oltmannd In addition to the 85dB limit in the cab, there is a wayside noise limit, as well. Don't remeber what it is, exactly, but manufactures have to verify it on a sample locomotive. Also, horn has to be 96dB 100 ft in front of the locomotive.
In addition to the 85dB limit in the cab, there is a wayside noise limit, as well. Don't remeber what it is, exactly, but manufactures have to verify it on a sample locomotive.
Also, horn has to be 96dB 100 ft in front of the locomotive.
The wayside noise limit is 87 dBA stationary at any throttle and 67 dBA at idle for all locos built after 1/1/1980. The measured values certifying the loco complys with the wayside limits are located on a label in the cab. The limit for measurements of a train passing a stationary microphone is 90 dBA to allow for wheel-rail noise. All measurements are taken at 100 ft from the track centerline.
I was the EMD noise control engineer responsible for cab and wayside noise from mid-1973 to early 1982 before I moved to the truck design group so developed the exhaust silencers and spark arrester-silencers we introduced along with the Q-fans in 1980.
Regarding cab noise, EMD locomotives until the DE/DM30AC and the recent SD70ACe-T4 all have engines and alterntors rigidly bolted to the underframe and any loco without an isolated cab is dominated by structureborne noise transmission at frequencies around 60 Hz, 4th order on a 900 rpm engine and short of isolation of the source or of the cab, no amount of insulation will make it any better than about 85 dBA at full speed/load with the windows shut. Prior to the -2 series, which got polyurethane foam and barrier insulation in the cab roof and the rear of the electrical cabinet, max road loco cab noise was around 90dBA. Switchers were even worse, I measured some SW1001 cabs at 99 dBA at full load, no wonder because you could see the engine room lights thru the cracks in the cab front wall doors. With the MP15's, we sealed up the front wall so they were better but still in the low 90's.
I worked on proposals to isolate the cab that my predecessor had started in the early 70's but got no support from management due the added cost and the fact the RR's weren't demanding anything better. In Sweden, Nohab, our associate built the MZ locos in the late 60's, with isolated cabs and around 1976, in LaGrange we worked with Diesel Division in Canada to develop an isolated cab for New Zealand on G22's IIRC. It wasn't until Conrail demanded improvement in the SD60 cab noise that the project finally got approved for a NA loco.
It was unfortunate that the Kettering team designing the 567 didn't design the generator to bolt directly to the engine which made isolating the powertrain difficult, adding weight and cost. When it was finally decided to design the new 1010J engine to meet Tier 4, mounting the alternator to the crankcase was a design requirement allowing powertrain isolation without a skid. I always maintained that a lot of the electric device problems we had would have gone away with powertrain isolation - people often complained about the expensive devices like air conditioners, refrigerators, cab electronics couldn't be off the shelf commercial parts due to the vibration specs they had to meet.
Dave
tree68 SD70Dude Some guys have bought their own noise-cancelling headphones, but those may run afoul of the ban on personal electronic devices while on duty. Our pumper has headphones with mics for the two front seats. I'm kind of surprised the railroads have not adopted them (price notwithstanding). The headsets serve as hearing protection and an intercom - no yelling across the cab. The radio also comes over the headsets. If we need to talk on the radio, we push a button on one of the earcups. Incoming volume is also adjustable on the headset. The conductor would be able to copy directives from his seat.
SD70Dude Some guys have bought their own noise-cancelling headphones, but those may run afoul of the ban on personal electronic devices while on duty.
Our pumper has headphones with mics for the two front seats. I'm kind of surprised the railroads have not adopted them (price notwithstanding).
The headsets serve as hearing protection and an intercom - no yelling across the cab. The radio also comes over the headsets. If we need to talk on the radio, we push a button on one of the earcups. Incoming volume is also adjustable on the headset.
The conductor would be able to copy directives from his seat.
JPS1 The right-of-way at my favorite train watching spot includes a slight upgrade. Often times I hear the trains coming long before I can see them. As they pass it is clear the locomotives are working hard. The noise level seems high. What is the noise level like inside the cab of a hard-working locomotive? Is the crew required to wear ear plugs or a similar device? Does the periodic medical examination for crew members include a hearing test?
The right-of-way at my favorite train watching spot includes a slight upgrade. Often times I hear the trains coming long before I can see them. As they pass it is clear the locomotives are working hard. The noise level seems high.
What is the noise level like inside the cab of a hard-working locomotive?
Is the crew required to wear ear plugs or a similar device?
Does the periodic medical examination for crew members include a hearing test?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
jeffhergert They're still used on the radios installed in vans and MOW equipment.
I doubt "clean cab" style radios are installed in those cases - they'll likely use commercial style radios, so need the keypad mics.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
JPS1 This is a bit off topic but perhaps not too much. If a train is on a long hold, e.g. waiting to get into the yard, is the crew allowed to read a book, say on a Kindle, or read a newspaper, say on a tablet? I grew up in Altoona. My dad was not a railroader, but he had a friend that was an engineer who spent most of his time, if I remember correctly, working the yard. He was one of the best-read persons that I ever met. He told me that when he had idle time in the locomotive, he would read.
