To what extent are short line railroads unionized?
JPS1To what extent are short line railroads unionized?
The formation of Short Lines is a 'Union Busting' exercise. It is taking a property that was covered by a Class 1's existing union agreements and 'selling' it to new owners that have no incentive or intent to take on the provisions of those agreements or the employees covered by them.
The new 'short line' goes about hiring their new workforce with the work rules and pay rates that the short line wants to pay. The pay rates are invariably less than the Class 1 pay rate and the work rules will be entirely different than they were on the Class 1. The only thing that will remain the same for people working job functions that are covered by the Federal Hours of Service regulations will sill be covered by those regulations.
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I would opine that most short line operations are essentially "seat of the pants" financially. For many of the smallest operations, the job of CEO also includes an engineer's card.
A good many shortlines have many miles of track to "nowhere." This track is the source of substantial income when private car owners are looking to store their cars for a while. A thousand cars stored at $1 or $2 per car per day will likely pay the payroll, and then some.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Some of the larger and/or more prosperous short lines have union contracts. For train and engine crews, usually it's held by one union that represents both crafts. As opposed to class one carriers that have separate unions for both crafts. (It's the same for the regionals, both have one union representing both.)
Those short lines owned by one of the holding companies are on an individual basis. One property might be represented, another without. Just as some of those sister companies differ in how profitable they are.
Jeff
BaltACD JPS1 To what extent are short line railroads unionized? The formation of Short Lines is a 'Union Busting' exercise. It is taking a property that was covered by a Class 1's existing union agreements and 'selling' it to new owners that have no incentive or intent to take on the provisions of those agreements or the employees covered by them. The new 'short line' goes about hiring their new workforce with the work rules and pay rates that the short line wants to pay. The pay rates are invariably less than the Class 1 pay rate and the work rules will be entirely different than they were on the Class 1. The only thing that will remain the same for people working job functions that are covered by the Federal Hours of Service regulations will sill be covered by those regulations.
JPS1 To what extent are short line railroads unionized?
Legalizing what amounts to a scab labor force.
If the person that owns the engine (maybe in conjunction with a bank or other lending institution) and the track (also in conjunction with a bank or other lending institution) is also 1/4 of the labor force as the Engineer of the line as well as the CEO, his Wife being the CFO/treasurer/receptionist/janitorial service, and his brother being the conductor/switchman/wheel knocker, and his son as the general laborer because "he knows a lot about Diesel motors" and once took a course in Highschool on " 'lectrical trades ", then I don't see the labor force as being "scabs" if they don't form a Union against themselves.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Semper VaporoIf the person that owns the engine...
Short lines also offer the opportunity to railroad on a fairly regular schedule and gain RR retirement, without many of the inconveniences of Class 1 railroading.
And many are operating on tracks the Class 1's have cast off in the first place...
Some short line companies have tried setting themselves up in a way as to not have to belong to railroad retirement.
jeffhergert Some short line companies have tried setting themselves up in a way as to not have to belong to railroad retirement. Jeff
Along those lines, remember how Guilford/Pan Am tried leasing all their other subsidiaries to Springfield Terminal, essentially making the largest interurban ever, at least for pay and work rule purposes.
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SD70Dude jeffhergert Some short line companies have tried setting themselves up in a way as to not have to belong to railroad retirement. Jeff Along those lines, remember how Guilford/Pan Am tried leasing all their other subsidiaries to Springfield Terminal, essentially making the largest interurban ever, at least for pay and work rule purposes.
BN threatened to do the same many years ago when they wanted to start getting rid of brakemen. They threatened to lease the northern transcon line to the Winona Bridge Company. the entity that on paper owned the Mississippi River bridge.
Jeff, do many railroaders who are union members own common stock of the railroad (Berkshire Hathaway for BNSF) that they work for?
Many BNSF employees sign up for payroll deduction for Berkshire Hathaway stock. I started having a Northern Pacific stock deduction from my paycheck when it was offered about 1968 or so. This continued to the BN and finally BNSF.
Retired clerk from Northtown (Minneapolis)
While B-H is different than others because it's an investment group, it's generally a bad idea to invest too much of your money in your own employer.
