Another thread got me to wondering about this. Also, if the crew member has a companion dog, can he call in sick if the dog isn't feeling well?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I wish.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Calling in sick is a cardinal violation in the eyes of management.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
Is sick leave something that would be negotiated by the union in order to get it?
New York State just passed a law requiring most employers offer paid sick leave, and I wonder if that would require the likes of CSX to offer it for their employees there, or if the union contract (or something else) exempts them from the requirement.
The Class I's are federally regulated, and state/provincial regulations may not apply to them.
A bit more detail, from CN in Canada.
We don't get paid sick days, but there is no limit to the number of days or times an employee can book sick in each calender month or year. Long term sick or disability leave is different, that time is paid.
As in many workplaces, calling in sick to avoid work is a time-honoured tradition on the railroad. Employee attendance is monitored and those who book sick draw unwanted attention to themselves by doing so. CN counts the total number of sick days taken in each terminal and calculates an average, anyone with an above average number will be monitored more closely, will be required to get Doctor's notes* and may receive 'coaching letters' and/or formal discipline (sometimes they skip the coaching). This also means that if your home terminal has a very high average, you can get away with calling in sick more often.
The terminal of Jasper, Alberta (also a mountain resort party town) is notorious for its high number of sick days, many of which start on Friday or Saturday afternoon. Several employees there actually managed to accumulate over 100 sick days in a single year, and they still work at this "full time" job.
*Those Doctor's notes are a waste of time, and are just a Company tactic to 'get back' a bit at those who book off. They won't tell you to provide a note until after you book back on, so you go to the Doctor and pay for the note, which will simply read:
"To whom it may concern, Bob Smith says he was sick on September 10, 2020."
At least we got the note requirement clarified and reduced a bit a couple contracts ago. Article 156 in the CTY (Conductors, Trainmen, Yardmen) West agreement reads as follows:
"156.1. Employees, on resuming duty after sick leave, will not be required to produce a doctor's certificate except employees who are considered continual offenders, book sick when called or while on duty after being called may be required to produce a medical certificate within 48 hours of resuming duty and/or submit to an examination from a Company medical officer. Payment for taking such required examinations will not accrue to employees governed by the provision of this paragraph.
NOTE: The 48-hour requirement in paragraph 156 will exclude weekends and general holidays."
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
The attendence policies are specific to the individual railroads.
Here's one that's seen all those who have run afoul of it (so far) dismissed.
http://www.bletsr.org/documents/reference/Attendance%20Policy.pdf
Jeff
jeffhergertThe attendence policies are specific to the individual railroads. Here's one that's seen all those who have run afoul of it (so far) dismissed. http://www.bletsr.org/documents/reference/Attendance%20Policy.pdf Jeff
Does UP have a 'Red Block' program?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDDoes UP have a 'Red Block' program?
And I see what you mean; that comment about union participation in the new policy pretty well indicates RedBlock is being kicked to the curb...
Overmod BaltACD Does UP have a 'Red Block' program? https://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/releases/safety/2007/0328_peersupport.shtml And I see what you mean; that comment about union participation in the new policy pretty well indicates RedBlock is being kicked to the curb...
BaltACD Does UP have a 'Red Block' program?
https://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/releases/safety/2007/0328_peersupport.shtml
The unions have always told their members that if they are in a position where RedBlock could be used, they are better off to just layoff sick. Using it can start a trail that one may regret in the long run.
Even so, RedBlock is still better than going to work and getting popped for a violation.
Actually, the new policy and some other moves, have gotten most union locals and divisions (BLE&T calls their locals divisions.) to stop participating in their Total Safety Culture.
jeffhergertThe attendence policies are specific to the individual railroads.
The problem many of us have - is these attendance policies should be in the contract. Not just arbitraily crewated and enforced.
jeffhergert The unions have always told their members that if they are in a position where RedBlock could be used, they are better off to just layoff sick. Using it can start a trail that one may regret in the long run.
