On my recent Texas Eagle trip saw CN installing remote control derail machines on client sidings in the Southern Chicago city limits. They still had the old manual derail in place further up the siding so it looks like they are testing these. They look brand new, pretty cool. Looks somewhat similar to an old derail except it has a large switch machine motor attached to it and a large hinge. When derail is off the hinge moves the derail part to rest upside down in the middle of the track (where I presume it is out of the way). Guessing crews or computers will operate these automated contraptions via the locomotive cab to gain entry to a client's siding via key sequence on radio? Not sure how the remote control works yet or what would prevent it from being accidently activated while a train was passing over. Interesting innovation though.
If it is on a client industry track, that would be private property,then the industry ppl would have control of the device. I have seen such tracks equipped w/two hand throw devices w/one of them locked by the industry which can only be operated by them and not the rr.
Ersatz blue flag protection. Probably a Western Cullen Hayes (WCH) De-Lectric set up. I've seen railroads use them to protect blue-flag zones. Shortlines to protect themselves from Class 1's using their track as a set-out during switching and more commonly to keep switch crews from crashing doors and arriving un-announced.
Link to WCH catalog page on the Delectric Derail:
http://www.wch.com/pdf/catalog/delectric.pdf
Note that this is a sliding type, not one that flips over as described in the Original Post.
My thought is this is additional protection for the main line against unauthorized incursions. That's one event PTC can't protect against - a car getting loose and rolling out onto the main line too close in front of a train that has a clear signal. The derail could be interlocked into the PTC system the same as a hand-operated switch. A railroad would feel a lot better with that than just an uncontrolled, unmonitored hand-thrown derail operated by the industry (think of MC's "agri-dummies").
Both he and I agree that no low speed on-top-of-rail type derail is positive protection. We've all seen and heard stories about cars that rolled over the tops of them and kept on going, or maybe only 1 wheelset derailed and just slowed it down a little. Far better is a single or double switchpoint derail. Since the railroad is already going to the trouble of installing a power device and interlocking it, may as well go all the way and upgrade to one of those instead.
- PDN.
Quoting Paul North "Both he and I agree that no low speed on-top-of-rail type derail is positive protection. " Quite true; I have seen a car go over one of those derails and keep going. It was especially interesting because the derail belonged to a road other than that which was moving the car. As it was, the local section foreman for the owning road lived right there, was at home, and was able to unlock the derail so the car could be moved back to the right place (the handbrake on the car did not work quickly, even though a brakeman was winding the wheel frantically).
Johnny
CMStPnPOn my recent Texas Eagle trip saw CN installing remote control derail machines on client sidings in the Southern Chicago city limits. They still had the old manual derail in place further up the siding
Was the powered one closer to the switch?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
mudchickenmore commonly to keep switch crews from crashing doors and arriving un-announced.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
"Squiggly"? You must be posting from an iPhone...
Reminds me amusingly of an effect when I was in high school ... two friends and I acquired quite a reputation for visiting people just in time to be invited in for food. One night we very carefully waited until nearly 9:00 to make our 'raid', precisely to obliterate any chance of being accused of freeloading -- only to be met at the door with incredulity and how did you know??? ... we caught them just sitting down to a late dinner...
Murphy Siding mudchicken more commonly to keep switch crews from crashing doors and arriving un-announced.
mudchicken more commonly to keep switch crews from crashing doors and arriving un-announced.
Story time:
engineer telling me he had a newer conductor. They were spotting cars on stub-ended tracks. First track - they're backing up and THUD. Second track - THUD.
Finally engineer calls the conductor up to the cab: "are you hitting those bunping blocks?" Conductor replied "isn't that what they're for?" Engineer screams: "NO!"
I guess he heard the term "bumping block" and figured...
But most were pretty strong. We had an old pre-85 conductor that was always rushing around. He tested every bumping block, gate, and wheel chock in the tri-county area.
Guys like that are what led to the now-standard plan of a "pile of dirt" at the end of a track where there's nothing safety-critical beyond it. A lot easier to pull the car back off the dirt pile and rerail it than a mangled bumper and pulled-apart track, and no damages in the several thousands of dollars for someone to have to report and pay.
