Trains.com

How Long Can Rail Bed Maintenance Be Deferred

3356 views
27 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    January 2015
  • 2,678 posts
How Long Can Rail Bed Maintenance Be Deferred
Posted by kgbw49 on Thursday, July 23, 2020 10:53 PM

Given the financial struggles the railroads are experiencing, I am wondering how long rail bed maintenance can be deferred before it starts impacting service levels.

This question arose when I saw this:

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/743146/

  • Member since
    December 2017
  • From: I've been everywhere, man
  • 4,269 posts
Posted by SD70Dude on Friday, July 24, 2020 12:11 AM

It's amazing what a telephoto lens can do.  

Weed spraying is one of the many things that were cancelled during Hunter Harrison's time here.  All that growth is from spilled grain, which also attracts wildlife to the tracks.  

It is amazing how long you can ride a good physical plant into the ground, CN did it for the better part of 10 years in this area.

That photo is only a few miles west of one of the stretches of double track that Hunter ripped up, and now the National Park won't let CN put it back.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Friday, July 24, 2020 1:17 AM

What does that location appear like now?

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • From: Iowa
  • 3,293 posts
Posted by Semper Vaporo on Friday, July 24, 2020 9:02 AM

You can defer maintenance until there is a bad accident, then you should have done some repair work the week before.

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 9,728 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, July 24, 2020 9:43 AM

kgbw49

Given the financial struggles the railroads are experiencing, I am wondering how long rail bed maintenance can be deferred before it starts impacting service levels.

This question arose when I saw this:

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/743146/

 

Amazing, especially when you consider back in the old days a division superintendant would have gotten reamed for letting things get out of control like that.

  • Member since
    December 2017
  • From: I've been everywhere, man
  • 4,269 posts
Posted by SD70Dude on Friday, July 24, 2020 9:59 AM

Nowadays you would get reemed for wasting your budget on "non-essentials".  

CN did start running a spray train again last year, and it just passed through this area again a couple weeks ago.  It has helped, as will all the new (not as leaky) grain cars that are currently on order, to go along with the ~1000 new cars that are already in service.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, July 24, 2020 10:17 AM

Spillage from covered hoppers is fairly minimal when compared to that from boxcars in grain service.  Taconite spillage from ore jennies may be hazardous to the conductor's health.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    April 2007
  • 4,557 posts
Posted by Convicted One on Friday, July 24, 2020 10:28 AM

Looks  as though they have turned the sleepers into chia pets?  Could this be paert of a green solution offering the ties a renewable shield from UV damage?  Mischief

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Friday, July 24, 2020 11:12 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH
Spillage from covered hoppers is fairly minimal when compared to that from boxcars in grain service.  Taconite spillage from ore jennies may be hazardous to the conductor's health.

Taconite spillage is hazardous to any man or animal that tries to walk across the area where the spillage is.  Walking on ball bearings !

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,919 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, July 24, 2020 11:54 AM

One has to wonder how long the almighty god of lower ORs will mean a bunch of derailments and slow orders ?  Worse still lower MAS for passenger trains.

  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Friday, July 24, 2020 9:52 PM

I was startled by a recent look at one of the Train Watcher's Guide to Chicago books recently.  Although the roadbeds looked normal to me at the time (1970s), they look terrible to me now!  And I can remember in the early 1980s that CNW's track by our commuter station regularly had standing water between the rails.  It may take a little while, but I wonder whether UP will emulate that in their efforts to turn an ever-bigger profit.

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, July 25, 2020 7:20 AM

CShaveRR
I was startled by a recent look at one of the Train Watcher's Guide to Chicago books recently.  Although the roadbeds looked normal to me at the time (1970s), they look terrible to me now!  And I can remember in the early 1980s that CNW's track by our commuter station regularly had standing water between the rails.  It may take a little while, but I wonder whether UP will emulate that in their efforts to turn an ever-bigger profit.

I concur in your thought processes - viewing the roadbed conditions when I hired out in 1965 and through subsequent years I thought what I was seeing was 1st class --- it wasn't it was deferred maintenance overtaking what once was 1st class.

Subsequent years of profitable operations of my carrier permitted it to raise the level of maintenance to a level one should expect of a Class 1 carrier.  PSR I fear is returning the rights of way to the level of disrepair I experienced when I hired out.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    December 2017
  • 100 posts
Posted by PennsyBoomer on Saturday, July 25, 2020 1:41 PM

kgbw49
Given the financial struggles the railroads are experiencing, I am wondering how long rail bed maintenance can be deferred before it starts impacting service levels.

Ask anyone familiar with Penn Central. It can be deferred to significant extent with predictable results. The railroad can be slow-ordered so that trains stall on grades, fail to get over the road during crews' hours of service and derailments become a commonality. At one point during PC years, the Trenton Cut-off was in such bad shape that precipitation caused so many track circuits to be shunted from bad insulated joints that it was found trains made better time operating against the current of traffic with train orders rather than under block signal indication, going from one stop and proceed signal to the next. 