It's the same up here. I think CN has/had a RedBlock style policy with a different name, but I can't recall hearing of anyone ever actually using it.
We got "Unfit" reinstated as a status for booking off a couple contracts ago, after it had been taken away during the Hunter Harrison era.
traisessive1 Calling in sick is a cardinal violation in the eyes of management.
I was part of the senior management team for one of the largest investor owned electric utilities in North America. We did not want employees to come to work if they were sick; we had a reasonably generous sick leave policy for all employees, including those in the union. In fact, on numerous occasions, I sent people home because they were ill but tried to come to work anyway.
Ninety percent of our employees from top to bottom did not abuse the system. But the ten percent that did, at least on occasion, were a challenge for their supervisors and management. For those that continuously abused the system, we helped them find another job. But not with us!
An electric utility is not the same as a railroad, but it is a 24/7 operation with lots of embedded risks. Our policies and procedures encouraged people to come to work unless they were sick, in which case we encouraged then to stay home.
From the time I was a buck sergeant in the Marine Corp until I retired from the utility it was always the 10 percenters that caused most of the problems. Always!
Memo from management:
Management of this company is taking a close look at leave, especially sick leave. Careful study of sick leave usage has shown that 40% of all sick leave used is taken on Mondays and Fridays...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
zugmann jeffhergert The attendence policies are specific to the individual railroads. The problem many of us have - is these attendance policies should be in the contract. Not just arbitraily crewated and enforced.
jeffhergert The attendence policies are specific to the individual railroads.
Approaching Thanksgiving one year - had a crew 'saved' at an away from home terminal to protect the 'hot' intermodal train - they marked off Red Block on the call. No other crew to move the train
JPS1 From the time I was a buck sergeant in the Marine Corp until I retired from the utility it was always the 10 percenters that caused most of the problems. Always!
When I became a local union rep the old head local chairman said to me:
"10% of our members will create 90% of your work."
It was true when he hired on 40 years ago, and it's still true today.
BaltACDApproaching Thanksgiving one year - had a crew 'saved' at an away from home terminal to protect the 'hot' intermodal train - they marked off Red Block on the call. No other crew to move the train
I (and probably every person that had to work the road) was once stuck in a hotel over Thanksgiving for a train that never happened. DH'd back the next day. I've seen too many crews get jacked at AFHT on a regular basis due to piss poor planning - so I have no sympathy.
Ditto>
My work with the utility was similar but I don't think the % is was as high as 10%. We had some "weekend sickness" cases but I don't think it was that high. When there was some feeling of "overwork" by the linemen (TOO MUCH OVERTIME) there were many cases where crewmen woult not answer their phones. I note that the UP puts that in the points log for dicipline.
One work rule event I will always remember was a cold December day when the job was to "tune" a wavetrap on a 138 kV power line. The temp was in the upper 20s and we had the line switched out. And then the crew leader noted about 20 or so snow flakes on the truck's windshield. Inclement Weather Clause. Can't work in precipitation unless its essential! So we aborted and came back the next day. Which was clear and 5 degrees. Hands get cold much faster at 5 degrees than at 28. The letter of the contract. I had great men to work with and I appreciated all of them.
I was management and I don't think I ever took a day off when I was not truly sick. We had a good health insurance plan and I recall one new electrical engineer who had mental issues and he was off almost a year (at full salery) until he came back. The one perk I would have liked was to have been able to carry over some vacation from one year to the next. We got the benefits the union negotiated which were great.
zugmann BaltACD Approaching Thanksgiving one year - had a crew 'saved' at an away from home terminal to protect the 'hot' intermodal train - they marked off Red Block on the call. No other crew to move the train I (and probably every person that had to work the road) was once stuck in a hotel over Thanksgiving for a train that never happened. DH'd back the next day. I've seen too many crews get jacked at AFHT on a regular basis due to piss poor planning - so I have no sympathy.
