Watched a couple of east and westbound stackers pass, and got to wondering: Is there going to be a return to the old practice of car side advertising? BILLBOARDS on Cars?
Maybe YES/Maybe NO? Post WWI, and Post WWII, there were minor upticks in the presence of billboarding on rail cars; Primarily, it seemed to be on the leased or privately owned reefer fleets.
* "...The Association of American Railroads Rule 84, which bans billboards on railroad cars. The rule came about because of logistics. For example, companies and union workers hated it when a car with a Swift & Co. ad would show up at an Armour meat-packing plant for loading. The AAR created Rule 84 to prevent customers from getting upset because of the ads on the cars..." *
This is a rule, and not a law; but it sure shut down a problem that inflamed the trucker, unions and coprorate types that did not like it(?).
My point is that as the presence of OTR Trailers, [and their various painted identity markings, and also a more recent presence of much more corporate identity graqphics appearing on their containers [ both reefer types, and dry cans.]
When the Billboard cars were rolling, way back when Watching a train pass a crossing was an adventure. The advertising on cars was eye-catching, and caught the attention of those watching it go past.
Amazon has added graphics to their 'cans', Prime, with FFE, as well, have added some graphics. Graphics on trailers, and containers, as well as bright colored painted schemes seems to be growing trend?
And checking back in the TRAINSNewswire [May 15,2007]
"The next big thing - billboards on rail cars?
see article linked@ https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2007/05/the-next-big-thing---billboards-on-rail-cars
The article cast a sort of negative perspective on the presence of car side advertising, and gave several reasons why it was against it.
FTA:"...For rail photographers, feelings over the ads are mixed. On the one hand they would add color to freight train consists. But others don't care for the ads. One said, "If this doesn't give you a reason to put your camera away and never take another picture of a train, I don't know what will."..."
Personally, I kinda like it, but then I wasw growing up; while I had model railroad layouts and models; I bought, and had many cars that had the billboard ads, even the various railroads used plain,but large graphics for their slogans and logos. But then, I realized that all of that predated 'tagging'...
Sam, I'd love to see the billboard cars come back, but you bring up a pretty good point about "taggers." Taggers seem to find those big white Tropicana cars an irresistable "canvas" for their "art," to give one example.
As far as I know the rule against billboard cars doesn't apply as long as the cars don't leave home rails, hence the "Tropicana Train" which runs on CSX exclusively from Florida to New Jersey.
By the way, the freight trains I run on my O gauge layout are pretty much exclusively classic billboard cars. They just look so cool!
You can't bring back something that never existed. A lot of people don't understand that railroads NEVER sold 'advertising space' on freight cars. What they did do, starting in the 1800s, do was lease cars to private companies, who then decorated the cars with their company name and perhaps information on their brand names and products. Some early lease cars would have the railroad name on one side, and the private company's name on the other. This may be where the confusion comes from re 'advertising' on railroad cars. (Early in the 20th century, railroads were forced to separate their refrigerator leasing operations to third party companies, due to federal anti-trust laws and regulations.)
Over time, the lettering got very large and colorful, and - as noted earlier - company A would refuse a reefer lettered for competitor B . This meant cars often had to be returned to the leasing company empty, meaning the railroad got less money than they would have back hauling a loaded car.
The (1937-38 IIRC) rule change said lettering on a car couldn't be larger than I think 16" or 18", unless the owner / leasing co. agreed to pay the 'loaded' rate both ways. That meant virtually all 'billboard' reefers were repainted by about 1940.
Railroad-owned cars weren't included in this, so railroads began putting large slogans and lettering on their cars about that time: "Way of the Zephyrs", "Southern Serves the South", etc.
wjstixRailroad-owned cars weren't included in this, so railroads began putting large slogans and lettering on their cars about that time: "Way of the Zephyrs", "Southern Serves the South", etc.
Can't forget UP's map cars.
Much as I'd love to see some flashier graphics on the cars, I suspect we're going to be stuck with oxide red and reporting marks any more (OK, CSX paints their boxcars blue...)