The lessons of deferred maintenance have stood up well over the years with (I suggest) a predominance of the track structure kept in very good state. Temptations to cut cost are perhaps more profound than ever, coupled with a seeming lack of willingness to generate traffic. So these temptations may increase, but the ultimate result can be chaotic to operating efficiency and costly to reverse. 

 

  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: South Central,Ks
  • 7,170 posts
Posted by samfp1943 on Saturday, July 25, 2020 10:13 PM

BaltACD
CShaveRR

I concur in your thought processes - viewing the roadbed conditions when I hired out in 1965 and through subsequent years I thought what I was seeing was 1st class --- it wasn't it was deferred maintenance overtaking what once was 1st class.

Subsequent years of profitable operations of my carrier permitted it to raise the level of maintenance to a level one should expect of a Class 1 carrier.  PSR I fear is returning the rights of way to the level of disrepair I experienced when I hired out.

 

 
      In years, and conditions past; railroads seemed to show success when tracks were maintained to levels where trains were able to 'run' and maintain schedules.  As financial conditions began to slide towards unprofitibility; maintenance seemed to be the area taking the 'financial hits'.   Speed restrictions became the 'rule', tie replacement seemed to go to longer and longer cycles, as did worn rails, certainly, structure maintenance was right in there as well.
 
The MKT RR was one line that seemed to be in and out of financial difficulties, until it bacame part of the UPRR in 1988.   There were stories of deferred maintenance that had parked trains ( for whatever reasons). That derailed in place, as the gauge widened beneath the parked  trains. I am pretty sure that, with research, one can find other such stories on other railroads in similar financial straits.
 
 
 

 

 


 

  • Member since
    December 2017
  • From: I've been everywhere, man
  • 4,269 posts
Posted by SD70Dude on Sunday, July 26, 2020 12:07 AM

Sam, the technical term for that is a "standing derailment".  Penn Central had lots of them.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

  • Member since
    March 2015
  • 171 posts
Posted by kenny dorham on Sunday, July 26, 2020 11:05 PM
This is an interesting thread. Railroads are just a "casual" concern of mine..... i like trains. But i had no idea of the poor state of the railroads in the usa. The UP runs 300 yards from my house. I am in Elk Grove CA 95624. where i am....the rains run right over our downtown street.... the tracks and ballast look fine.
  • Member since
    December 2017
  • From: I've been everywhere, man
  • 4,269 posts
Posted by SD70Dude on Sunday, July 26, 2020 11:09 PM

There are not nearly as many grain trains in California as there are in western Canada.

Some crops are genetically modified to be resistant to that most common of herbicides (glyphosate/Roundup), making them harder to kill even when the spray train does show up.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

  • Member since
    January 2002
  • From: Canterlot
  • 9,575 posts
Posted by zugmann on Monday, July 27, 2020 10:06 AM

Our yard doesn't seem to be as bad in recent years - I would account that for a lot of newer hoppers that we now have show up.   Used to have the bottom of the barrel 50-year hoppers that were being held together by rust and reflective tape. 

Guess many of those have hauled their last loads. 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

  • Member since
    December 2017
  • From: I've been everywhere, man
  • 4,269 posts
Posted by SD70Dude on Monday, July 27, 2020 11:23 AM

Former Rock Island cars with 'bankruptcy blue' showing through their later paint are still a regular sight out here (IC and Grand Trunk Western bought lots after the Rock went down).  The 'Trudeau' hoppers are just as old.

CN has a total of 2500 new high-capacity grain hoppers either in service or on order, CP is also in the process of replacing their fleet.  Many grain companies are also acquiring their own fleets of brand new cars.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 9,728 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, July 27, 2020 3:47 PM

Some of those old Rock Island hoppers showed up here a few years ago, kind of a shock if you knew what you were looking at.  Typically the oldest rolling stock observed were Southern Railway boxcars with the "Southern Serves The South" logo.  You darn well knew they hadn't seen a paint shop in decades!

Deferred maintanance?  Well there is the old saying, "Pay now, or pay later!"  Cars, buildings, or railroads, it will catch up with you eventually.

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: Mission BC Canada
  • 218 posts
Posted by williamsb on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 11:16 AM

I note that this picture is from 2011, not long after CN had gotten rid of EHH. I have many pictures taken by Tim Stevens at Henry House and the track looks just fine. Try finding Tim's picture of ET44AC 3285 on Railpictures or any of the many fine pictures he has from around Jasper AB.

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • 2,678 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 12:13 PM

Roger that it was a 2011 picture.

The original post was just a question for discussion.

