Idea

[bnsfkline]

With this recent incident with the police on a Metra Platform, it really pissed me off. Here in St. Louis, the only place were you CANT photograph trains is near Oil Refineries, and private property. However, here is my my proposition. I propose a "Railfan Lisence" This lisence (ecxuse my spelling) will be able to clarify with one look at a card that the person means no harm to the railroad or the nation. For a simple fee of like $5.00, a Railfan ID card could make incedents like the one in Chicago a thing of the past. On the card, a Photo of yourself, Your name, Address, Date of Birth, Height, and everything else that would be on a drivers lisence, and you would be registered in an international database. I hope that everyone here on this forum would like to see things become easier again. How many of you would register for a railfan lisence. BTW, the lisence would entitle you to photograph trains from Public Property ONLY, and not be harrased by law enforcement....

BTW, I have taken photos of trains infront of St. Louis City Police (a Number of times) (The strictest in the area) and they didn't care, they just told me to stay off the tracks and not to tresspass.

Chicago, you should be ASHAMED of yourself, detaining an inicent railfan to be registered as a "Potential Terrorist.

[Anonymous]

I believe New Jersey Transit offers a license like that, and I don't think it costs any money.

[bnsfkline]

seeing as how I was trying to help everyone in our hobby, it seems like that everybody does not care about police harrasing our comrades. I was giving a solution to our problems, but it seems that no one gives a hoot. Reminde me not to give anymore solutions.

[Anonymous]

wouldn't work I hate to say it i love the idea, but no.... If you call a railroad to ask if you can wonder around their property, more than likly they will say yes, but the RR police can still kick you off. so basicly a Police officer could say your disturbing the peace (i dunno, trains are loud, so maybe something else...) because SOMEONE OWNS THE LAND no matter if its public or not, its their decision. Like pets or skateboarding on public school property... BANNED!

[Anonymous]

Ill agree with you all the way on that.

[edblysard]

Guys..
Who will issue and enforce this "license"?

The Office of Homeland Security?
Like I want to give those neo-*** anymore information about myself?

Who will pay for the printing and processing fees?
Believe it of not, the processing for the information on a background check is not free.

Who picks up the postage for mailing out the application, pays for the application to be printed, processed and such...

Who gets to decide what the qualifiactions for being issued a license are...
anybody with a warrant, even for simple traffic tickets get the boot?

How do you prove your a rail fan?

Or can anybody get one...which will render having one in the first place pretty much useless.
Just the administration of the "licenses" who be rather costly.

Your options if "bothered" by a cop while on public property..

First, make darn sure what you consider public property is, in fact, public property.

Then, explain, in calm tones and demenor, who you are and what your doing.
Dont not quote "the law" to a cop, unless your a lawyer...
Explain you dont think it is illegal.
Then if the cops insist on you moving on, pack up and get.
You can always find another place to take photos, but its real hard to do so from a jail cell.

If you want to persue it any farther, get the cops name and badge number, then contact their direct supervisor.

Explain the problem, ask for their help.

Do not remind them your taxes pay their salary, they already feel underpaid, (and most are) and probaly will ask for a raise, just before hanging up on you...

If that dosnt get you any joy, contact that police depts internal affairs division, register a complaint, and complain to the local DA..

Note if you do the last two, be prepared to have one really POed cop keeping a eye out for you, but it is a option.

Your best bet is to approach a trainmaster or other offical of whatever railroad you want to take photos of, introduce yourself, explain what you want, and ask them to OK your doing so, in writing.
They are used to fans, most of them will be ok with it, as long as you dont trespass.

Presenting that to most police officers will end any problems, most of the time.
If it dosnt, see the above.[:D]

Keep in mind most cops are not really harrassing you, but are just doing what they feel is their job.

Not all of them know, or care if it is legal or not to be photographing trains, all they know is what they have been told to keep a eye out for...if you fit the profile or in any way look suspicious, they will and should stop you and check.

Also keep in mind most cops dont deal with the average good citizen on a day to day basis, most of the people cops deal with every day are crooks and bad guys...

If they stop you, or approach you, they are most likely already thinking you not a "good guy", they dont often stop or question Joe Citizen for no reason.

Ed

[cpbloom]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Guys..
Who will issue and enforce this "license"?

Who gets to decide what the qualifiactions for being issued a license are...
anybody with a warrant, even for simple traffic tickets get the boot?

How do you prove your a rail fan?

Or can anybody get one...which will render having one in the first place pretty much useless.

Ed

I think these are some good questions in a good post overall, any answers[?]