BaltACD Approaching Thanksgiving one year - had a crew 'saved' at an away from home terminal to protect the 'hot' intermodal train - they marked off Red Block on the call. No other crew to move the train
It didn't happen to me, but one Christmas some crews at the AFHT on the east end were stuck for a couple of days, including Christmas day. That motel did (and does not) have a restaurant attached to it. There are multiple restaurants, including a small truck stop within walking distance. That holiday season they were all, including the truck stop, closed. Needless to say, the motel vending machines were the only recourse, until they were empty.
They deadheaded Illinois crews home, but not our crews. They did order, than cancel a bus. The day after Christmas, they did deadhead a couple of our crews but by then trains started moving again. There were a lot of unhappy campers on the East Pool that year.
Once upon a time, the local management at home and the west AFHT had food catered in for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Going on or off duty, you could fill up a to-go box and take with you. They haven't done that in quite a while now.
I always carry enough provisions for a couple days. The second day's menu may not be haute cuisine, but it can get me through.
At the time CSX was using a defined 'Holiday Shut Down Plan' that specified which trains were to be tied down at which terminals - a plan that everybody actually tried to fulfill. Tying up a train where it wasn't supposed to be created cascading hardships throughout the system. Terminals don't have unlimited 'hiding spots' to hold trains that were not planned to be held.
The incident cause the end of the world, but did create a level of aggrivation. I know of the 'phantom train' phenomenon - it does happen, despite everyone's best efforts to prevent it from happening. It will mostly happen where, considering the 12 hour HOS - it takes more than 2 hour to DH a crew from the home terminal to the AFHT and the expected working hours for the train will exceed the time left to work after the deadhead; in that case a rested AFHT crew will be held to protect the train. If the originator of the train continues to tell you that the train is 'about to be called' deadheading a rested crew away from the train would be viewed as a cardinal mistake.
One of my brothers worked in HR for a grocery chain. There was an employee at one of the stores who they nicknamed Austin Earl. By coincidence, every time there was an MLB playoff game he would develop severe Irritable Bowel Syndrome. That ended after the time he left work early because of "an attack" and was recorded on camera at the store checkout lane buying spicy sausage, hot salsa, and chips on the way out.
I guess I'm kind of surprised that an industry that has been around something like 190 years and has heavy union partisipation has never gotten some paid sick leave worked into contracts.
Murphy Siding I guess I'm kind of surprised that an industry that has been around something like 190 years and has heavy union partisipation has never gotten some paid sick leave worked into contracts.
Train and Engine service contracts are totally different than the contracts that apply to all the other crafts on the railroad. Their contracts have been configured by the parameters of the Hours of Service Law and the 100 mile day.
Back in the day HOS was 16 hours and the basic day was 100 miles. The pay in T&E contracts is based upon the basic mileage (note on present day contracts the mileage component has expanded from 100 mile to (I think) 138 miles for the basic day. For the sake of calculations I'll work with the 100 mile day. If the run from crew change point to crew change point is 200 miles - the crew will be paid 2 days pay for making the run - if they make the run in 4 hours or 16 hours the pay is the same, with the basic day also equating to 8 hours. The crew cannot earn Overtime until they exceeded the 16 hour HOS, by going on the law outside their destination terminal and then accruing addition time between the HOS location and their final tie up point they will then earn OT.
In the day - T&E personnel would get more than enough days pay within a pay period that I have to believe they 'felt' they didn't need 'Sick Time'. That was back in the day!
In today's PSR world of railroading, the HOS is 12 hours, the basic day has a expanded mileage component - and in the PSR world we now have Managment actively working to minimize the employement head count trying through their attendance policies to have all T&E employees marked up and working when they are not prevented from working by various HOS monthly requirements or contract authorized Vacation periods. Management doesn't want to pay 100 T&E employees on a district if they THINK they can get by with 80 covering the load - it they keep them from marking off.
Even where Craft contracts have Sick Time as a part of the employee's contracted benefits - the company's are trying their best to prevent their employees from exercising the right to be SICK.