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,919 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, July 30, 2020 12:52 AM

Although this is unlikely - have to ask.  Could the bridge derailment at Tempte Wedensday and the other one also there June 26 have been due to deferred maintenance ?

  • Member since
    September 2014
  • 7 posts
Posted by DARYL ACHENBACH on Thursday, July 30, 2020 9:41 PM
The ball bearings spilled on the r-o-w were occasionally used by RR Special Agents with wrist sling shots in undesirable neighborhoods in a large city. The thieves were not happy with that.
  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Hotchkiss, Colorado
  • 294 posts
Posted by steve24944 on Friday, July 31, 2020 9:16 AM

 

UP North Fork Branch, Western Colorado.  From Grand Junction to Delta and up the Valley to the West Elk Mine, The track is well maintained for the heavy coal trains.  The Montrose Branch South out of Delta is a different story.  This branch line gets one train a week. Loads in on Tuesday, and empties back to Grand Junction on Wednesday. The track on this branch gets little to no maintenance.  Trains run at 10 MPH.  The ties are very old, haven’t been replaced in decades.  There are ties that have no tie plates, rail spiked right on top of the tie.  Some of the tie plates are an older lightweight  type. UP has a tamper machine regularly working the North Fork Branch, however I don’t ever recall seeing a tamper working the Montrose Branch.   But the train move the cars across this old section of old track, so the loads get delivered.

 

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Valparaiso, In
  • 5,921 posts
Posted by MP173 on Friday, July 31, 2020 10:17 AM

Steve:

My wife and I were out to Colorado a few years ago and spent one night in Paonia - just east of Delta.  The rail line looked great.  I asked the B&B operator about trains running thru and she erupted into a dissertation about the evil of coal mines and fires burning underground an how the world was coming to an end.  I changed subjects and inquired where we should eat dinner...

Anyway, the next morning I hear a train and attempted to get in front of it for a photo...no such luck as it was moving at about 40mph.

Question - how often are coal trains loaded on that line?

That is a great part of Colorado.  Really pretty valley and a couple of nice wineries.  

I also got into quite a discussion on "water rights" - we never have that issue here in Indiana.  

BTW, we ate at the Hightower Cafe in Paonia where my wife had excellent rainbow trout...my pastromi rueben was pretty good also.  Would love to return.  Maybe next year if COVID cooperates.

 

ed

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Hotchkiss, Colorado
  • 294 posts
Posted by steve24944 on Friday, July 31, 2020 11:15 AM

MP173

Steve:

My wife and I were out to Colorado a few years ago and spent one night in Paonia - just east of Delta.  The rail line looked great.  I asked the B&B operator about trains running thru and she erupted into a dissertation about the evil of coal mines and fires burning underground an how the world was coming to an end.  I changed subjects and inquired where we should eat dinner...

Anyway, the next morning I hear a train and attempted to get in front of it for a photo...no such luck as it was moving at about 40mph.

Question - how often are coal trains loaded on that line?

That is a great part of Colorado.  Really pretty valley and a couple of nice wineries.  

I also got into quite a discussion on "water rights" - we never have that issue here in Indiana.  

BTW, we ate at the Hightower Cafe in Paonia where my wife had excellent rainbow trout...my pastromi rueben was pretty good also.  Would love to return.  Maybe next year if COVID cooperates.

 

ed

 

 

The West Elk Mine loads between 4-6 Trains a week.  Back when we had 5 Mines in operation there were sometimes 3-4  trains a day.
 
As to your question about water.   Western Colorado is basically a high desert. Without Reservoirs and Irrigation ditches agriculture would not be possible.  All of the water is claimed by someone.  One is not allowed to take water unless you have a right to take that water.  Across the State there are many Ditch and Reservoir companies.  People on these irrigation systems get shares of water.  These shares of water are very valuable.  Each ditch has a ditch rider.  The ditch rider’s job is to set the boxes that diverts the water out of the main ditch into the laterals that serves the individual properties.  No one but the ditch rider is allowed to mess with the diversion box.  I have heard stories about people getting into fights over the setting of ditch boxes.  This year my ditch has run out of water just last week.  There can be a call for late water, but that is only about a 2 day supply.  In 2018 my ditch shut down on July 6th.  In 2019 the ditch ran to the end of August.   Depends on the snowpack up in the mountains.
Steve

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    August 2006
  • 575 posts
Posted by alphas on Friday, July 31, 2020 11:59 AM

Back in 2004-2007 my one daughter and her family lived in Fernly, NV while her husband was stationed at the Fallon Naval Air Station about 30 miles away.   The Fallon branch of the UP from Hazen had a daily round trip (and a good amount of business) on a line that the speed limit was also 10 MPH.    Fom Hazen until near Fallon the line was so bad the cars were definitely "rocken and rollin" everytime I saw them.    It was amazing to me that they stayed on the track.  

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy