My thread was removed because a second issue was introduced which proceeded to a an apparent violation of guidelines.
Yhis is a reintroduction of the original topic in the hopes that the technical discussion on handling chenicals can continue without specific reference to the tragedy that brought the issue to my attention.
I do suggest, however, that the original thread be reposted with all postings of arguments not related to the technical topic deleted from the thread and then the thread locked. That way, the technical matters already posted can be referenced for this thread. Thank you,
deleted
There's been a number of threads deleted lately without explaination where things got, shall we say, a little out of hand.
Learn from it all, no finger-pointing, no "blame-gaming," and move on.
I'm sure that Tree can give much better examples, but I have seen some strange things. You don't always need spark or flame contact to ignite a fire. If air is heated above the kindling temperature of solid combustables that it surrounds, they can light up like a candle. I'm sure that "fumes" are even more so at risk to ignite.
CO,
The term is autoignition temperature. Most flammable liquids and flammable gasses are in the range of about 800 degrees F. This is low enough that exhaust manifolds can ignite a flammable mixture, but the walls of a container, or truck, or boxcar never get anywhere near the autoignition temperature. Of course you need a leak from the container to release any flammable vapors and containers are designed not to leak in normal transportation.
The notion being promoted is a ghost story/bit of propaganda. Take your choice.
Mac McCulloch
Former Bureau of Explosives Inspector
daveklepperI do suggest, however that the originals thread be reposted with all postings of arguments not related to the technical topic deleted from the thread and then the thread locked. That way, the technical matters already posted can be referenced for this thread.
No, it's a new topic and very little if anything from the Middle East accident is necessary for a proper and on-point technical discussion.
Ammonium nitrate derives some of its hazard from having the element nitrogen in two different 'valence' states. It also contains oxygen that when energetically released can support combustion in materials that are 'oxidizable' including carbon and aluminum. The first peculiar concern is that both decomposition and any subsequent combustion can be greatly accelerated in speed over normal fuel combustion: this is why ANFO readily detonates with good yield.
However, the chemical can also start deflagrating (chemically dissociating with substantial rate of exothermic heat release to sustain or worsen, much as a fire does with regular combustion) and for a number of reasons the rate at which the dissociation speed increases with more and more heating can reach the speed of sound in the local material. At this point faster burning creates a shock wave causing prompt dissociation, which can propagate at many thousands of feet per second through the remainder of a contiguous mass. This is the deflagration-to-detonation threshold I mentioned in the dead thread.
Ammonium nitrate is difficult to vaporize, and its vapor is not terrifically dangerous in air. So having it up against a hot surface is not a 'vapor' danger, and even if it were, a BLEVE is impossible because there is no boiling expansion to generate a fuel-air critical mixture in the presence of good flameholding.
Someone like Tree can, and should, quote us current best practice on fighting fires where ammonium nitrate (or something truly more alarming to me, ammonium perchlorate that might have formed peroxides) might be concerned.
PNWRMNM but the walls of a container, or truck, or boxcar never get anywhere near the autoignition temperature. Of course you need a leak from the container to release any flammable vapors and containers are designed not to leak in normal transportation.
It's noteworthy how many people seem to believe that some precautions are "overkill", because accidents only happen to "stupid" people. Until, that is, a sequence of events, however improbable ....manage to all align at just the most inopportune moment.
I'm not saying the "propaganda" is plausible......but strange things do ocassionally have a knack of happening.
Personally, I still have my money riding on "sabotage", but perhaps that's just the tinfoil hatter in me?
Convicted OnePersonally, I still have my money riding on "sabotage",
No, I'm not buying the sabotage angle myself, if sabotage caused this they're really going to have to prove it to me.
Probably just an unfortunate series of events that lead to the disaster. No oversight, no safety inspections, an "It's not my job!" attitude from various and sundry officials, or some baksheesh to other officials, and there you go. Boom.
OvermodSomeone like Tree can, and should, quote us current best practice on fighting fires where ammonium nitrate (or something truly more alarming to me, ammonium perchlorate that might have formed peroxides) might be concerned.