BaltACD Murphy Siding I guess I'm kind of surprised that an industry that has been around something like 190 years and has heavy union partisipation has never gotten some paid sick leave worked into contracts. Train and Engine service contracts are totally different than the contracts that apply to all the other crafts on the railroad. Their contracts have been configured by the parameters of the Hours of Service Law and the 100 mile day. Back in the day HOS was 16 hours and the basic day was 100 miles. The pay in T&E contracts is based upon the basic mileage (note on present day contracts the mileage component has expanded from 100 mile to (I think) 138 miles for the basic day. For the sake of calculations I'll work with the 100 mile day. If the run from crew change point to crew change point is 200 miles - the crew will be paid 2 days pay for making the run - if they make the run in 4 hours or 16 hours the pay is the same, with the basic day also equating to 8 hours. The crew cannot earn Overtime until they exceeded the 16 hour HOS, by going on the law outside their destination terminal and then accruing addition time between the HOS location and their final tie up point they will then earn OT. In the day - T&E personnel would get more than enough days pay within a pay period that I have to believe they 'felt' they didn't need 'Sick Time'. That was back in the day! In today's PSR world of railroading, the HOS is 12 hours, the basic day has a expanded mileage component - and in the PSR world we now have Managment actively working to minimize the employement head count trying through their attendance policies to have all T&E employees marked up and working when they are not prevented from working by various HOS monthly requirements or contract authorized Vacation periods. Management doesn't want to pay 100 T&E employees on a district if they THINK they can get by with 80 covering the load - it they keep them from marking off. Even where Craft contracts have Sick Time as a part of the employee's contracted benefits - the company's are trying their best to prevent their employees from exercising the right to be SICK.
The current basic day is 130 miles. A 200 mile run during the 100 mile day would pay 100 miles at the basic day milage rate plus 100 miles at an 'overmiles' rate. Lengthing the basic day reduces overmiles, reducing the amount paid per trip. A 200 mile run today pays 130 regular miles plus 70 overmiles.
Unassigned through freight pools, which means no assigned trains, you get whatever type of train that shows up when you are first out for work. It could be a hotshot, it could be the doggiest dog train. The pools are regulated to even out the work. Often by how many miles a turn makes in a fixed checking period. A person on runs of 200 miles won't work as often as a person on a 100 mile run.
Road overtime during the 100 mile era begins when the time on duty exceeds the miles run divided by 12.5. For 100 miles or less, that's 8 hours. For 200 miles the time would be 16 hours. For 130 miles, divide by 16.25. Luckily, the unions provide time books that have the overtime tables in them so we don't have to do the math. Then and now, there are some runs where overtime (unless otherwise provided in agreements) won't begin until the crews are dead on HOS.
Sometimes they did, only to be voted away by the current union members greed. I will suggest to ask Balt why CSX dispatchers hired after 2005 do not have sick days, but those hired before do.
An "expensive model collector"
n012944 Murphy Siding I guess I'm kind of surprised that an industry that has been around something like 190 years and has heavy union partisipation has never gotten some paid sick leave worked into contracts. Sometimes they did, only to be voted away by the current union members greed. I will suggest to ask Balt why CSX dispatchers hired after 2005 do not have sick days, but those hired before do.
Trying to think what the office politics were at that point in time. Is this on the CSX Dispatchers contract or the CSX-East (former ConRail) contract. They are different contracts voted on by those who work under each contract.
There is politics played on contracts - Union 'demands' X, Company responds with -x - dickering takes place 'if you do this, we will do that' - after all that gets run through a garbage disposal then put into a trash compactor and finally a meat grinder a contract gets presented to the Membership to vote on.
I don't know what contract the Dispatchers are working on with everyone back in Jacksonville.
What, if anything, did they get in exchange for that?
Or was this a case of two bargaining units being merged under a single contract, with the older employees from one contract having certain rights 'grandfathered in'? That has happened with Train and Engine crews as well at various times over the years.
In my experience many members want to maximize their potential earnings, while many others want to maximize their time off work. And unfortunately we can't get both.
