"And I'm hovering like a fly, waiting for the windshield on the freeway." https://www.progressiverailroading.com/federal_legislation_regulation/news/Study-shows-major-diversion-of-freight-from-rail-to-roads-if-bigger-trucks-allowed--60982 A recent study by the Coalition Against Bigger Trucks has revealed that if truck weight and size restrictions were relaxed, intermodal and carload traffic could drop by 25% or even as much as 60% in some scenarios. As much as people may not want to see weight limits increased, it is almost a guarantee that it will. The US lags behind much of the world in terms of truck weight, with Europe having a higher weight limit than the US. You can also be sure that trucking companies and shippers will fight hard to accomplish this goal. It is essentially inevitable, but as much as it may not be pleasant, as has been said in previous comments on this forums, even if railroad traffic were to dramatically decline, road traffic increase would be manageable. This study also demonstrates the point that intermodal has reached its zenith, with little to no growth venues left and that trucking is on course to take back what little share from the rails that it lost. Also in the news, TuSimple is planning to launch an automated truck network ahead of its fully autonomous commercial launch. https://venturebeat.com/2020/07/01/tusimple-plans-autonomous-truck-network-backed-by-ups/ Note how UPS is a very big backer of this. Don't expect to see their containers or trailers on the rails for much longer. How is rail going to compete in this new environment? Every competitive advantage the industry once had is being stripped away. It is well on its way to becoming a mode of transport that is both slower and more expensive. Railroads right now the hovering fly, waiting to be smacked down by the windshield of regulatory and technological advancement.
If they want to survive, the class 1's will have to overhaul their entire operating and customer service philosophy at some point. They'll need to get robust sales and service departments that actually serve the customers, and they'll have to run shorter and more frequent trains to ensure more timely service.
The question is whether they'll do any of that in time to avoid extinction. Bulk commodities are the low-hanging fruit for railroads, but a lot of that is going away and will never come back.
"ttrraaffiicc" posted on Saturday, July 18, 2020 10:49 AM -- How is rail going to compete in this new environment? Every competitive advantage the industry once had is being stripped away. It is well on its way to becoming a mode of transport that is both slower and more expensive.
How is rail going to compete in this new environment? Every competitive advantage the industry once had is being stripped away. It is well on its way to becoming a mode of transport that is both slower and more expensive.
Well, you know what they say. "Whatever is best for the consumer, is best for America".
Except for death, there are few things in life, especially economics, that are inevitable.
A study that predicts a drop of 25% to 60% is worthless. Anyone familiar with predictive analytics would ignore it straightaway.
Some of our posters at this site can surely find employment at the Class 1 with their "progressive skills" and save them from their demise. HA
Yeah, let's increase truck weight - since our roads are in such GREEEEEAAAT shape.
I hope you get paid for these posts. Otherwise, I have zero clue why you're here.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmannYeah, let's increase truck weight - since our roads are in such GREEEEEAAAT shape.
The problem is, it isn't up to your and I. The trucking industry and manufacturers are going to push hard for this. Truck weights in the US are already well below international standards.
zugmann Yeah, let's increase truck weight - since our roads are in such GREEEEEAAAT shape. I hope you get paid for these posts. Otherwise, I have zero clue why you're here.
I don't know about the rest of Europe, but the concrete on Germany's Autobahn is three feet thick! It can take any pounding you throw at it.
How many American highways are three feet thick? Not too many I'd guess.
Flintlock76How many American highways are three feet thick? Not too many I'd guess.
The Interstate System was originally built to handle M60 tanks and the like. Whether they are still capable of that will have to come from someone more familiar with such construction than moi.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Flintlock76 zugmann Yeah, let's increase truck weight - since our roads are in such GREEEEEAAAT shape. I hope you get paid for these posts. Otherwise, I have zero clue why you're here. I don't know about the rest of Europe, but the concrete on Germany's Autobahn is three feet thick! It can take any pounding you throw at it. How many American highways are three feet thick? Not too many I'd guess.
Lowest bidders don't build with 3 foot thick concrete.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
To be fair, lowest bidders are not bidding on building three foot thick highways. They build what is specified by the DOT.
EnzoampsTo be fair, lowest bidders are not bidding on building three foot thick highways. They build what is specified by the DOT.
And then get their sharp pencils reved up to cut corners on what is in the specs.
I have wondered if the quality of road construction in the US is as advanced as it could be? It seems that it doesn't take long for new pavement to start cracking up at concrete joints for instance.
