I got do some train watching today. A BNSF southbound mixed train waited for a a northbound grainier at Hills, Minnesota. As soon as the northbound train passed, the southbound train dropped 'er in gear and took off. Literally, the southbound train was pulling onto the main in the time it took me to walk two blocks, and I'm a fast walker. Is it common for a train in the hole to take off as soon as the other train had cleared the switch?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy SidingIs it common for a train in the hole to take off as soon as the other train had cleared the switch?
Slightly ... sometimes not too slightly ... complicating this, the train passing must actually clear the fouling point.
Fun thing observed early this week: light unit coal train stopped on the main, long PSR consist of empty autoracks going around on the siding. Engineer on the autorack train took special care slowing down not to bunch any slack -- I said 'watch him be 180' too long when the engines get to the fouling point' and, lo and behold! ... first three cars, then one car, too long to clear. Some choice language from the westbound coal-train engineer; he is not a fan of some of the requirements of PTC or PSR. Finally the autorack moved up as close to the fouling point as he could, and the dispatcher authorized the coal train to move on discretion... I did not see how much clearance there was but it couldn't have been much. Alternative was for the autorack to back up, run into the siding again, and nail the independent to run all the slack in right at the end -- not my admittedly unprofessional idea of the best way to fit a long consist into the shortest space.
Here, the green showed within a few seconds of the autorack clearing the switch, not the fouling point, and presumably the coal train would have proceeded immediately upon this -- he had his lights on and automatic brake released in anticipation of being able to do exactly that -- had clearance permitted.
I will make the assumption that both the above situations you are illuminating happened on lines that operated under CTC rules that were controlled by a CADS.
CADS permits the Dispatcher to 'stack' signals to permit the switches and signals to be lined as the Dispatcher desires without the Dispatcher having to physically view and then manipulate the controls at that particular control point. CADS detects that the train has cleared the conflicting circuit(s) and it then issues the code line instructions to line the switches and signals as the Dispatcher had instructed CADS to do.
No signals are going to display Green, unless the fouling point of the conflicting route has been cleared by the conflicting train.
The worst words a Dispatcher can hear are 'We don't fit' and his response is 'What do you mean you don't fit'. Since there is approximately 100 feet (+/-) of slack in the 10K+ foot long trains being operated these days - slack can be compressed to shorten the length of the train. CADS normally gets data from the carriers 'car & train movement' data system that contains the loads, empties, tonnage and length of the train (tonnage is calcuated from the cargo waybilled plus the UMLER specified empty weights of the equipment, length is calculated from the UMLER specified lengths of the cars consisted in the train). It is required that this consist information be updated to reflect the pickups and setoffs that occur between origin and desitnation of the train, that origin and destination can span a multitude of crew operating districts. Additionally some Defect Detector may report over the radio a length that the detector measured as the train passed the detector - Dispatchers may inquire of the crews what their DD length is.
The Siding Lengths reported in employee timetables are the numbers from MofW's documents - between clearance points - in practice these numbers may or may not agree with train lengths - no matter if it is the DD length or the UMLER length.
A train getting a Clear signal indication can proceed a maximum authorized speed and when acellerating from a stop can go to the 8th Notch as soon as the train dynamics permit that to be safely done. A train departing a siding will get a indication that takes into consideration the maximum speed the switch departing the siding can be safely operated over.
What do you mean you don't fit.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
You don't fit is happening quite frequently around the Deshler area on CSX.
stay safe
Joe
Deshler Ohio-crossroads of the B&O Matt eats your fries.YUM! Clinton st viaduct undefeated against too tall trucks!!!(voted to be called the "Clinton St. can opener").
Re: Stacking.
I frequently watch the Deshler cams. On more than one occasion, I've seen one of the southbound signals go from "Stop" to "Restricting" almost as soon as the tail end of a train has passed it.
You can then watch as the signal cycles through progressively less restrictive aspects until it reaches "Clear." All while the train that just passed moves further down the line.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
OvermodAlternative was for the autorack to back up, run into the siding again, and nail the independent to run all the slack in right at the end -- not my admittedly unprofessional idea of the best way to fit a long consist into the shortest space.
I knew an engineer that did that in a yard.