Backshop While B-H is different than others because it's an investment group, it's generally a bad idea to invest too much of your money in your own employer.
Very true! And wise to not invest to large a percentage of an equity portfolio in any one or two companies or sectors.
charlie hebdo Backshop While B-H is different than others because it's an investment group, it's generally a bad idea to invest too much of your money in your own employer. Very true! And wise to not invest to large a percentage of an equity portfolio in any one or two companies or sectors.
Like many companies, CN has a employee share investment program, and they match 1/3 of what you invest, up to 6% of your earnings. So your shares have to lose 25% of their value before you lose anything.
Most running trades employees do this, myself included.
CN suspended their contribution after the pandemic started (which was effectively a pay cut for us), but have since reinstated it.
Dad worked for GM at their Proving Grounds. He took part in their stock program - although I have no idea of the details, or how many shares he held when he passed.
At the time (1960's), the US automakers were going concerns. A downturn would be unthinkable.
This is the problem with investing in your own company's stock. Your most common reason that you would need to sell the shares is because you lost your job. The reason that you probably lost your job is that the company was doing lousy. So, right when you need the money the most, is when the shares are worth the least. Every employee, whether they admit it or not, looks at their employer through rose tinted glasses. They think "I wouldn't work for a loser so it's a fine company". No, it's not. Just in the last year, a formerly great company took a dive. Boeing was world-class until the 737 Max debacle. Yes, it's coming back, but nobody would've expected what happened to them
BackshopThey think "I wouldn't work for a loser so it's a fine company". No, it's not.
That can be bitterly true in so many cases. When we moved to Richmond VA 33 years ago Reynolds Metals was a powerhouse employer and a local icon. Then about ten years later the whole thing crashed and burned. Bad upper management decisions, that's all it took. Sometimes that's all it takes.
In fact, there were a number of places I visited over the years on the job and thought "You know? This looks like a pretty good place to work! Nice facilities, good employee morale, the works!" And then a lot of those same places crashed and burned like Reynolds did, and for the same reason.
One thing it taught me was "Don't think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence!"
Flintlock76 Backshop They think "I wouldn't work for a loser so it's a fine company". No, it's not. That can be bitterly true in so many cases. When we moved to Richmond VA 33 years ago Reynolds Metals was a powerhouse employer and a local icon. Then about ten years later the whole thing crashed and burned. Bad upper management decisions, that's all it took. Sometimes that's all it takes. In fact, there were a number of places I visited over the years on the job and thought "You know? This looks like a pretty good place to work! Nice facilities, good employee morale, the works!" And then a lot of those same places crashed and burned like Reynolds did, and for the same reason. One thing it taught me was "Don't think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence!"
Backshop They think "I wouldn't work for a loser so it's a fine company". No, it's not.
The sad thing about most of those 'busts' was that the Senior Management that wrecked the company and the lives of their thousands of employees went into the sunset on the wings of Golden Parachutes as very wealthy individuals, despite all the wreckage they created.
BaltACD Flintlock76 Backshop They think "I wouldn't work for a loser so it's a fine company". No, it's not. That can be bitterly true in so many cases. When we moved to Richmond VA 33 years ago Reynolds Metals was a powerhouse employer and a local icon. Then about ten years later the whole thing crashed and burned. Bad upper management decisions, that's all it took. Sometimes that's all it takes. In fact, there were a number of places I visited over the years on the job and thought "You know? This looks like a pretty good place to work! Nice facilities, good employee morale, the works!" And then a lot of those same places crashed and burned like Reynolds did, and for the same reason. One thing it taught me was "Don't think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence!" The sad thing about most of those 'busts' was that the Senior Management that wrecked the company and the lives of their thousands of employees went into the sunset on the wings of Golden Parachutes as very wealthy individuals, despite all the wreckage they created.
And at least one CEO involved in bankruptcy got golden showers!
The old adage is true. "Never put all your eggs in one basket."