Why is the increase in truck weights inevitable? Are not there enough other road users to stop it? Are not there locations where congestion is a problem now and would get worse if freight were diverted from rail to road? Isn't this one case where the entire rail industry and all its friends can make common cause with the average American car driver?
Start the campaigne now!
Crumbling roads are a handy pretext to raise taxes. So there is no incentive to make them last long. Nothing speaks to a driver like a pothole.
BaltACDLowest bidders don't build with 3 foot thick concrete.
Therein lies the problem. If you're going to allow mega-trucks on your highways you'd better have mega-roadbeds to match.
Lowest bidders? Tell me about it! When we moved here in 1987 there was a stretch of highway recently built that was a magnificent road, but ten years later it looked like it had been worked over by heavy artillery!
The roadbed and surface combined on present-day autobahns is 27 inches thick.
I've driven most of the German autobahn system at one time or another over the past couple of decades, and I can tell you that parts of the system are in pretty rough shape. I'm not sure that's entirely attributable to trucks, but I would imagine that plays a role.
PsychotI've driven most of the German autobahn system at one time or another over the past couple of decades, and I can tell you that parts of the system are in pretty rough shape. I'm not sure that's entirely attributable to trucks, but I would imagine that plays a role.
Dang! If that's the case the Germans sure ain't makin' concrete like they used to! It took direct gunfire from eight and fourteen inch naval guns to knock out some of those Normandy bunkers, and the flak towers built in some German cities during WW2 were so tough they never tried to demolish them in the post-war era, it was easier just to leave them standing.
The Luftministerium building in Berlin was so strong Allied bombs bounced off it! It's still in use today by the German government, although not as an air ministry.
And speaking of flies hovering over freeways, you know how you spot a happy motorcyclist?
He's the one with bugs in his teeth!
Some entity (I think the University of MD, but it's been too many years to be sure) did a study years ago that said one semi did as much damage to a road as 6000 automobiles. Find a road with a lot of truck traffic, and unless it was recently repaved it will be VERY rough. And they want to raise truck weight limits? Not if I have anything to say about it.
The cost of road pavement such as asphalt cement aka liquid asphalt portland cement labor and other items used in highway construction has more than doubled with asphalt going up almost 10Xs since the last time the Federal Government raised the highway fuel tax in the 90's. Back then you could get liquid asphalt for about 29 dollars a ton now it is going for about 245 dollars a ton for the liquid portion of it. Labor has gone up also in 1992 a truck hauling asphalt was paid around 70 bucks an hour for the truck total. Now they are getting almost 300 bucks an hour for the truck total. Let alone the labor of the contractor worker. Yet the fuel taxes have not increased at all at the Federal Level. Yes some states have increased it to try and do something about the shortage for highway repairs but at the Federal Level nothing ever gets done. Instead they are more worried about I swear it seems wheter or not at least right now if removing the Founding Fathers is needed from our history. My boss has flat out said he has NO problem seeing the Federal Fuel tax raised by at least 30 cents a gallon as long as all money collected from it is USED ONLY FOR HIGHWAY construction along with a redo of how highway construction contracts are issued. Instead of the cheapest bid wins how about requiring these freaking contractors stand behind their work for at least 10 years.
Shadow the Cats ownerInstead of the cheapest bid wins how about requiring these freaking contractors stand behind their work for at least 10 years.
Years ago I read that the Italians dealt with that issue by throwing out the high bid (clearly looking for a gravy train) and the low bid (clearly gonna cheap it out), averaging the rest and selecting the bid closest to that average.
Sounds reasonable to me...
All Concrete is not the same. Type of cement and how much moisture removed out of cement in the kiln. Storage of cement to prevent moisture getting into cement. Aggretage needs a certain strength. Granite usually the best but there are many grades of granite. Limestone is mostly now a no - no. Then the smaller the size of the agreate the more cement for a given strength. The less the amont of water the better.
Then you have subgrade to worry about. Compaction of the subgrade important and prevention of future voids under the concrete very important as concrete not good in tension but great in compression.
A new way to mitigate the problem of future voids is to put down a layer of asphalt before pouring concrete. Asphalt is classified as a super cooled liquid that will slowly flow into any subgrade voids That keeps pavement above lying on a more even subgrade. Newark airport (EWR) laid asphalt under concrete for a runway extension. No breakup of the extensions last time there. They have slowly replaced original runway by matching with the extensions as an old section goes bad. Note: EWR is built on a previous sandy type soil. Note depth of concrete also important but needs type of concrete to be determined.