While on duty, unless otherwise specified, reading of items not connected to one's duties is prohibited. Even when stopped.
The use of personal electronics has been eased for us. We, like most railroads, had stricter rules than the original emergency order called for. We can use such devices when stopped and no crewmember is doing a safety related task. Plus a job briefing has been done and everyone agrees such usage is OK.
Speaking of newspapers. A question on a rules test was this: You are getting on a locomotive and upon entering the cab you find a day old newspaper. What do you do with it? As I recall, there were three possible answers. The one they wanted was place it in the trash bag on the locomotive. The actual correct answer, that wasn't one of the choices, is to throw it out the window. I say this because there was one company officer, at an outlying terminal, who would go through the trash and write up the crew if he found a newspaper in it.
Jeff
SD60MAC9500 Speaking of power naps.. Jeff, are UP still making this available to crews?
Speaking of power naps.. Jeff, are UP still making this available to crews?
The rule book still allows it, but I think some Service Units may not.
adkrr64 For those of you running on Class 1's, what style of radio microphones are typically found on the radios mounted in the cab these days? Are they telephone handset style, a handheld pushbutton mic, or no external mic at all (mic embedded in the radio itself)?
For those of you running on Class 1's, what style of radio microphones are typically found on the radios mounted in the cab these days? Are they telephone handset style, a handheld pushbutton mic, or no external mic at all (mic embedded in the radio itself)?
Yes.
All three can be found in use. The radios have a built in mic and there are jacks for hand mics for both (usually) the engineer and conductor. That doesn't mean the jacks are always connected.
I've seen the handsets marked with initials from BNSF, CSX, and NS. I think I may have seen at one time, a SP handset. I haven't seen a UP handset. Some of the pushbutton mic types had a keypad, but I don't see them too often anymore on locomotives. They're still used on the radios installed in vans and MOW equipment.
So, I think Conrail SD60M 5544 was the first "Whisper Cab". The FRA rules allow 85dB in the cab, but OSHA and lots of other data showed that 80dB was max you could endure for 8 hours, day in and day out, without hearing loss. So, Conrail's Director of Equipment Engineering decided to push EMD to get to 80dB. The first order under this policy was the Spartan cabbed SD60s. The lead time for the engineering was insufficient, so all they got was some rubber flooring and the horn relocated to the middle of the long hood instead of over the cab - which was good for a few dB.
The next EMD order after that was the SD60Ms and the last unit of the 1991 order had the prototype Whisper Cab. It got under the 80dB limit using a whole host of tricks including not having the frame mounted walkway handrails attached to the cab. They just stub-ended an inch from the cab.
The biggest complaint on the noise was that it was hard to hear the horn with the windows shut.
JPS1This is a bit off topic but perhaps not too much. If a train is on a long hold, e.g. waiting to get into the yard, is the crew allowed to read a book, say on a Kindle, or read a newspaper, say on a tablet?
We had a rule in the book (it's probably still there - I'd have to dig) that even limited print reading materials to "company materials."
JPS1This is a bit off topic but perhaps not too much. If a train is on a long hold, e.g. waiting to get into the yard, is the crew allowed to read a book, say on a Kindle, or read a newspaper, say on a tablet? I grew up in Altoona. My dad was not a railroader, but he had a friend that was an engineer who spent most of his time, if I remember correctly, working the yard. He was one of the best-read persons that I ever met. He told me that when he had idle time in the locomotive, he would read.
As Overmod stated the 2008 Metrolink crash resulted in making the operation of any and all private electronic devices verboten. Weed Weasels enforce it. If the crew becomes involved in any incident - personal electronic devices are among the first things that get checked to see if the crew has been in compliance.
Other than company required reading material - all else is also verboten.
For the last few years of Michael Ward's reign on CSX train crews, after being informed of a a extened hold, in addition to shutting down power other than the lead unit for fuel conservation had 'authority' to take a upto 45 minute power nap - one at a time. The EHH regime abolished the napping.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
JPS1If a train is on a long hold, e.g. waiting to get into the yard, is the crew allowed to read a book, say on a Kindle, or read a newspaper, say on a tablet?
Depending on railroad you might not be allowed 'personal reading' even on 'non-proscribed media' during nominally on-duty time ... you should be watching for danger (or something in the Company interest like learning the rules better and better) rather than amusing yourself.
See the evolving controversy about power naps during these extended stops.
tree68The conductor would be able to copy directives from his seat.
They do now....?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
SD70Dude EMD has switched to a isolated powertrain for the SD70ACe-T4, and the combination of this and the muffling effect of multiple turbos and the exhaust silencer seems to work great, I haven't been on one of the EMDX demonstrators yet but everyone who has raves about how quiet they are.
EMD has switched to a isolated powertrain for the SD70ACe-T4, and the combination of this and the muffling effect of multiple turbos and the exhaust silencer seems to work great, I haven't been on one of the EMDX demonstrators yet but everyone who has raves about how quiet they are.
