSR mindset that all the worker bees need to work all the time. But when it comes to pay, there aren't many places that still pay as good as the class ones. Even some of the regionals and short lines pay good. What's keeping people away from coming back when recalled or not hiring out in the first place is the attitude of furloughing people at the drop of a hat. By the time they get someone "fully" trained, they furlough them because the extreme need has subsided. Instead of temporarily putting helpers on certain assignments that could really use an extra person, they cut them off. Expecting that they will come back when really needed again. I was always told years ago, expect to be furloughed the first 5 or 6 years. As time went past, the lengths of time cut off would become shorter. That was back when most new hires were within a few years out of high school and didn't have established a family to support. (35 was the age limit for hiring out with no railroad experience, 45 with railroad experience. Depending on craft being hired for.) Now they want to hire family people, with a few years of either college or work experience, because they tend to be more stable. That conflicts with someone who could weather a furlough by picking up small jobs here or there. If you find a decent job, do you leave it hoping you can hang on the railroad or stay with it and tell the railroad good bye? Jeff
The age limits for recruiting for the military is so you can put in enough time to earn a decent pension before you retire vs being put out on the street at 55 or 60 with a tiny pension payment that you can't live on. Presume the railroads do it for the same reason. Also the physical demands of the job favor the younger age groups vs the older age groups. The Army toyed with higher enlistment ages during the post 2003 wars. I think the first time enlistment age rose from 35 max to 45 max. They ran into medical issues with those in their 40's with hairline bone fractures from a sudden increase in activity from a former sedentary life. Also hip and lower back medical issues as well from backpack weights, older muscle groups and joints not as accepting of abuse. I think the Military is back at max age of 35 or 30 now, forget which but they have abandoned over 40 for a first time enlistment as not realistic.
The propensity to layoff or furlough people is an issue for the Union / Management contract agreement. GM did OK with their guarantees of full or almost full employment for assembly line UAW employees when car manufacturing got slow they would offer them jobs in facilities maintenence, auto convention setup and breakdown, office relocation services, etc. I am not sure that the defined railroad crafts would be flexible enough for that type of deal but it's really up to the Union to try it. UAW seemed happy with it. I thought Amtrak had something like that to protect Long Distance train employees but I have only heard of it in these forums.....have no clue what the Amtrak contracts provide.
The situation described inthe GM/UAW example would be similar to operating personnel being assigned to shopcraft positions instead of being laid off. That isn't likely to happen anytime soon since it would require negotiations among several unions.
CSSHEGEWISCH The situation described inthe GM/UAW example would be similar to operating personnel being assigned to shopcraft positions instead of being laid off. That isn't likely to happen anytime soon since it would require negotiations among several unions.
My late father worked for GM at their Michigan Proving Grounds. Most GMPG jobs were non-union.
He was assigned to do some work, I believe for a demonstration of some sort, at GM's Tech Center in Warren. As he told the story, when his crew went to plug something into an outlet, they were informed that it was a union function, so they'd need the appropriate craft to do the task...
That was fifty years ago...
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