And the occasional service mark like [CSX] and CN's lazy three.
The bean counters would rather see the $ go to the bottom line than fancy paint.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68Much as I'd love to see some flashier graphics on the cars, I suspect we're going to be stuck with oxide red and reporting marks any more
There were some smaller outfits who had official liveries that were quasi graffiti...one comes to mind that I can't remember the name, but on their boxcars they painted their name along with a palm tree, a moon, and a lake if I recall properly.
Very similar in nature to "Herby"... but without the man
Flintlock76 Sam, I'd love to see the billboard cars come back, but you bring up a pretty good point about "taggers." Taggers seem to find those big white Tropicana cars an irresistable "canvas" for their "art," to give one example. As far as I know the rule against billboard cars doesn't apply as long as the cars don't leave home rails, hence the "Tropicana Train" which runs on CSX exclusively from Florida to New Jersey. By the way, the freight trains I run on my O gauge layout are pretty much exclusively classic billboard cars. They just look so cool!
Flintlock76 As far as I know the rule against billboard cars doesn't apply as long as the cars don't leave home rails, hence the "Tropicana Train" which runs on CSX exclusively from Florida to New Jersey.
Those cars are owned/leased/exclusively assigned to Tropicana. The rule doesn't apply.
Imagine though that CSX provided cars to Tropicana for loading that have MinuteMaid graphics all over them. That's kinda the point of the rule.
There is absolutely no rule that prevent the car's owner/lessee from applying their own logos and graphics all over the car. Amazon's containers cited above are nothing special. They own/lease them. That's not the same thing as the "billboard advertising" rule.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
cv_acr Tropicana.
Russell
samfp1943Wayne: I know the subject of 'tagging' is normally verboten on these Forums. So Hopefully, we can dance that fine line?
Sam, as long as the only mention of tagging on the Forum is condemnation of the same I don't think we'll get in any trouble. Certainly no-one here is going to praise it!
csxns cv_acr Tropicana. They will be next to stop using rail.
They will be next to stop using rail.
Maybe, but I doubt it. The times I've seen Tropicana trains they were typically 55 to 65 cars long! That's a lot of juice! Plus, that's up to 65 less trucks on the road several times a week, coming and going. That train doesn't have to worry about the vagaries of traffic on the interstates either.
Flintlock76 csxns cv_acr Tropicana. They will be next to stop using rail. Maybe, but I doubt it. The times I've seen Tropicana trains they were typically 55 to 65 cars long! That's a lot of juice! Plus, that's up to 65 less trucks on the road several times a week, coming and going. That train doesn't have to worry about the vagaries of traffic on the interstates either.
The Juice Train uses Tropicana owned (or Leased) cars. CSX does have a small fleet of a smiliar kind of car to be used to supplement when not enough TPIX cars are available.
In addition to the Trpoicana's Northern New Jersey distribution center (the destination of the original Juice Train) they have opened DC's near Cincinnati and in City of Industry, CA. The NJ DC still gets the bulk of the product.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Flintlock76 that's up to 65 less trucks on the road
csxns Flintlock76 that's up to 65 less trucks on the road Look at what UP just did to Cold Connect UP just put more trucks on the Interstate.
Look at what UP just did to Cold Connect UP just put more trucks on the Interstate.
Well, shame on "Uncle Pete" for chasing away business.
By the way, and I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but if anyone want to pursue a study of billboard box cars let me recommend a super book.
It's call "Billboard Refrigerator Cars," and I'd have to call it a definative work on the subject. Published by Signature Press in 2008 and 220 pages jam-packed with photographs it's just about everything you'd want to know about billboard cars. I own one myself, and I'm glad I got it!
http://www.signaturepress.com Not cheap at $60, but worth it if you're into the subject, trust me!
cv_acrThere is absolutely no rule that prevent the car's owner/lessee from applying their own logos and graphics all over the car. Amazon's containers cited above are nothing special. They own/lease them. That's not the same thing as the "billboard advertising" rule.