As a first responder (firefighter), I'm going straight to the "Orange Book" once I identify the substance. Ammonium nitrate (in various forms UN numbers 0222, 1942, 2067, 2071, 2426, and 3375) calls for Guide 140 (except for AN-fuel, which is 113), and ammonium perchlorate (UN numbers 0402 and 1442) calls for Guide 143.
For fire, the ERG calls for an 800 meter isolation zone, as well as considering evacuation for 800 meters - a half mile. That's if the container is involved. If the AN itself is involved, that expands to one mile.
For ANFO, we start at isolation for 1,600 meters (a mile).
The ERG is guidance for about the first 10 minutes. After that, the Incident Commander should have guidance from other sources as well.
The ideal situation calls for big water (flooding quantities), applied from unmanned devices. This assumes there is time to set up big water, and that big water is even available.
Texas City, West, and now Beirut underline the wisdom of immediate observance of these distances.
The ERG is available on-line, and for smart phones. Railfans might find it interesting to observe and reference the placards they see going by as they watch.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Flintlock76Probably just an unfortunate series of events that lead to the disaster. No oversight, no safety inspections, an "It's not my job!" attitude from various and sundry officials, or some baksheesh to other officials, and there you go. Boom.
This is my take as well.
tree68 Texas City, West, and now Beirut underline the wisdom of immediate observance of these distances.
IIRC, the quantity involved with West was about one RR carload's worth.
A couple of things come to mind with haulage of AN:First is separating AN carrying train from petroleum carrying trains.Second may be a coating on the cars to at least briefly block the heat from a fire and allow enough time for an evacuation.
Storage of AN is more of concern than hauling it.
Threads used to get locked; now they are totally removed, twice in a row. In any case, moderators us usually take action only after receiving abuse reports. I wonder who felt the need to do that?
Overmod, if you don't need the old threqd, neither do I. In any casem it is up to the Moderator. Glad to read your post.
daveklepper Overmod, if you don't need the old threqd, neither do I. In any casem it is up to the Moderator. Glad to read your post.
Hmm. You sure are happy that the original thread was deleted. Did you report the previous thread?
Well, I hit the "destruct" button on one of them, I just don't remember which one.
Flintlock76 Well, I hit the "destruct" button on one of them, I just don't remember which one.
Apparently the report abuse button has been changed into a thread deletion button.
EuclidApparently the report abuse button has been changed into a thread deletion button.
It's strictly a "report" button," what the "powers that be" do with the report is up to them. I got no questions as to "whys" or "wherefores" from any moderators whoever they may be, nor any promise as to any actions that might be taken.
Flintlock76 Euclid Apparently the report abuse button has been changed into a thread deletion button. It's strictly a "report" button," what the "powers that be" do with the report is up to them. I got no questions as to "whys" or "wherefores" from any moderators whoever they may be, nor any promise as to any actions that might be taken.
Euclid Apparently the report abuse button has been changed into a thread deletion button.
If the topic is not to your liking, don't look at it. There was no flaming or abuse whatsoever. Free speech is part of our American heritage.
Euclid and I usually disagree, but we have both always upheld the value of open discussions as long as the language is civil. Heavy-handed censorship is un-American.
It wasn't personal abuse directed towards me, I can take whatever's thrown at me, I'm a big boy. Besides, in my lifetime I've been worked over by churlish amateurs and trained professionals and learned how to deal with it.
WHY I pushed the button is for me to know, and free speech, which I have no problem with as a "small 'd' democrat" had nothing to do with it.
So don't ask. Consider it a point to ponder.
Let's just say my pushing the button was due to a horrendous drift from published Forum guidelines, and if the moderators aren't paying attention I'll do my best to see that they do.
At any rate, I didn't complain about the previous Beirut explosion thread, I found it quite interesting and wouldn't have commented myself if I didn't find it so.
As far as threads I did complain about, well I'm not going to hide behind the anonymity of the Internet, if in fact the moderators did act on my complaints and didn't find out about it themselves.
You've made great contributions to threads that have nothing to do with railroading, such as with airplanes. So it wasn't the off topic guideline. Nor was the thread political. So what specific guideline was the impetus for your need to attempt to have free speech curtailed?
