Somewhere recently (I can't find it now), Jeff, I think, referred to a "blind siding." My recollection is that it was in the context of either signaling, or train orders and track warrants.
I found this definition on CSX's Railroad Dictionary:
A rail siding used for the placement or storing of cars at a point where no agent or rail representative is assigned. Cars placed and pulled at these locations are reported by conductors to the agent having jurisdiction over the blind siding.
First of all, this definition seems to directly contradict itself. The first sentence basically says nobody has jurisdiction; but the second sentence says conductors report the the person who has jurisdicrion. O. Kay. ... ??
In an event, I don't see how any of that has to do with signals or track permissions. So does the term "blind siding" mean something different at UP than it does at CSX? And if so, what?
Still in training.
I only ever used 'blind siding' to refer to one that didn't have a switch to the main at each end. It is interesting to learn that there is a different, and correct, other meaning.
I don't see a contradiction in the definition. The first part of the definition refers to an agent or representative particularly assigned to that station or location. The second part refers to an agent like a 'district manager', with responsibility for a wider territory including 'sidings' or other points too small to justify a full-time or direct-report operator.
At one time Agents were responsible to physically check the the cars on the tracks that were a part of the Agents 'direct territory'. When tracks outside the Agents direct territory were assigned to the Agency, they were 'blind' to the Agent since he could not walk ouside the Agent's Office and physically check those track(s). This was in a much simpler time before the adoption of the automobile as primary means of transportation.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
A blind siding doesn't have an agent and/or operator assigned. In time table and train order territory, a train with orders to meet another train that becomes very late is stuck unless there is a means of communication to contact the dispatcher. By the end of TT&TO, most main lines had at least a dispatcher's phone box/booth at otherwise blind sidings. I know RI time tables instructed train crews to contact the dispatcher, if possible, after 15 minutes unless the expected train was seen to be approaching.
I think I mentioned blind sidings in regards to when a train crew could copy their own train orders. If the siding had an operator and he was off duty, the crew wasn't supposed to copy their own orders. The operator was supposed to be called out to copy them. This was a work rule, not a railroad operating rule. If no operator, and no means of communication, train orders could be sent on another train or by having the operator at the nearest station drive over to the blind siding.
With radios becoming more reliable and coverage more complete, direct dispatcher to train became possible. The work rule on crews copying train orders was eventually removed. This all led to the change from TT&TO to track warrants/direct traffic control and their equivalents.
I have a RI form called a Blind Station Report. Local freight conductors were supposed to fill it out for the blind stations on their run and give it to the specific agent who had jurisdiction for the station(s).
Jeff
Overmod I only ever used 'blind siding' to refer to one that didn't have a switch to the main at each end. It is interesting to learn that there are other meanings. I don't see a contradiction in the definition. The first part of the definition refers to an agent or representative particularly assigned to that track (probably of course together with others). The second part refers to an agent like a 'district manager', with responsibility for a wider territory including functions too small to justify a full-time or direct-report representative or 'delegate'.
I only ever used 'blind siding' to refer to one that didn't have a switch to the main at each end. It is interesting to learn that there are other meanings.
I don't see a contradiction in the definition. The first part of the definition refers to an agent or representative particularly assigned to that track (probably of course together with others). The second part refers to an agent like a 'district manager', with responsibility for a wider territory including functions too small to justify a full-time or direct-report representative or 'delegate'.
In the "prototype of everything", so there is a 12"-foot scale prototype for picking my train cars off the main track and putting them on a stretch of unconnected track on the layout?
Does the prototype have some kind of outsized version of a PiggyPacker that can grab a freight car from one track and then set it down on another track? And are there rerailer ramps where it can slide the car back and forth so its wheel flanges are set inside the rail gauge?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Paul MilenkovicIn the "prototype of everything", so there is a 12"-foot scale prototype for picking my train cars off the main track and putting them on a stretch of unconnected track on the layout?
Just for the record, in the context you brought up: There were some examples where railroad cars were moved off 'track' for unloading, the one that comes to mind being a facility on the lower East River in New York that provided cars on lighters where there was no connecting 'railroad' to move them onto Manhattan at all. As I recall there were facilities in London where freight waggons were shifted laterally out of trains, and even 'elevated', to places of loading or unloading; at least one station in France did lateral shifting of passenger cars hundreds of times a day.
I understand railroad lingo is regional, but I've never heard a stub-ended siding referred to as a blind one. I've never heard of a blind siding, either, but I've never worked under train orders either.