Well, and of course, there never was "billboard advertising" in the sense of railroads selling/leasing advertising space on cars. As you say, if a company bought or leased a car, they could decorate it however they wanted. However, after about 1940, if the lettering with the company name and product references etc. was over a certain size, they had to agree pay the railroad to move the car to it's destination and back at essentially the "full car" rate, even if it returned empty. It's a bit (actually a lot) more involved than that, but basically that's the gist of it. The cars with large lettering were never technically "banned", they just became uneconomical to operate in most cases.
They're not exactly the same situation. UP owned those reefers and discontinued a service they offered. Tropicana (well, Pepsi) owns their equipment and they're moving over the road like any other shipper having a car moved.
samfp1943... * "...The Association of American Railroads Rule 84, which bans billboards on railroad cars. The rule came about because of logistics. For example, companies and union workers hated it when a car with a Swift & Co. ad would show up at an Armour meat-packing plant for loading. The AAR created Rule 84 to prevent customers from getting upset because of the ads on the cars..." * This is a rule, and not a law; but it sure shut down a problem that inflamed the trucker, unions and coprorate types that did not like it(?).
Railroads could lease out the sides as a source of additional revenue. Imagine, your name and logo rolling slowly through a grade crossing with lots of drivers stuck behind the gates, stuck watching.
rrnut282 samfp1943 ... * "...The Association of American Railroads Rule 84, which bans billboards on railroad cars. The rule came about because of logistics. For example, companies and union workers hated it when a car with a Swift & Co. ad would show up at an Armour meat-packing plant for loading. The AAR created Rule 84 to prevent customers from getting upset because of the ads on the cars..." * This is a rule, and not a law; but it sure shut down a problem that inflamed the trucker, unions and coprorate types that did not like it(?). They need to put on their big-boy pants and get back to work. That is really petty. Do they own the car, then they don't have any say about what it looks like on the outside. Railroads could lease out the sides as a source of additional revenue. Imagine, your name and logo rolling slowly through a grade crossing with lots of drivers stuck behind the gates, stuck watching.
samfp1943 ... * "...The Association of American Railroads Rule 84, which bans billboards on railroad cars. The rule came about because of logistics. For example, companies and union workers hated it when a car with a Swift & Co. ad would show up at an Armour meat-packing plant for loading. The AAR created Rule 84 to prevent customers from getting upset because of the ads on the cars..." * This is a rule, and not a law; but it sure shut down a problem that inflamed the trucker, unions and coprorate types that did not like it(?).
They need to put on their big-boy pants and get back to work. That is really petty. Do they own the car, then they don't have any say about what it looks like on the outside.
Feature that in the future pro sports will have corporate logos on all the uniforms - for a sponsor fee. It has already happened on the teams practice unis - the unis they frequently wear to meetings with the media. Pro teams in other countries are alread displaying the logos of their corporate sponsors.
Watched an interview presentation on TV with a couple of NASCAR drivers.. Their special driving clothing was covered by various logos. Almost to the point of being 'walkig buillboards'
I know that for years the various advertisers (Sponsors) have paid for their inclusion on the the(dirver's caps), racecar bodies;now it appears that they have carried that over, more than previously, to their clothing. For some reason in this particular interview the sponsor's logos really stood out.
I'd bet that BaltACD can tell us, chapter and verse, about sponsor logos on uniforms and his race cars!
samfp1943 I'd bet that BaltACD can tell us, chapter and verse, about sponsor logos on uniforms and his race cars!
memyselfandi motortoyz is sole sponsor, wrench, financier and driver of my race car. The sanctioning body requires certain stickers to be on car and driver's suit. Cotingency 'sponsors' get their stickers on the car in as much as if I win or finish in a podium position those sponsors will 'pay' me in the form of product or money for having their sticker on the car. Beyond that I am a one man band.
Throughout the year having the tire supplier's logo on the car, with a win when 3 or more cars compete in the class will pay 2 tires. If there are 5 or more cars in the cars the 2nd place finisher gets paid 1 tire. At the National Championship Runoffs more companies enter the fray with contingency sponsorship.