"Bumping posts" come in several flavors (strengths). In the Hayes line, in order of increasing strength they are: WK, WD, WG, and WA. As I recall the WG had an option for passenger cars to avoid damaging the hoses &etc. All but the WK could be installed with additional center "hold-down" rails (good use for a heavy-weight scrap rail), and all could be fitted with a spring-cushioned head.
One trick is to use full-length rails from the bumper coming out, then cut in a half-rail to set-up the staggered rail joint pattern. That way, for a car impacting the bumper, the full-length rails to which the bumper is attached will have the full weight of one truck of the car on them to resist motion. If only a half rail is attached to the bumper, that joint will often break when the bumper is impacted, as there may not be any weight from the truck on it - the bumper uses up 10+ ft. of the rail's length.
Out on the old Pennsy, there were many pipe-connected derails. When you threw the main switch, a big pipe (rod) connected the switch to the derail. Some just allowed the dearil to unlock so it could be thrown manually, while others the pipe actually threw the derail itself. So you would open the switch and the derail would plop open (plop being the technical term). Wonder if these electric derails are the successor to that?
Most of the pipe-connected derails we have were taken out with PTC. Now you have to throw each individually, but they are still wired together, so there's a sequence to gain access to the customer so you can defeat the boss and see if the princess is in that castle.
"Let down the drawbridge and open the gate!" (We haven't mentioned that last item here yet . . . ).
Question would be if these all served a single industry, like a refinery -or- did placement come after an incident with "Stubby", the fumble-fingered switchman who couldn't walk & chew gum at the same time?
(I'd still vote for an alligator (switch point derail) and a high star stand over a hop-toad every time to ensure that gravity works.)
Are these derails uni-directional or bi-directional? Are they to protect access to the main or the siding or both?
I think the majority of derail applications are intended to protect the mainline from equipment inadvertently coming off of a siding, but I am sure there are cases where it is designed to work the other way around.
Zug, there was a local delivery driver for a truck line who always announced his arrival at the plant where I worked by letting the building stop him as he backed up. No matter where I was in the plant, I could always tell, from the sound of the bump, when he arrived. I considered it a wonder that the whole building had not moved several feet from its original location. Despite his stopping practice, he was a good guy.
adkrr64I think the majority of derail applications are intended to protect the mainline from equipment inadvertently coming off of a siding, but I am sure there are cases where it is designed to work the other way around.
Some of our main track derails are wired into the signal system, some aren't. Our hand throw switches/derails aren't individually integrated into PTC, only the signal system. If you are past the last governing signal and someone opens a switch, PTC won't know it. (Remember the Stanwood incident that happened almost a year ago. http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/p/276383/3155572.aspx#3155572)
Most of those over the top of the rail derails are one way. You can run over them and they usually won't derail something. Will make a big "clunk" so I've been told.
There was an incident many years ago when I was still a conductor. I was working the extra board and got a call to dog catch the west end wayfreight. I was told we were only going out a couple of stations (about 20 miles) and bringing it back to town. (The engineer, an east pool engineer that hadn't been west in 10 years - and shouldn't have taken the call, was told we were only going out about 10 miles and bringing it back in. By the same caller.) Once at work we found out the wayfreight had been dumping ballast all day and hadn't even started their local work. They were still outbound to the turning point. We caught up to them at a station where they had just set out their empty ballast hoppers. The conductor had signalled the engineer to back up to pick him up. No problem. They started moving forward when after a few car lengths they went into emergency.
It seems after setting out the hoppers, that were at the end of the train, the wayfreight pulled out. The conductor replaced the derail, but forgot the switch to the side track. When they shoved back to pick up the conductor, about 4 cars went into the side track over the derail without derailing. When they started pulling, they started pulling those 4 cars over the derail. I think it was the first two or maybe three derailed before one turned over enough to break the train line and place them in emergency. That's when we showed up.
I went from dog catching to becoming a switch tender at the crossover they were clear of, so they could single track around the mess. They had been dumping ballast at a nearby derailment location. Hulcher still had their equipment there, cleaning up cars still on the right of way. They were able to clear up the wayfreight's mess in about 12 hours.
Jeff
zugmann Out on the old Pennsy, there were many pipe-connected derails. When you threw the main switch, a big pipe (rod) connected the switch to the derail. Some just allowed the dearil to unlock so it could be thrown manually, while others the pipe actually threw the derail itself. So you would open the switch and the derail would plop open (plop being the technical term). Wonder if these electric derails are the successor to that? Most of the pipe-connected derails we have were taken out with PTC. Now you have to throw each individually, but they are still wired together, so there's a sequence to gain access to the customer so you can defeat the boss and see if the princess is in that castle.