[jabrown1971]

Could this become something attached to a drivers license, kinda like organ donation? When you renew your license at the BMV, they could ask if you want this notation on your license, if you say yes, they give you a form to fill out and sign, then they put a notation on your drivers license. Here in the great state of Indiana you already need like 5 forms of id to get a drivers license, so filling out a little form would be of no consequence. bnsfkline, I think it is a good idea, and with a few refinements could be a thing to work with. Personally I don't photograph any trains, but I would be willing to get the "license" so that if I wanted too, I would be in compliance.

[Mookie]

I am with Ed. More taxes to get this going and enforce it. Our police force is already overburdened having to check on a 5 year old that won't clean his room or a drunk passed out on the sidewalk (this requires one firetruck, one police car and one ambulance!) Enough. Mind your p's and q's and quit acting suspicious. It is almost as if some people are daring them to ask you what you are doing. We all want freedom in this country, but when someone questions "you" and exactly what you are doing, we get really indignant! How dare they!

You want both freedom and security. One will have to give to have the other. Pick your poison!

I don't want another license or another credit card! And I don't want the expense that will go with both of them!

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFKLINE:
Here in St. Louis, the only place were you CAN'T photograph trains is near Oil Refineries, and private property.

How many times have I seen signs that said "City Property - No Trespassing?" Private public property?

We hashed over a very similar suggestion a while back, with about the same results. "Back in the day" it would probably would have been easy. There would have been little or no suspicion of ne'er-do-wells trying to get a permit or license, so it wouldn't have taken a complete background check (including your complete employment history, three references, and an extended questionaire regarding your interest in railroads) to get one.

And, even if you disregard privacy issues, the bureaucracy involved in the process would be a killer.

A "get out of jail" card would be really nice, but don't wait for yours in the mail. If you get one, be very afraid. Keep your nose clean, call the officer "sir" or "ma'am", and you should be OK.

[FThunder11]

I'd get a license. even though I actually stand on Union Pacific Property. If I'm out on a weekday before 6pm then there are UP employees hangin around they could care less that i am standing there, although it helps that i am a kid, they probably think I'm just some kid who likes trains, so it helps.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brak710101

wouldn't work I hate to say it i love the idea, but no.... If you call a railroad to ask if you can wonder around their property, more than likly they will say yes, but the RR police can still kick you off. so basicly a Police officer could say your disturbing the peace (i dunno, trains are loud, so maybe something else...) because SOMEONE OWNS THE LAND no matter if its public or not, its their decision. Like pets or skateboarding on public school property... BANNED!

maybe its different in the States, but here in Canada, "crown land" is open to the public's use, as long as they cohere to other laws. If your on public land, and you're taking pictures of trains which are on nearby railroad property, then the police can have nothing against you, as I believe that bnsfkline is pointing out. With a "license" of some sort, perhaps administered by the AAR, it would be all the easier to be a railfan.

[tree68]

Let's consider what "rights and privileges" such a card would convey.

1. Trespassing on RR property? Nada
2. Watching trains from (truly) public places? Already legal.
3. Taking pictures of trains from the same public places? Already legal. (NJT duly noted, however)
4. Recognition by law enforcement? Maybe, but you're still getting hassled while they detain you and verify your railfanning license. Hopefully it's good in this state, too.

So you've spent the money and time to obtain a license that gives you exactly the same rights and privileges as the guy standing next to you without one. Aside from bragging rights, what have you accomplished?

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

Let's consider what "rights and privileges" such a card would convey.

1. Trespassing on RR property? Nada
2. Watching trains from (truly) public places? Already legal.
3. Taking pictures of trains from the same public places? Already legal. (NJT duly noted, however)
4. Recognition by law enforcement? Maybe, but you're still getting hassled while they detain you and verify your railfanning license. Hopefully it's good in this state, too.

So you've spent the money and time to obtain a license that gives you exactly the same rights and privileges as the guy standing next to you without one. Aside from bragging rights, what have you accomplished?

Well said....I couldn't have said it better myself. I would not apply for a license for such a thing. Just more bureuracracy. Next, they'll want licenses for plane fans...There used to be a small airport near where I live, where private aircrraft would fly in and out...I eventually took flying lessons there when I got older. On a nice Sunday, my parents and I would go up, and watch from the parking lot, the planes taking off and landing. and going around the pattern....these were 4 seaters, not your Commercial Aircraft. If someone compelled me to get a license to avoid scrutiny just for enjoying watching planes, I would think the same of it as getting a license to watch trains. A waste of my time. I also like to sit by the river during the Summer and watch and film the pleasure boats running up and down. Should I need a license for that? Perhaps someone thinks I am filming them because I want to use a boat for no good...load it with explosives..etc.....But if I have a license, a cop can check it and put me in his data base........No thanks...If licenses would come out for Railfans, I'd keep on railfanning the way I do now....licenseless. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brak710101

wouldn't work I hate to say it i love the idea, but no.... If you call a railroad to ask if you can wonder around their property, more than likly they will say yes, but the RR police can still kick you off. so basicly a Police officer could say your disturbing the peace (i dunno, trains are loud, so maybe something else...) because SOMEONE OWNS THE LAND no matter if its public or not, its their decision. Like pets or skateboarding on public school property... BANNED!

On what authority do you contend that railroad police can kick someone off of public property?

Gabe

[Anonymous]

Hell I would have anything to have the damn cops just leave me alone. Why don't they spend their time going after drug dealers and cracking down speeders and just leave us damn railfans alone. And no I did not say "ALL" cops eather!!! I mean if you see a bunch of Railfans photographing a train what are you gona do? Take them all to jail just for Railfanning? My god get real.

[miniwyo]

How would obtaining a licence prevent terrorists from taking pictures? A terrorist would probably not mind paying $5.00 to take out countless innocent people.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brak710101

wouldn't work I hate to say it i love the idea, but no.... If you call a railroad to ask if you can wonder around their property, more than likly they will say yes, but the RR police can still kick you off. so basicly a Police officer could say your disturbing the peace (i dunno, trains are loud, so maybe something else...) because SOMEONE OWNS THE LAND no matter if its public or not, its their decision. Like pets or skateboarding on public school property... BANNED!

On what authority do you contend that railroad police can kick someone off of public property?

Gabe

Thats not really what i ment...
What i mean is that if you have ever went railfaning at a yard of somesort, you know you have to get premission from the yard office. But, even if you have the paper from the yardoffice, the RR police can still kick you out. Now, a real police officer could ask/tell you to get off even public property if they wanted to. They may think its a law not to take photos of trains, so your better to listen to them and go some where else rather than be taken to the HQ to be booked,

[dwil89]

True story..a couple of years ago, I was out of state railfanning when I pass by a powerplant where they are feeding loaded coal hoppers into a rotary dumper..so I do a U turn and stop b the side of the road to watch. The hoppers stop, but I film the operation., waiting for the next car to be fed into the dumper. All of a sudden, a private security vehicle pulls up and a Barney Fife gets out and asks me what I'm doing. I reply that I'm filming the rotary dumper. He says, well you are on Private Plant property and you can't take pictures of the plant. First of all, I was on the right of way of the road, and the railroad mainline was between me and the plant. I responded as such, and that I do not see any signs saying no photography. We talk for a few minutes and he sees the railfan magazines on my dashboard. He then relents and says that I am welcome to watch, but the guys are out to lunch, I can wait for them or come back after lunch. Why was I fed a line of hogwash? When was a right of way of a public road Private Property in this instance? I guess my 'Railfan identity card' if it had existed would have set Deputy Fife straight? I think not.....Know the laws.....be courteous however in your interaction.with the PD... If you get hauled down to HQ, the have no grounds to hold you if you are courteous to the Officer and are within the Law. A pocket copy of the US Constitution in your shirt pocket might be handy to carry along nowadays, it seems. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Anonymous]

That's why I like to Railfan alone anymore! "Away from the (Public)". SNITCHES.

[bnsfkline]

Heres one why to identify that you are a true railfan for this lisence
They give you a TEST about railroads, not some simple test, but a test that tests your knowledge. And to be sure that you are the real deal, Photos that you take (With Negatives) and some little information about the photos. I admit, maybe the lisence should be free, I am just trying to make our lives a little easier.

[jabrown1971]

Let the Manufacturers Railway Merge UP into their System....Then Armour Yellow/Harbor Mist Grey will become Green/Cream/Gold-copied fron BNSFKLINE


I like that quote-If anyone know how to run a railroad it's Anheuser Busch

[dwil89]

I would not use such a Card. Hunting license, fishing license, I agree with, since you are shooting animals and removing fish from the watershed, However, I am not going to carry an ID to apologize, or validate myself being a railfan any more than someone should need an ID to birdwatch, watch planes, or sit and watch Harleys drive by. If a Railfan ID were started, and I was automatically sent one, it would go straight to the trash. Its up to the powers that be, to educate themselves on Railfans, perhaps they need to subscribe to Railpace, or Trains to understand the hobby so they are not wasting their time, taxpayer money, harassing innocent railfans. I'll be darned, if I have to carry an ID as a security blanket just to take pictures of trains. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Anonymous]

These threads are enough to try an active cop's patience.
I've been a deputy for a little over two years. During that time, I've made arrests and issued citations "on public property", and "on private property", running into the dozens. During that time, I've also run into exactly two railfans, one birdwatcher, and a bunch of folks wandering around near an Army parachute drop zone (on private property) trying to take pictures of Junior defying death from sudden impacts with the ground.