With the 1010J the turbos are at the rear of the engine. Which I'm sure is a welcomed change for T&E folks such as yourself. Many years ago before the Conrail breakup. I was in the cab of a SD50 in Run 8. Loud as all hell. I recall looking out the hoggers window, and the grab rails were vibrating like a tuning fork.
jeffhergert too quiet
too quiet
Now there's a complaint that I can honestly say I've never heard before!
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
As mentioned, on the UP ear plugs are required when outside the cab or with the windows open. Years ago, crewmen were prohibitied from wearing hearing protection. I'm sure the FELA lawsuits about hearing loss over the years changed the railroad's minds. The required hearing exams not only look for minimum requirements, but also changes in hearing. Two exams ago, my hearing got better just by changing examiners. There is a field test for those who's office exams are questionable.
I've never really had a problem with the engine (prime mover) noise. Moving the horns off the cab and onto the long hood was a big improvement. The newest EMD SD70Ace variant (I haven't kept up with all the sub identity alphabet soup) to me is too quiet when the window's are closed. I listen to changes in the engine's pitch as it revs up or down.
I wear my earplugs from the moment I leave the originating crew room until I reach the terminating crew room. Or get in a van to be transported to the final tie up location.
About those earplugs that make it hard to hear the radio or other normal railroad sounds. Where do you get those because the ones we use aren't that good.
I should have mentioned that the locomotives appeared to be GE Dash 9s. One of them appeared to have been just recently painted or given a thorough bath.
I usually have to look up the locomotives when I get home. Which is what I did, and they match the pictures of the GE Dash 9.
You're making me feel like some sort of celebrity.
Hearing loss is a occupational disease among railroaders. Hearing tests are part of our periodic medicals in Canada too (we go every 3 or 5 years depending on one's age, or every single year if you are over 65), and I have no idea how some guys manage to pass them, a number of my older co-workers are deaf to point of being unsafe, as they cannot reliably hear radio conversations when switching.
CN stocks foam earplugs at yard offices (unless someone forgot to order them), but so far the use of hearing protection is not mandatory. Some guys have bought their own noise-cancelling headphones, but those may run afoul of the ban on personal electronic devices while on duty.
As has been said, the cab noise level greatly depends on the type of locomotive. Units with the original EMD WhisperCab (SD60I, SD70I, SD75I, and some SD70MACs and SD90MACs) are by far the quietest, and that is a big part of why our SD75's are my favourite units to operate. The Phase II WhisperCab (some SD70M-2 and SD70ACe's) is not as quiet as the original version, but is still far better than the non-isolated 'ThunderCab'.
I never thought anything could be louder than a GP9 or SD40-2 until I got out of the yard and started riding our SD70M-2's on a regular basis, those Phase II ThunderCabs are absolutely horrible. I've actually had the earplugs vibrate right out of my ears on several occasions.
In tests, the EMD WhisperCab has been shown to be quieter at full throttle than a ThunderCab is at idle.
GE started using a isolated powertrain (the engine, generator etc are rubber-mounted instead of the cab) with the introduction of the Evolution Series circa 2005. Previous GE units have no cab soundproofing whatsoever, and while they don't seem quite as loud as EMDs the 4-stroke chug translates into a terrible rattle that shakes everything loose inside the cab.
It is common to see wads of paper towels or other available materials stuffed into cracks all over the cab, on both GE and EMD units.
Though new locomotive cabs are much quieter I don't think the issue of railroader hearing loss will ever go away completely, as Conductors and Switchmen are subjected to the racket of cars smashing together and squealing through switches and curves, as well as this hisses and pops of compressed air exhausting. Wearing earplugs out on the lead could actually compromise safety, as you need every available bit of hearing to listen for moving equipment and radio transmissions, over and above the normal racket of an active railyard.
Rubbing hands together anticipating Bob Smith's reply to this question...
Honestly it depends on the locomotive. When I worked for UP on the Roseville Service Unit we were required to wear earplugs when we were outside of the cab. Inside usually wasn't any worse than a car going down the highway. The isolated cab SD70ACes were bad because the rubber bushings squeeked constantly!
JPS1The right-of-way at my favorite train watching spot includes a slight upgrade. Often times I hear the trains coming long before I can see them. As they pass it is clear the locomotives are working hard. The noise level seems high. What is the noise level like inside the cab of a hard-working locomotive? Is the crew required to wear ear plugs or a similar device? Does the periodic medical examination for crew members include a hearing test?
For engineers and conductors in the US, hearing tests must be performed as part of a FRA required requalification process that typically takes place every three years. I imagine something similar is in place in Canada.
As for interior cab noise, it is going to vary a lot based on the age and style of equipment. I run vintage locomotives on a scenic RR, and the noisiest are F units in notch 8. Our Alcos also make a fair amount of noise in high nothches but for whatever reason, the noise seems to penetrate the cab less than the F's. We are supposed to wear hearing protection when running in high nothches, but that can create other problems, like clearly hearing the radio communication.
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