He put 15 autoracks on the ground.
That is a stupid idea. Then what happens when the slack runs out? Your rear end goes back through the interlocking.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
JoeKoh You don't fit is happening quite frequently around the Deshler area on CSX. stay safe Joe
No it isn't.
An "expensive model collector"
First, I take it the southbound was in the siding.
Second, I believe this is dark Track Warrant territory.
If it has authority to proceed after meeting the opposing train, once you've verified the train is complete (look for the EOT/marker) and clear of the switch, line the switch and go. If it's a spring switch, you don't even have to line it.
If it's a hand throw in dark territory, or even in ABS territory, it either has to be lined back normal for main track movement or track warrant authority to leave it lined reverse. When authorized to leave it reversed, the train dispatcher becomes responsible for protecting it against other movements. Also for dark territory, a switch position awareness form needs to be filled out and intialled by the conductor and engineer when the switch is reversed and returned normal. Transfering control of the switch to another crew or dispatcher would also be notated. I don't know about BNSF, but when we report clear of a warrant verbally, it has to be stated that all switches used have been restored normal within the limits (unless otherwise instructed) and the Conductor's Trip Report (which is used as the SPAF) has been signed.
In ABS there is a 5 minute wait when operating a hand throw switch. However, one exception to the wait is after an opposing train has been met.
Jeff
zugmann Overmod Alternative was for the autorack to back up, run into the siding again, and nail the independent to run all the slack in right at the end -- not my admittedly unprofessional idea of the best way to fit a long consist into the shortest space. I knew an engineer that did that in a yard. He put 15 autoracks on the ground. That is a stupid idea. Then what happens when the slack runs out? Your rear end goes back through the interlocking.
Overmod Alternative was for the autorack to back up, run into the siding again, and nail the independent to run all the slack in right at the end -- not my admittedly unprofessional idea of the best way to fit a long consist into the shortest space.
And then you get suspended/fired for running a red light.
This is surprisingly common on CN, and we are allowed to request a signal out of the siding behind us and then wait until the Dispatcher tells us the request has cleared before releasing the brakes and attempting to start the train.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
jeffhergert First, I take it the southbound was in the siding. Second, I believe this is dark Track Warrant territory. If it has authority to proceed after meeting the opposing train, once you've verified the train is complete (look for the EOT/marker) and clear of the switch, line the switch and go. If it's a spring switch, you don't even have to line it. If it's a hand throw in dark territory, or even in ABS territory, it either has to be lined back normal for main track movement or track warrant authority to leave it lined reverse. When authorized to leave it reversed, the train dispatcher becomes responsible for protecting it against other movements. Also for dark territory, a switch position awareness form needs to be filled out and intialled by the conductor and engineer when the switch is reversed and returned normal. Transfering control of the switch to another crew or dispatcher would also be notated. I don't know about BNSF, but when we report clear of a warrant verbally, it has to be stated that all switches used have been restored normal within the limits (unless otherwise instructed) and the Conductor's Trip Report (which is used as the SPAF) has been signed. In ABS there is a 5 minute wait when operating a hand throw switch. However, one exception to the wait is after an opposing train has been met. Jeff
Murphy Siding jeffhergert First, I take it the southbound was in the siding. Second, I believe this is dark Track Warrant territory. If it has authority to proceed after meeting the opposing train, once you've verified the train is complete (look for the EOT/marker) and clear of the switch, line the switch and go. If it's a spring switch, you don't even have to line it. If it's a hand throw in dark territory, or even in ABS territory, it either has to be lined back normal for main track movement or track warrant authority to leave it lined reverse. When authorized to leave it reversed, the train dispatcher becomes responsible for protecting it against other movements. Also for dark territory, a switch position awareness form needs to be filled out and intialled by the conductor and engineer when the switch is reversed and returned normal. Transfering control of the switch to another crew or dispatcher would also be notated. I don't know about BNSF, but when we report clear of a warrant verbally, it has to be stated that all switches used have been restored normal within the limits (unless otherwise instructed) and the Conductor's Trip Report (which is used as the SPAF) has been signed. In ABS there is a 5 minute wait when operating a hand throw switch. However, one exception to the wait is after an opposing train has been met. Jeff Holy cow! The internet gods let me sign on using my home computer for the first time in about a month! Southbound was in the siding. The switch must be remotely controlled as the crew didn't have to throw the switch. As soon as the train on the main passed, the conductor went back and checked something inside the 2nd engine. Right after he got back to the leading engine the train took off. If there were not remotely controlled swithes at each end of the siding, would the conductor have to make two mile and a half walks down the tracks to throw switches?