Backshop This is the problem with investing in your own company's stock. Your most common reason that you would need to sell the shares is because you lost your job. The reason that you probably lost your job is that the company was doing lousy. So, right when you need the money the most, is when the shares are worth the least. Every employee, whether they admit it or not, looks at their employer through rose tinted glasses. They think "I wouldn't work for a loser so it's a fine company". No, it's not. Just in the last year, a formerly great company took a dive. Boeing was world-class until the 737 Max debacle. Yes, it's coming back, but nobody would've expected what happened to them
Boeing's decline started longer ago than you think, when the former M-D management started taking over.
And you've obviously never worked for a Class I railroad. We are under no illusions about how inept management is, and yet the company continues to make money in spite of itself. It's almost like working for a cartel, in that we effectively have a monopoly providing something that is in high demand.
I don't have exact statistics, but most railroaders leave this job by retirement, resignation, or being fired.
Having said that, I am under no illusions about how volatile the stock market can be, and over time my shares will end up being converted into other things, like a house.
SD70Dudemost railroaders leave this job by retirement, resignation, or being fired.
Other than being carried out in a body bag, doesn't that sum up the ways people leave all jobs? ???
Lithonia Operator SD70Dude most railroaders leave this job by retirement, resignation, or being fired. Other than being carried out in a body bag, doesn't that sum up the ways people leave all jobs? ???
SD70Dude most railroaders leave this job by retirement, resignation, or being fired.
Yes, as long as the employer remains solvent.
I was simply countering his example of people who are unfortunate enough to see their employment evaporate for reasons that are outside their control.
Of the remaining Class I railroads, when was the last time a core component of any of them went bankrupt? Milwaukee, Rock Island and Penn Central come to mind, and there were warning signs in all those cases for years before they finally took the plunge.
I feel quite comfortable with my current investment in CN stock.
SD70Dude Boeing's decline started longer ago than you think, when the former M-D management started taking over. And you've obviously never worked for a Class I railroad. We are under no illusions about how inept management is, and yet the company continues to make money in spite of itself. I don't have exact statistics, but most railroaders leave this job by retirement, resignation, or being fired.
And you've obviously never worked for a Class I railroad. We are under no illusions about how inept management is, and yet the company continues to make money in spite of itself.
1. We were talking stock prices.
2. You've never been furloughed?
3. Yep, companies make money...until they don't.
4. I'm not sure which Canadian road you work for, but I'm old enough to remember CP and CN both having financial problems, along with CN's predecessors in the states--IC and GTW.
5. Many have also left employment when their line/division was sold/abandoned.
Yes, I've been laid off during slow times. It happens to pretty much everyone here at least once when they are new. But a nice quirk of the seniority system is that they have to recall you before hiring someone else to replace you, and you can also temporarily transfer somewhere else if you can hold there.
Those past financial problems of CN and CP were all during the regulated era, which lasted until about 1990 in Canada. You'll surely recall the Crow Rate, which dragged down both railways along with all the unprofitable branchlines and passenger trains they were forced to continue operating. CN had far more of those than CP, and also had the added burdens of operating the Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island railways, as well as the ferry services for all of Atlantic Canada.
The core freight operations of both railways always made money, and that is what remains today.
If your line is sold or abandoned, you can hire on with the new operator or transfer somewhere else you can hold, as I outlined above. Many employees were also bought out or given early retirement options during the 1990s as the railways tried to reduce their headcounts, I believe a past President/CEO of Illinois Central (before Hunter Harrison) pioneered this approach.
On CN, as part of the Conductor-only/cabooseless train agreement all existing train service employees were guaranteed jobs, and could not be laid off. This protection applied to anyone who was hired before the effective date sometime in 1990.
The privatized and deregulated company has done quite well and continues to do so. I do keep an eye on the numbers and watch for signs of the world changing (this is ttrraaffiicc's cue to tell me to sell out now), but so far the going is still good.
JPS1What are the reasons that someone would go to work for the short line or regional railroad?
JPS1 Presumably the compensation package for an employee, say an engineer, on a short line or regional railroad is less than that for someone on one of the Class 1s. What are the reasons that someone would go to work for the short line or regional railroad?
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