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Very tragic and very memorable railroad bridge collapses

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Very tragic and very memorable railroad bridge collapses
Posted by PATTBAA on Wednesday, September 2, 2020 4:48 PM

Two infamous railroad bridge tragedies are the Quebec Bridge and the Tay Bridge in Scotland. The bridge at Quebec collapsed when it was in the erection stage ; the Tay Bridge collasped when a passenger train was in the middle of the bridge. The Quebec bridge disaster was more tragic , more complex , and more dramatic then the Tay Bridge; more tragic because of the lives lost ; more complex because of the complex engineering in erecting a cantilever bridge; and more dramatic because ceasing erection of the bridge was being discussed.The design of the Tay was not complex; massive girders at a very high elevavationbearing on cast-iron "pipes" set on a base not much wider than the girders so a lateral force against the side of the girders could topple the bridge.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, September 2, 2020 6:34 PM

They were tragic all right.

Sadly, maybe unnecessarily, maybe not, engineering seems to be a science learned off blood-spattered pages. 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Wednesday, September 2, 2020 6:58 PM

Both were pretty tragic,  especially to the victims' families. Early days of civil engineering. 

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, September 2, 2020 6:59 PM

It has only been in the last 100 years or so that the science of engineering has replaced the art of engineering by developing measurment systems that are able to define the strength and other characteristics of the materials used in construction.

When engineering was an art, the engineers chose materials that they 'thought' were strong enough to perform the task they were asking to be done - engineering for longevity.

Now that engineering is a science, materials are chosen because of their price and specs that define them as being 'just' strong enough - engineering for price.

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Wednesday, September 2, 2020 7:43 PM

Yet dumb mistakes still occur such as the Florida pedestrian bridge collapse on the Tamiami Trail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_International_University_pedestrian_bridge_collapse

Push the envelope, don't stop traffic, etc. Robling overbuilt his bridges (Cincinnati and Brooklyn) and they still stand. 

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, September 2, 2020 8:29 PM

Electroliner 1935
Yet dumb mistakes still occur such as the Florida pedestrian bridge collapse on the Tamiami Trail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_International_University_pedestrian_bridge_collapse

Push the envelope, don't stop traffic, etc. Robling overbuilt his bridges (Cincinnati and Brooklyn) and they still stand. 

 

Dumb is normally a function of cost cutting in engineering failures - Designers called for spec 1 that cost X, but the contractor substituted spec 2 that cost x - but spec 2 is also inferior to spec 1.

Sometimes the conversion from Imperial to Metric or vice versa will catch the engineers.

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Posted by mudchicken on Wednesday, September 2, 2020 8:59 PM

Electroliner 1935

Yet dumb mistakes still occur such as the Florida pedestrian bridge collapse on the Tamiami Trail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_International_University_pedestrian_bridge_collapse

Push the envelope, don't stop traffic, etc. Robling overbuilt his bridges (Cincinnati and Brooklyn) and they still stand. 

 

Add the Rocket Train bridge on the Meridian & Bigbee to your list (wasn't the bridge's fault, but rather the people maintaining it that failed)

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, September 2, 2020 9:18 PM

Electroliner 1935
Robling overbuilt his bridges (Cincinnati and Brooklyn) and they still stand. 

Roebling followed the old medieval cathedral builders rule:

"Brethren, if thou art not sure, build hem stronger!"

Even they didn't get it right all the time, but most of the time they did.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, September 2, 2020 9:27 PM

Sometimes the bridge collapse was only the very beginning of the horror, as at Ashtabula.  

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Posted by M636C on Wednesday, September 2, 2020 9:52 PM

The design of the Tay was not complex; massive girders at a very high elevavationbearing on cast-iron "pipes" set on a base not much wider than the girders so a lateral force against the side of the girders could topple the bridge.

But it was not a coincidence that the bridge failed with a passenger train crossing it. The wind force had, indeed, not been considered by Sir Thomas Bouch in the design of the Tay Bridge, but the "High Girders" themselves were open enough in side view to not cause a problem. It was the passage of the train itself that increased the "sail area". I understand that the locomotive and the passenger cars were blown off the track inside the girders and this precipitated the failure of the bridge.

It is possible that the train could have been blown over on the approach spans and might have fallen into the river without causing a bridge failure had the severe gust occurred a few minutes earlier. I think there was a system in place to suspend train services in high wind before the failure, but the limits hadn't been reached before the train set out to cross the bridge.

The use of iron castings with excessive air bubbles causing a structural weakness contributed to the failure, these defects having been filled with glue and sawdust and painted over to avoid detection. I think inspection of these items was increased after the bridge failure.