Holy cow! The internet gods let me sign on using my home computer for the first time in about a month! Southbound was in the siding. The switch must be remotely controlled as the crew didn't have to throw the switch. As soon as the train on the main passed, the conductor went back and checked something inside the 2nd engine. Right after he got back to the leading engine the train took off. If there were not remotely controlled swithes at each end of the siding, would the conductor have to make two mile and a half walks down the tracks to throw switches?
There exist radio controlled switches - I have no idea if they are being used on 'your' line.
The train will send a spcific code, as specified in the ETT to have the switch thrown to either the Normal or Reverse position as necessary. The switch will send a confirming tone or message via the road radio channel for the territory. When everything works as intended, no crew have to get on the ground to handle the switches.
In Dark Territory, the crews will have, or obtain, appropriate Track Warrant authority to continue their trip after the meet. Train on the Main track is only goverened track speed for the territory; train from the siding is governed by the speed over the switch until the rear car has cleared the switch and then maximum track speed on the line.
Train Dispatchers do not control switches 'within' Track Warrant territory - they may control switches entering or exiting the territory.
Interesting. So it sounds like the southbound train in the siding is probably controlli radio controlled switches at both ends of the siding. If I follo this right, the dispatcher isn't even involved? Is a message in some form sent to the dispatcher?
Murphy SidingInteresting. So it sounds like the southbound train in the siding is probably controlli radio controlled switches at both ends of the siding. If I follo this right, the dispatcher isn't even involved? Is a message in some form sent to the dispatcher?
Dispatcher is involved in that he is the one that created the Track Warrants that set up the meet and gave the trains authority to operate beyond the meet. Nothing moves in TWC territory without the authority of the Train Dispatcher.
Marshall Sub (LS 197) is TWC/Dark with Hydraulic Spring switches (w/ radio tone call activation)...Boise City Sub here in SE Colorado is a similar operation and the spring switches pretty much do all the work . One direction is always lined into the siding and the other always holds the main. (At Hills, the main is 49 MPH and the siding is 40 mph)... the only times the tone call gets used is when something out of the ordinary happens and a switch needs to be thrown (usually the local roadswitcher)....operating with spring switches is going to warp Norris' brain for a while. Usually those switches have manganese replaceable tips and undercut Sampson stock rails ... they can almost handle the abuse (until some dim bulb pulls partially through the spring switch and then backs up ....or takes the turnout too fast )
Norris: The hydraulic switch machine looks like a rectangular metal box (4'x3'x1'Thick with a green and red frogeye light on top that indicates if the switch is lined for the main track or siding)
BaltACD Train Dispatchers do not control switches 'within' Track Warrant territory - they may control switches entering or exiting the territory.
UP has started having the dispatchers control the siding switches at some sidings. While the signals look like CTC, they aren't. The switch and signals are considered to be manual interlockings. You need a track warrant to occupy the main track between stations and the main track between the siding switches, the manual interlockings.
One crew found this out the hard way. They had a warrant up to the interlocking, but it didn't specify hold main track or clear main track at that station. The dispatcher lined them up down the main, gave them a signal but had not issued a track warrant to cover the move. They took the signal and went down the main to the interlocking at the other end of the siding.
jeffhergert BaltACD Train Dispatchers do not control switches 'within' Track Warrant territory - they may control switches entering or exiting the territory. UP has started having the dispatchers control the siding switches at some sidings. While the signals look like CTC, they aren't. The switch and signals are considered to be manual interlockings. You need a track warrant to occupy the main track between stations and the main track between the siding switches, the manual interlockings. One crew found this out the hard way. They had a warrant up to the interlocking, but it didn't specify hold main track or clear main track at that station. The dispatcher lined them up down the main, gave them a signal but had not issued a track warrant to cover the move. They took the signal and went down the main to the interlocking at the other end of the siding. Jeff
I haven't heard of such a operation - to me - it sound fraught with confusion, confusion on the railroad can be deadly.