Even construction engineers make mistakes. The flyover TriRail bridge over the New River was discovered by CSX to have too much fly ash in the concrete. Delayed finish of bridge for over a year This poster is no concrete engineer. Need to ask Mudchicken about his many screw ups he observed. Here is a link for all you want to know with a mind boggling overload about concrete,
https://www.aboutcivil.org/types-of-concrete.html#:~:text=Types%20of%20Concrete%20and%20their%20Characteristics%201%20High,Pervious%20concrete.%20...%207%20Roller%20compacted%20concrete.%20
Euclid Crumbling roads are a handy pretext to raise taxes. So there is no incentive to make them last long. Nothing speaks to a driver like a pothole.
And yet the U.S. federal gas tax has not been raised since the 1990s. Not even to account for inflation, which of course in reality has resulted in a loss of revenue for the highway trust fund.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Flintlock76 Psychot I've driven most of the German autobahn system at one time or another over the past couple of decades, and I can tell you that parts of the system are in pretty rough shape. I'm not sure that's entirely attributable to trucks, but I would imagine that plays a role. Dang! If that's the case the Germans sure ain't makin' concrete like they used to! It took direct gunfire from eight and fourteen inch naval guns to knock out some of those Normandy bunkers, and the flak towers built in some German cities during WW2 were so tough they never tried to demolish them in the post-war era, it was easier just to leave them standing. The Luftministerium building in Berlin was so strong Allied bombs bounced off it! It's still in use today by the German government, although not as an air ministry. And speaking of flies hovering over freeways, you know how you spot a happy motorcyclist? He's the one with bugs in his teeth!
Psychot I've driven most of the German autobahn system at one time or another over the past couple of decades, and I can tell you that parts of the system are in pretty rough shape. I'm not sure that's entirely attributable to trucks, but I would imagine that plays a role.
Yeah, when I was stationed in Berlin with the USAF in the late 80's, my barracks and support facilities were at Tempelhof Central Airport. That structure is so thick and well-constructed that I can't imagine trying to take it down. They truly built things differently back in those days.
tree68 Shadow the Cats owner Instead of the cheapest bid wins how about requiring these freaking contractors stand behind their work for at least 10 years. Years ago I read that the Italians dealt with that issue by throwing out the high bid (clearly looking for a gravy train) and the low bid (clearly gonna cheap it out), averaging the rest and selecting the bid closest to that average. Sounds reasonable to me...
Shadow the Cats owner Instead of the cheapest bid wins how about requiring these freaking contractors stand behind their work for at least 10 years.
I love Italy and its people and that idea seems logical... but I can't help thinking that we're in deep trouble if we emulate Italy on anything related to infrastructure or finances...
PsychotI love Italy and its people and that idea seems logical... but I can't help thinking that we're in deep trouble if we emulate Italy on anything related to infrastructure or finances...
Uh, yeah, I'm half-Italian myself and I have to agree with you, considering the bridge collapses they've had in the past few years. They're sure not building them like the Romans used to.
Just remember the difference between European heaven and European hell...
... although there are a couple of comparatively recent engineers of Italian extraction who were anything but incompetent, Ferrari and Bugatti being two fairly familiar ones. I would also include Bartini in there although some may think him too reminiscent of Victor Pirolo. I don't think Colani is in that league...
OvermodJust remember the difference between European heaven and European hell... ... although there are a couple of comparatively recent engineers of Italian extraction who were anything but incompetent, Ferrari and Bugatti being two fairly familiar ones. I would also include Bartini in there although some may think him too reminiscent of Victor Pirolo.
... although there are a couple of comparatively recent engineers of Italian extraction who were anything but incompetent, Ferrari and Bugatti being two fairly familiar ones. I would also include Bartini in there although some may think him too reminiscent of Victor Pirolo.
Ferrari in the 21st Century of racing has only shined when its leaders were a Britian, a Frenchman and a German - Ross Brawn, J Todt and Michael Schumacher - other than the times those three were 'in the drivers seat' Ferrari has acted as an Italian fire drill.
I was referring strictly to il Commendatore as an engineer, and the early work in the '40s, for example the design of some of the early V12s. Ferrari as a 'brand' is, as you say, the beneficiary of certain other Euro talents... just as, arguably, the vicissitudes of the resurrected Bugatti company are in less satisfactory ways.
Trucks pay less in highway (fuel and toll) taxes than the damage they cause now. Why would anyone with a brain permit heavier trucks that can do more damage per trip without "catching them up" with respect to paying for the damage caused?
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