Peter

 
 
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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, September 2, 2020 10:24 PM

 

The B&O constructed the Thomas Viaduct over the Patapsco River in two years from 1833 to 1835 to move their rolling tea kettles between Baltimore and Washington without in their wildest dreams visualizing the engines and trains and the loadings that would be operating over their creation in the ensuing 185 years.  It still stands and supports everything that the B&O and CSX have thrown at it.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Wednesday, September 2, 2020 10:30 PM

There was the bridge near Mobile that was hit by a barge, which caused the Amtrak train into the water with multiple fatalities.

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, September 2, 2020 11:08 PM

MidlandMike
There was the bridge near Mobile that was hit by a barge, which caused the Amtrak train into the water with multiple fatalities.

The Bayou Canot Bridge was constructed as a drawbridge, at the time of the incident the bridge was not on a navigable section of the river system and had not be used as a drawbrige for 50 or more years.  The tow and barge that knocked the bridge out of alignment was lost in fog and didn't realize that they had hit anything.

https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-recs/recletters/I94_3_6.pdf

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Posted by SD70Dude on Thursday, September 3, 2020 12:46 AM

The Quebec Bridge collapsed twice during construction. 

The first collapse was due to the trusses in the south cantilever tower being improperly designed, it could not support its own weight. 

The second collapse occurred when a hoist failed as the centre span was being raised.

75 workers were killed in the first collapse, 13 in the second.  Many were Mohawks from a reserve near Montreal, who were renowned for their fearlessness when working at heights.

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Posted by NKP guy on Thursday, September 3, 2020 10:10 AM

Overmod
Sometimes the bridge collapse was only the very beginning of the horror, as at Ashtabula.  

   Thanks for mentioning this disaster...and the horror that lasted for hours.

   At least the man more responsible than anyone else, because he insisted on an unproven and cheaper type of design, felt his responsibility so keenly that he later took his own life. 

   I wish a few more people who are responsible for parts of the public's well-being would take the blame when things go disastrously wrong.

   Question for the engineering pro's among us:  Sand-filled stone viaducts, whether for highways or railroads, must cost more than iron & steel bridges (by a factor of what?).  But they last forever.  Why don't more highway departments & railroads see the long-term economic and safety benefits of viaducts?  

   More viaducts, please!

 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, September 3, 2020 10:18 AM

I'm not an engineer but stone or concrete viaducts have their own limitations.  Cost is a major factor and they tend not to work too well over water or high level crossings.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by NKP guy on Thursday, September 3, 2020 10:39 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH
they tend not to work too well over water or high level crossings.

   I take your point, kinda.  But isn't the PRR viaduct over the Susquehanna River and the E-L's Tunkhannock & Nicholson viaducts proof that they do?

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, September 3, 2020 11:13 AM

Starucca Viaduct (Pennsylvania bluestone) is still in service after almost 150 years.

Tunkahannock (and little brother Martin's Creek), Lackawanna concrete, still in service as well.

If they were built well, they'll last forever.

Tunkahannock does show some spalling, but there's a lot of concrete there.

OTOH, I know of a steel girder bridge built on stone piers, that has had one mid-river pier settle.

Remember - there was a time when manpower was cheap and machinery was expensive - and that was the time when many railroad landmarks were built.

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Posted by zugmann on Thursday, September 3, 2020 11:15 AM

NKP guy
   Question for the engineering pro's among us:  Sand-filled stone viaducts, whether for highways or railroads, must cost more than iron & steel bridges (by a factor of what?).  But they last forever.  Why don't more highway departments & railroads see the long-term economic and safety benefits of viaducts?  

Shocks Mills had a couple sections collapse in 72 during Hurricane Agnes, and Rockville had part of it fall apart - so I wouldn't say they all last forever. 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, September 3, 2020 11:33 AM

tree68
Starucca Viaduct (Pennsylvania bluestone) is still in service after almost 150 years.

Tunkahannock (and little brother Martin's Creek), Lackawanna concrete, still in service as well.

If they were built well, they'll last forever.

Tunkahannock does show some spalling, but there's a lot of concrete there.

OTOH, I know of a steel girder bridge built on stone piers, that has had one mid-river pier settle.

Remember - there was a time when manpower was cheap and machinery was expensive - and that was the time when many railroad landmarks were built.

Scour of moving water has done in more than one bridge pier - highway or railroad makes no difference, Mother Nature doesn't care whose engineering she defeats.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, September 3, 2020 11:39 AM

zugmann

 

 
NKP guy
   Question for the engineering pro's among us:  Sand-filled stone viaducts, whether for highways or railroads, must cost more than iron & steel bridges (by a factor of what?).  But they last forever.  Why don't more highway departments & railroads see the long-term economic and safety benefits of viaducts?  