Wrapping locomotives in advertising is common in Europe, and Amtrak did it past holiday for Coca-Cola (also switching to Coke products on Amtrak trains). An who would be more likely to do that here than Berkshire-Hatahaway owned BNSF (Geico, Duracell, Dairy Queen, etc)
Metra wrapped some of its bi-levels a few years back to advertise an international football tournament at Soldier Field featuring top European clubs. CTA also wraps some rapid transit cars with ads.
The original billboard advertising on reefers was ruled an illegal rebate by the ICC. After 1937 such cars couldn't be accepted in interchange.
https://www.signaturepress.com/kaminski/BLBD.html
Car owners/lessors could have their name and company logo on their cars, but couldn't advertise specific products.
https://books.google.com/books?id=yFltDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=interstate+commerce+commission+billboard+refrigerator+car+advertising+ruled+illegal+rebate&source=bl&ots=xLOKrmQNm0&sig=ACfU3U0-uamASoy5fIv5Qsu5aT1iPeUQAw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjK15Lw4LvpAhVNA6wKHazJDSoQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=interstate%20commerce%20commission%20billboard%20refrigerator%20car%20advertising%20ruled%20illegal%20rebate&f=false
Jeff
jeffhergertThe original billboard advertising on reefers was ruled an illegal rebate by the ICC. After 1937 such cars couldn't be accepted in interchange. https://www.signaturepress.com/kaminski/BLBD.html
Yep, that's the one I was talkin' about! And what a colorful time it was!
azrailWrapping locomotives in advertising is common in Europe, and Amtrak did it past holiday for Coca-Cola (also switching to Coke products on Amtrak trains). An who would be more likely to do that here than Berkshire-Hatahaway owned BNSF (Geico, Duracell, Dairy Queen, etc)
Warren Buffet is "hands off" in regards to running of the day to day business operations of the businesses his company owns or aquires. Very rare for him to step in and replace an Executive of an acquired company. He does have a say on new replacement Executives since he owns the vast majority or all the stock in a good portion of his companies.........not sure if he exercises that power a lot or just rubber stamps what the board goes with. So I don't see him getting involved in Locomotive or Rolling Stock wraps of any kind.
Since the ICC and their non cognitive reasoning no longer exists, maybe it is time to revisit the issue. Add a rule, if shipper refuses car over paint job, they pay the empty move. Problem (mostly) solved.
rrnut282 Since the ICC and their non cognitive reasoning no longer exists, maybe it is time to revisit the issue. Add a rule, if shipper refuses car over paint job, they pay the empty move. Problem (mostly) solved.
On the other hand, who's going to pay for advertising on a medium the many people don't even know exists any more? If someone is stopped at a crossing, they've got their nose buried in a phone...
tree68 rrnut282 Since the ICC and their non cognitive reasoning no longer exists, maybe it is time to revisit the issue. Add a rule, if shipper refuses car over paint job, they pay the empty move. Problem (mostly) solved. On the other hand, who's going to pay for advertising on a medium the many people don't even know exists any more? If someone is stopped at a crossing, they've got their nose buried in a phone...
And angry at having to wait for the stupid train to get out of the way... I don't think it would be good use of the advertising dollar to put your brand name on an agrivation. "WHAT? BRAND X... I'll never buy their product!"
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Graphics salesman here, primarily to the trucking industry but I have also had good success to the rail industry, primarily as a supplier to an OEM of tank cars.
The billboards will probably never return to box cars, covered hoppers, etc. Too much information on the cars in specific locations such as reporting marks and numbers, LD/LT Weights, etc. There is a large amount of graphics already on the cars.
The private fleets recognize the value of marketing their products (primarily consumer goods, such as food, furniture, etc) while the trucking industry branding is fairly basic with logo and a basic message. However, more and more trucking companies are using their fleets as a recruiting tool for drivers. It is a realitively cost effective channel.
Everything is on "hold" right now as we are dealing with this mess.
Ed
Someone mentioned the basic problem: The taggers would likely quickly ruin any advertising applied to the side of frt cars.
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