Such situations on CSX, happen in Signal Suspensions in CTC territory. To pass the entrance point of the Suspension you must have BOTH as signal indication more permissive than STOP and Track Warrant authority. Having one or the other is not sufficient to proceed. Crews have gotten it wrong and ended up with unpaid vacations.
"One crew found this out the hard way."
Do you mean they were disciplined for proceeding down the main?
Lithonia Operator jeffhergert BaltACD Train Dispatchers do not control switches 'within' Track Warrant territory - they may control switches entering or exiting the territory. UP has started having the dispatchers control the siding switches at some sidings. While the signals look like CTC, they aren't. The switch and signals are considered to be manual interlockings. You need a track warrant to occupy the main track between stations and the main track between the siding switches, the manual interlockings. One crew found this out the hard way. They had a warrant up to the interlocking, but it didn't specify hold main track or clear main track at that station. The dispatcher lined them up down the main, gave them a signal but had not issued a track warrant to cover the move. They took the signal and went down the main to the interlocking at the other end of the siding. Jeff "One crew found this out the hard way." Do you mean they were disciplined for proceeding down the main?
An unplanned, unpaid (unless they had job insurance) 30 day vacation.
mudchicken Marshall Sub (LS 197) is TWC/Dark with Hydraulic Spring switches (w/ radio tone call activation)...Boise City Sub here in SE Colorado is a similar operation and the spring switches pretty much do all the work . One direction is always lined into the siding and the other always holds the main. (At Hills, the main is 49 MPH and the siding is 40 mph)... the only times the tone call gets used is when something out of the ordinary happens and a switch needs to be thrown (usually the local roadswitcher)....operating with spring switches is going to warp Norris' brain for a while. Usually those switches have manganese replaceable tips and undercut Sampson stock rails ... they can almost handle the abuse (until some dim bulb pulls partially through the spring switch and then backs up ....or takes the turnout too fast ) Norris: The hydraulic switch machine looks like a rectangular metal box (4'x3'x1'Thick with a green and red frogeye light on top that indicates if the switch is lined for the main track or siding)
Murphy Siding Any train going south ends up automatically being switched into the siding at Hills. The switch snaps back(?) after train goes through, lining the switch for northbound trains on the main. When the southbound train leaves the siding, that switch snaps back too, leaving the switch lined for the northbound trains as well.
Any train going south ends up automatically being switched into the siding at Hills. The switch snaps back(?) after train goes through, lining the switch for northbound trains on the main. When the southbound train leaves the siding, that switch snaps back too, leaving the switch lined for the northbound trains as well.
I would guess that they don't quite work that way, Murph. I would think the switch would stay in the preferred position until a train approaches it from the other track opposite of the switch points. The wheels of the train would force the switch points over, allowing the train to proceed through it. Anything coming from the point end would have to follow the alignment of the spring switch to whichever track it's normally aligned for. In your case, the south switch would "snap back" after the southbound left the siding, but the north switch wouldn't "snap back" until the northbound cleared it.
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
blhanel Murphy Siding Any train going south ends up automatically being switched into the siding at Hills. The switch snaps back(?) after train goes through, lining the switch for northbound trains on the main. When the southbound train leaves the siding, that switch snaps back too, leaving the switch lined for the northbound trains as well. I would guess that they don't quite work that way, Murph. I would think the switch would stay in the preferred position until a train approaches it from the other track opposite of the switch points. The wheels of the train would force the switch points over, allowing the train to proceed through it. Anything coming from the point end would have to follow the alignment of the spring switch to whichever track it's normally aligned for. In your case, the south switch would "snap back" after the southbound left the siding, but the north switch wouldn't "snap back" until the northbound cleared it.
Spring Switches are designed to stay in the desired position for ALL Facing Point movements. Spring Switches can be operated through in the Trailing Point direction - every time the trailing movement force the points into the trailing position, they will return to the facing point direction until the next wheel forces the points to the trailing position. If a train moving in the trailing point direction stops without having cleared the Spring Switch, and it then reverses movement without hand operating and securing the Spring Switch to facilitate that reverse movement - seriously bad things happen.