I've heard stub-ended, dual ended, controlled, and non-controlled sidings.
I thiunk Paul is making light of your choice of words "a switch to the main at each end".
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmannI think Paul is making light of your choice of words "a switch to the main at each end".
It does not matter, because on careful re-reading of what Jeff said, I think my understanding of the term was a mistake, and I am removing it from the discussion so as not to confuse future readers.
Technically, a siding is a track auxilary to the main track used for meeting or passing trains.
Everyone in general conversation, myself included, just tend to call any track outside of yards a siding.
Thank you, gentlemen.
I've always thougt of a siding as having turnouts to a main at each end. And I personaly use the term "stub" or "spur" for single-switch ones.
But I know that doesn't jive with a actual railroader usage, because "industrial sidings" are usually stub-ended. And I'm not really sure what "spur" is technically supposed to mean. Maybe that's something too long to be called a stub-ended siding, but too short to be a branch line?? Or maybe a line that serves only one customer?
A siding is a track parallel to the main that is desiginated as such in the timetable. Its footage or car capacity will also be printed in the timetable.
To me, a "spur" is a track that veers off and does not run parallel to the main track or siding (if there is one at this location). Some spurs are long enough that main track rules are applied to govern movements operating on them.
We have a 6 mile line that was historically considered a separate subdivision, but has been listed as a spur off an adacent subdivision for decades. The is no set criteria for designating such a line as a subdivision or spur, it is up to the railroad. Any important information for spurs will be printed in the "spurs or other tracks" section of that subdivision in the timetable.
"Stub track" means the same up here as in the U.S. We also use the catch-all term "back track" for anything that is not designated as a siding, spur or anything else in the timetable, regardless of how many access points it has to the main, siding, or other tracks.
Historically trains or engines were prohibited from clearing the main at certain locations (which did not have a Dispatcher's phone), but with the advent of improved radio systems these restrictions were removed.
I've never heard the term "blind siding" used up here, even among older heads.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Here is the definition of a "running track:"
A track designated in the timetable upon which movements may be made subject to prescribed signals and rules, or special instructions. OR A track reserved for movement through a yard.
I get the second situation: for running thru a yard.
But the situation listed first doesn't explain much to me. What would be a good example?
That sounds like "subdivision track" (CN) or "cautionary limits" (CP) in the Canadian rules. Basically it is a non-main track with a higher maximum speed (Rule 105 non-main track automatically has a top speed of 15 mph) with a continuation of the timetable mileage. Main track handbrake rules also apply on this type of track, of course before the post-Lac Megantic rule changes there was no difference in this regard.
A "lead" is another term for a track normally reserved for movement through or around a yard, but for speeds and rule purposes a lead is just another yard track.
The requirement to operate at reduced speed (able to stop within half the range of vision) is still applicable when operating on subdivision track or within cautionary limits.
SD70Dude A "lead" is another term for a track normally reserved for movement through or around a yard, but for speeds and rule purposes a lead is just another yard track.
Is this considered the opposite of a "drill" track?
What is a drill track? I've never heard that term before.
SD70DudeWhat is a drill track? I've never heard that term before.
B&O's Bayview Yard in Baltimore had(has) a track at the extreme East end of the yard the extended about 30 or so cars East of the crossovers that connected the yard to #2 (Eastward) Main track - that track was known at the 'Drill Track'. It was the lead that allowed a crew to switch at the East End and provided 'head' room so that the Main Track was not required for normal switching.
Yeah, we would call that a lead or an extension. In hump yards it might be called a pullback track.
Balt & Jeff have the definition of a "Blind Siding" correct.
Local names varied from RR to RR, so, we could go on and on about this. I knew what a "stub" track was, but, we never used the term. We never used a lot of terms that railfans cooked up either, such as "Lashup"!
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This may be as far as things need to go, as I was wrong in conflating 'blind sidings' with any track layout, stub or through, and Jeff (and Balt) have clarified things for Lithonia.
Jim, what did they call a 'dog's-breakfast' consist on N&W? Or did it not matter as long as it could handle the work?
It turns out 'lashup' is a coaching term for a team that is obviously mismatched in some way, and only incidentally connected to what is likely a drag being pulled...
OvermodJim, what did they call a 'dog's-breakfast' consist on N&W? Or did it not matter as long as it could handle the work?
To quote #2, "Never heard of it!"
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