Re-read my previous post, I didn't complain about the Beirut explosion thread.
Where I have complained is on threads where politics have been gratuitously injected and don't belong. I daresay most of us, especially me, come to the Forum as an escape from the world, for a time at least, and don't care to have it following us in here.
Politics in the "Transit" and "Passenger" threads I find perfectly acceptable and understandably so, considering both are subsidized by taxpayers who have every right to a say in how their money is spent.
I hope that suffices. Aside from that, with all due respect Charlie I don't work for you, so I answer to you either.
Sorry if I misunderstood you in terms of about which threads you have complained to moderators. So the question remains, who is the person(s) who has sought to delete several entire threads? Someone who likes censorship and hides behind the moderators? In a club like this, and in society as a whole, we are ALL accountable to each other. Otherwise we have chaos or the need for dictatorial measures for which there is no accountability or recourse or appeal. It starts go resemble Stalinist Russia, where purged leaders were airbrushed out of photos, as though they had never existed.
charlie hebdo who is the person(s) who has sought to delete several entire threads?
I don't need to know myself, although I will admit to making complaints, I don't do the "Family Circle" thing of "Not-me" and "Ida Know."
However, IF a thread is deleted completely or locked I WOULD like to hear directly from the moderator as to why. I do think as a group we're owed that much, especially if were Kalmbach magazine subscribers, three in my case. We pay the bills after all. It used to be the case when a thread was locked we were told why, that's the way it's done on the "Model Railroader" Forum.
charlie hebdo So the question remains, who is the person(s) who has sought to delete several entire threads? Someone who likes censorship and hides behind the moderators? In a club like this, and in society as a whole, we are ALL accountable to each other. Otherwise we have chaos or the need for dictatorial measures for which there is no accountability or recourse or appeal.
I think you need to look at the bigger picture. If the moderators went through and pruned just the content they found objectionable, how would that make you feel if your content was what got pruned?
I'm not thrilled about the deletion of thread(s), but at least by nuking the threads in their entirety, they avoid the blame for "playing favorites". A lesser of the two evils, IMO.
When they do the things that they do, I just take it as a sign to go on to some other topic.
It is their forum, they have every right to marshal it as they deem fit.
It used to be threads were locked, or locked temporarily while offensive post(s) we're removed. Sometimes warnings to all publically or privately to individuals were given by moderators prior to taking any drastic action.
I know....I remember. (yes, but...etc) just about everybody has some formula by which they carve an exception out of the rules by which they convince themselves that "their" content should not be viewed as a violation. There is an example of this in this very thread. And just to be fair to all, I will include myself as not blameless in this regard.
Sometimes the military threads here veer into the realm of what I consider "non-productive celebration of death". It's often a matter of perspective where one group is inconsiderate of the sensitivities of others. Just because the victor gets to write their version of history does not necessarily mean that their POV is just, or objective.
I think that the current moderation deserves some appreciation for objectivity, which is all we can really hope for. So, when entire threads go *poof*, at least no faction is being treated with favoritism. I prefer that over the way things used to be long ago...YMMV.
charlie hebdoIt used to be threads were locked, or locked temporarily while offensive post(s) we're removed. Sometimes warnings to all publically or privately to individuals were given by moderators prior to taking any drastic action.
There was a time we knew who the moderators were, too...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Convicted OneI think you need to look at the bigger picture. If the moderators went through and pruned just the content they found objectionable, how would that make you feel if your content was what got pruned?
Pretty much how another website operates. Don't want to name names, but in a completely random thought, when was the last time the railroads used train orders?
Then again - I'm pretty much used to having my posts go "poof" on here.
Flintlock76 .....Where I have complained is on threads where politics have been gratuitously injected and don't belong. I daresay most of us, especially me, come to the Forum as an escape from the world, for a time at least, and don't care to have it following us in here......
.....Where I have complained is on threads where politics have been gratuitously injected and don't belong. I daresay most of us, especially me, come to the Forum as an escape from the world, for a time at least, and don't care to have it following us in here......
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
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