There are switches that can be lined by running through them (trailing point move) and they stay lined for the last route used. They are called "automatic" or "variable point" switches. We had one installed at Council Bluffs in the yard a few months ago. They, like spring switches, have signs or special switch targets to identify them.
At one time many switches in yards (those for the bowl or classification tracks) were like that. Mostly those type are gone replaced by those that can't be run through. In some places, like in CB, they are making a limited come-back.
There is a common meeting place near me that I think has spring switches at both ends, or did at one time. Seems like I saw a picture of one of the switches with a "SS" sign at some point in the past.
There are LP tanks at those points.
Access to them isn't easy - maybe one of these days I'll see what I can find. I think I can get to at least one of them legally.
tree68 There is a common meeting place near me that I think has spring switches at both ends, or did at one time. Seems like I saw a picture of one of the switches with a "SS" sign at some point in the past. There are LP tanks at those points. Access to them isn't easy - maybe one of these days I'll see what I can find. I think I can get to at least one of them legally.
"S" or "S S" on a switch target is a spring switch. The LP would be for a switch heater.
jeffhergertThere are switches that can be lined by running through them (trailing point move) and they stay lined for the last route used. They are called "automatic" or "variable point" switches. We had one installed at Council Bluffs in the yard a few months ago. They, like spring switches, have signs or special switch targets to identify them. At one time many switches in yards (those for the bowl or classification tracks) were like that. Mostly those type are gone replaced by those that can't be run through. In some places, like in CB, they are making a limited come-back. Jeff
I fully believe that the 'run through' switches have been replaced by non-run through switches simply so more Efficiency Test Failures could be chalked up every measuring period by the Weed Weasels.
BaltACDI fully believe that the 'run through' switches have been replaced by non-run through switches simply so more Efficiency Test Failures could be chalked up every measuring period by the Weed Weasels.
Run-thru switches take maintenance. Can't have that. Won't you think of the stockholders? We'd rather have a crew run thru a switch, back up and make a huge mess that need Hulcher's. Becuase...it's....cheaper...?
If I remember from reading one of my hubby's books Techachapi for years had spring switches for almost its entire length of it where it had the sidings on it unless it had CTC control. If trains where going to meet one switch was always set for the main the other end was for the siding.
Growing up in Cincinnati, I saw the streetcars use the Mt Adams incline. The double track street merged through a spring switch to a short stretch of single track which came to a trail and stay switch that led to the two approaches to the left and right inclined plane tracks with a similar arrangement at the other end of the inclined plane. So a down car would exit the plane and pass through the trail and stay switch to the single track leaving it lined for the next streetcar to head to the empty car. And the spring switch would put the down car on the outbound track. At the Fox River Trolley Museum, we use similar arrangements, Spring switchs on either end of a passing siding and trail and stay to return a car to the track it departed from if only operating one car at a time. If first car departs from the main, it trails throught the switch and when it returns it is directed to the main. When the next car leaves from track 2, it trails the switch and leaves it lined for track 2, so that when it returns, it goes to track 2. Of couse, on busy days when we run two cars and they pass on the siding, the returning car has to stop and thow the switch to get to the desired track.
zugmann BaltACD I fully believe that the 'run through' switches have been replaced by non-run through switches simply so more Efficiency Test Failures could be chalked up every measuring period by the Weed Weasels. Run-thru switches take maintenance. Can't have that. Won't you think of the stockholders? We'd rather have a crew run thru a switch, back up and make a huge mess that need Hulcher's. Becuase...it's....cheaper...?
BaltACD I fully believe that the 'run through' switches have been replaced by non-run through switches simply so more Efficiency Test Failures could be chalked up every measuring period by the Weed Weasels.
It also takes maintenance turn and/or replace the broken switch lug of a non-runthrough switch in addition to Hulcher charges. Have to keep those E-test failures coming!
jeffhergert The LP would be for a switch heater.
Yeah - I knew that. The question would be why (aside from preventing the switch from freezing). Is it remotely controlled, or a spring switch, or just so the crews don't have to dig out the switch when it comes time to throw it?
A reconnaissance mission is in order...
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