A description of those is still found in our G.O.I, but I've never seen one in person. Just like the elusive electric lock switch, though I understand they are also more common south of the 49th.
DTMF-operated power derails and switches have been common for the last 20+ years at yard entrances, and in recent years CN has been installing more and more of them at large customer sites. Makes departing way quicker, as the Conductor does not have to stay behind and manually line the derail and switch back behind the train. Most of these locations are in CTC territory, with the customer spur being a controlled location (Canadianese for "control point"), but they are now showing up in OCS (dark) territory as well. Some sidings in non-CTC territory are also getting DTMF switches now.
Most of CN's power derails are integrated with the signal system, and must be operated in the following sequence:
1. Dispatcher requests signal.
2. Crew tones derail.
3. Signal changes from 'Stop' to a permissive indication, and the derail comes off.
If the Dispatcher has not requested a signal or if the next block is not clear, the crew can tone the derail all they want and nothing will happen.
This incident caused the implementation of power derails at yard entrances all over the place, for obvious reasons:
https://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/1996/r96c0172/r96c0172.html
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
zugmannMost of the pipe-connected derails...
If you wander around Big Moose station in the wilds of the Adirondacks, you'll find plenty of pipe system appurtenances (bell cranks, etc), all long since out of service.
Big Moose is at the top of a five mile long 1.1% hill, often a helper district. There was a wye there to turn the helpers, and at least three tracks across the front of the station.
There was no tower there - I'm pretty sure it was a matter of connecting switches and derails so as to lessen the work of the crews.
Would have loved to see it "back in the day."
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
zugmannWas the powered one closer to the switch?
Yes it was and I am not sure if that is the Chicago to St. Louis high speed line at that point or just the CN connection to it because we could see Chicago's skyline and we were within Chicago city limits. The Derail was different than the WC pictured above, was much larger and more substantial and had a motorized switch unit powering it. They had a manual derail as well about 50 to 75 feet down the siding from the mechanical one. The mechanical derail was closest to the mainline switch.
Although the tower is long gone, a fair amount of the pipes and related items can still be seen at Forest Hill Tower (CSX over NS and BRC, PRR abandoned).
Another instance where derails are used to provide positive protection for a side track is where the track is commonly 'blue-flagged' because of personnel working on or under the equipment. Typical examples are car and locomotive repair shops. An uncontrolled car (and once in a while a locomotive) doesn't know that it's supposed to stop at a blue flag, and while I doubt if anyone would ever run past a blue flag intentionally, it could happen accidentally. If either of those would happen, the resulting risk of serious injury or death is so high that it's better to provide the much higher degree of protection from a derail.
There are also 'portable' derails that are placed in a temporary location - see http://www.wch.com/lpts.htm The best examples of those are where MOW equipment is tied up on a siding (shown in the photo on that webpage). I've seen them used for both purposes - to prevent accidental movement (think vandalism) of the MOW equipment onto the main, and also to prevent someone (who "didn't get the memo" or forgot about it) from shoving a cut of cars into the track now temporarily occupied by MOW equipment, as shown in that photo.
Links to webpages of Hayes catalog on:
Sliding derails: http://www.wch.com/pdf/catalog/slidingdrl.pdf
Hinged derails: http://www.wch.com/pdf/catalog/hingedrls.pdf
There's also a handbook for installing and maintaining them: http://www.wch.com/pdf/wchdrlhndbk.pdf
I've seen portable derails and red flags put up in the yard when they find a broken rail or other track damage and don't take the entire track out of service. Now I can see MOW putting up the derails when they are going to actually work at the site, but they seem to be in place for days or weeks at a time. I mean, I can see the flags being placed but the derails? Seems like if they overran the flag the track defects would take care of the derailing part.
Blue flag rules and how they were applied.
M/W, for the most part, is discouraged from applying blue flag protection. (Love to know the history of why, but....) I assume the choice in the field is largely a people protection issue or what would be the worst outcome.(defect or derail)....and portable derails don't grow on trees (hardly a common thing out there) and section forces are fewer too (takes longer address problems)
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