SD70Dude n012944 Murphy Siding I guess I'm kind of surprised that an industry that has been around something like 190 years and has heavy union partisipation has never gotten some paid sick leave worked into contracts. Sometimes they did, only to be voted away by the current union members greed. I will suggest to ask Balt why CSX dispatchers hired after 2005 do not have sick days, but those hired before do. What, if anything, did they get in exchange for that? Or was this a case of two bargaining units being merged under a single contract, with the older employees from one contract having certain rights 'grandfathered in'? That has happened with Train and Engine crews as well at various times over the years. In my experience many members want to maximize their potential earnings, while many others want to maximize their time off work. And unfortunately we can't get both.
When I retired in 2016 - CSX and CSX East were separate. CSX positions were rated about $30 a day more the CSX East position. The CSX positions benefited from all the horse trading that facilitated the Original centralization of the CSX Dispatchers in the 1988-1992 period and then the decentralization that took place in 2008. The CSX East postitions were former ConRail and were never integrated into the Jacksonville operation and did not benefit from that pay scale.
The eternal question - Do you work for money? Or do you work for prestige? Those that work for prestige end up being 1st level supervision and are out earned by those in the crafts that work for money.
A lot of unions, not just railroad ones, have over the years negotiated contracts that preserve wage levels and benefits for existing employees, but not for new hires. It preserves things for the veteran employee, but makes the cost of a new hire cheaper. It's a compromise that gets contracts signed. It does create some animosity between the young and old at times.
Many places new hires start at a percentage and work themselves up to full wage. And in many places that full wage is not what the existing employee's wage rate is. The national contract for trainmen is/was like that. I started at 75% of a veteran employee and worked up to 100%. At least on the railroad, you work up to what the veteran employee makes, but as a post 1985 guy without some of the arbitrary and work rule payments. (An example, at the time-there have been some changes in later contracts, a pre-1985 conductor got a full day's pay for deadheading. Post-1985 guys got an hourly rate unless certain conditions applied. Pre-1985 conductors called to go dogcatching for multiple trains got a day's pay everytime they left the terminal to go get a train. Post-1985 guys only received one day's pay, again unless certain conditions were met, plus possible overtime and all miles run.)
SD70Dude n012944 Murphy Siding I guess I'm kind of surprised that an industry that has been around something like 190 years and has heavy union partisipation has never gotten some paid sick leave worked into contracts. Sometimes they did, only to be voted away by the current union members greed. I will suggest to ask Balt why CSX dispatchers hired after 2005 do not have sick days, but those hired before do. What, if anything, did they get in exchange for that?
They got 3 extra personal days, along with some better conditions under short term disability, and kept their sick days. Anyone hired after that contract passed does not get sick days.
When CN was able to negotiate away the tail-end brakeman's position and then both head-end brakeman's position and the caboose many years ago, existing employees received protection.
Pre-1982 train service employees cannot be forced to work in another terminal, even on a shortage (in this case the company has to provide accomodations and a meal allowance), and pre-1990 men can only be forced to the next terminal over. For example, a Vancouver trainman could be forced to Kamloops, but no further. None of these employees can ever be laid off, if they are unable to hold a working board or assignment at their home terminal and no nearby shortage exists they go to what we call a 'furlough board', where they are paid a guarantee of 4300 miles regardless of how much they actually work. A couple small terminals had active furlough boards within the past 10 years, but I don't think any are left now, most of those employees are now reaching retirement age.
The same thing happened earlier, when the fireman's job was negotiated away. Existing firemen were trained and promoted to become engineers but could never be laid off, if they were unable to hold an engineer's position they would go back to 'working' as firemen (whatever that meant on a diesel in the 1970s, 80s and 90s). I don't think any of them are left working today, but our crew management computer system still has the ability to add a fireman to a crew.
On CN we start at the full rate of pay, but I believe CP's new hires start at something lower, 85% if I recall correctly. As has been said selling out future new hires is a tried and true bargaining tactic, for better or worse.
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