 

Shocks Mills had a couple sections collapse in 72 during Hurricane Agnes, and Rockville had part of it fall apart - so I wouldn't say they all last forever. 

 

Some of them last damn near forever.  Here's a list of surviving Roman bridges.  Admittedly, some are in a ruined state, but the usual reason is they were acted upon by outside forces such as acts of war, earthquakes, or sometimes the locals pirating the stone for use as building material long after the legions were gone.

"Go ahead, no-one's lookin'!"  Whistling

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_bridges  

Probably, most likely definately, when the PRR in 1887 started a program to rebuild most of its major bridges under the direction of Chief Engineer William H. Brown those Roman bridges were remembered so they went with stone masonry bridges, believing stone masonry was stronger and more durable than steel, and certainly more so than iron or wood, and hang the expense!  Well, it was the PRR after all, and they could afford to do so.

They certainly felt vindicated when the new masonry bridge at Johnstown PA survived the Flood of 1889 with no problems.

This is not to say masonry bridges don't  have to be maintained, they do, but they just need a lot less of it than others do.

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Posted by zugmann on Thursday, September 3, 2020 11:44 AM

Flintlock76
They certainly felt vindicated when the new masonry bridge at Johnstown PA survived the Flood of 1889 with no problems.

Unless you recall all the debris got caught there and subsequently burned.....

 

Death by drowing, fire, or both? 

 

 Rumor always was that Shocks Mills was not built right.  It wasn't that old...

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by rdamon on Thursday, September 3, 2020 11:51 AM
It depends on who wins the engineering vs. accounting battle!
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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, September 3, 2020 11:58 AM

zugmann
Unless you recall all the debris got caught there and subsequently burned.....

Yes, I'm perfectly aware of that horrific part of the disaster Zug, but the point was the bridge held, even with all those tons of debris piled up against it. 

Whether it might have been better if the bridge collapsed and sent all that debris further down the Conemaugh Valley is another matter.  Somehow I don't think the folks downstream might have thought so. 

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Posted by zugmann on Thursday, September 3, 2020 12:13 PM

And all that happened because of that club.  

 

Tragedy all around.  

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, September 3, 2020 1:37 PM

zugmann

And all that happened because of that club.  

 

Tragedy all around.  

 

No argument with you there.

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Posted by NKP guy on Thursday, September 3, 2020 3:04 PM

   Would I be correct that no one from the South Fork Hunting & Fishing Club went to jail?

   Certainly not the principals.

   This sort of thing would never happen today, would it?

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, September 3, 2020 3:13 PM

NKP guy
Would I be correct that no one from the South Fork Hunting & Fishing Club went to jail?

Well, a large part of that might have had to do with who built the ridiculous reservoir and dam in the first place... and for what purpose.  They essentially abandoned it in place when the canal proved even less profitable than the railroad, and that is how the rich boys acquired their fine lake.  Did you think even tycoons had that kind of capital to spare?

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, September 3, 2020 3:26 PM

Flintlock76
Some of them last damn near forever.  Here's a list of surviving Roman bridges.

If I remember correctly, a proper understanding of Roman hydraulic cement didn't come until the 1880s (for some reason I remember Viollet-le-Duc which seems a bit unlikely) and a certain amount of long-term longevity was sacrificed in structures that used different cement.

For true permanence down the centuries you have to look at Persian bridge construction, which used metal (probably a low-melting lead alloy) as the mortar between stones.  The problem here was the same that threatened the Pequest Fill, that other ultimately less 'destructible' bridge replacement, or much of Nero's Golden House or Hadrian's Villa -- humans seeking cheap building material.

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, September 3, 2020 3:31 PM

Overmod
 Did you think even tycoons had that kind of capital to spare?

Apparently some did.  The Racquette Lake Railroad was built, so the story goes, because Collis Huntington didn't like sitting on a keg of nails on the way to his great camp in the Adirondacks...

Either that, or because his wife told him she wouldn't go to the camp any more unless she could travel by train.  After all, he'd build a transcontinental railroad, surely he could manage seventeen miles through the woods...

From Harry Harter's "Fairy Tale Railroad."

Back on topic - I was going to throw "The Angola Horror" into the fray, but on double-checking the reference, I found that while the incident involved a bridge, the root cause of the disaster was a derailment on a bridge, not the bridge itself.  It'd been a while since I read about it.

LarryWhistling
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