I don't need to subscribe to TRAINS, the Audubon Society, the Sierra Club, or the AIRBORNE journal to figure out when someone is doing something harmless, or when they are breaking the law. I do need to graduate from a police academy, take additional training each month, and undergo the supervision of my sergeant, lieutenant, chief of deputies and Sheriff. My arrests are also scrutinized by the same people as well as a District Attorney, judge, and sometimes, a jury. There are even folks from the local "media" and watch groups ranging from the NAACP to Amnesty International who pay very close attention to the activities of my department and me. I don't worry about them as long as I do my job right. When I do screw up (it does happen- I'm human) I hear about it in ways that have a real impact on my paycheck, my marriage, and my life in general.

Each time I stop my patrol car to "hassle the public", I'm doing it for a reason. Usually it's because I'm responding to a call from a property owner or because someone sees, hears, or smells something suspicious. (An example of this was a call I got of a possible crystal meth lab in a neighborhood. Turned out the ammonia smell was from the fertilizer a farmer had just put down.)

Woe be unto the cop who dumps a call into the hopper because he/she "knows" it's a dumb call.

I routinely pull up behind cars parked on the side of the road that don't belong there. Because I've been shot at from cars like that, I will always call in the plate and my location. You could say that I am "hassling the public"... but you would be awfully happy if that car turned out to be YOUR car removed from YOUR driveway without YOUR permission. Similarly, you probably would be grateful if I rolled up just after you had been mugged "on public property" where your Nikon had been removed from you and your body was busily trying to expire in a ditch.

It is my distinct impression from learning the hard way- through contact with a lot of the public- that someone who practices law on the side of a road, or in a public area, without benefit of passing the bar- has something to hide that they don't want me to know about. The general public in my little patch of heaven gets upset over my "hassling citizens" when they are the recipient of a traffic ticket or a citation. That's nothing compared to the wrath of my county government when they discover I let a bad guy with warrants go because I couldn't be bothered to ask him/her what he/she is doing.

Folks, I do this job because it pays the bills, it's something I generally enjoy doing, and it needs to be done. My first training officer made it pretty clear to me: "If you want the love of the public, go be a fireman. Nobody objects when a fire truck or ambulance shows up at the front door, even when they dump 500 gallons of water in the kitchen to put out a grease fire. Everyone hates the cop at the front door, even when they called him there."

Most police and sheriff departments have "ride along" programs for the general public. Instead of generally blasting law enforcement for "neo Nazi" activities, why not take a ride with a real cop doing a real job? You might discover that the police and deputies out there aren't as stupid as you think. More to the point, you might actually figure out WHY we do what we do when we do it.

Erik

[edblysard]

Erik,
I think you may have misunderstood my posting....

In no way do I think cops are ***...but I do have severe doubts about the guys running Homeland Security...

I advise anyone approached by a officer to cooperate completly....every cop I have ever know dosnt "hassle" the average citizen.

They do, on the other hand, check out things that seem out of place, or dont add up in their experience, and most of the time their right.

I also advise anyone who dosnt possess an license to pratice law in their state to not quote "the law" to a cop...most cops forget more valid laws than the average citizen can dream up, and they do dream up some weird concepts of "law"...often confusing what they think is right with what is legal.

Last, if someone is going to complain about a cop, I said to do so through channels...gripping on a forum about the cop who hasseled you dosnt do a darn thing...and if your going to gripe through channels, be prepared to defend you gripe to close scrutiny.

Are there bad cops?

Sure, but there is also a lot more "bad" citizens than bad cops...and the checks and balances that do keep cops from abusing their power work most of the time.
I have met only one cop in my life time who became a cop for the "power" it gave him, and he didnt last at the job very long...the system works quite well to weed out bad cops, and its getting better every year.

The very fact that most cops deal with the scum of our society all day long, and then, when they do interact with the average citizen, when they have to issue a traffic citation or just answer a question, they always act in a manner that reflects well on their uniform and badge.

It has been my experience that most people who do gripe about what a cop did, or didnt do to them, is often just an attempt to justify being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and getting caught doing something they knew they shouldnt be doing.

And, just because a cop tells you to move on, dosnt mean he thinks your doing something "wrong"...

Case in point happened to me a few months ago...

Was out at Pierce yard in the late evening, taking a few shots of the UP dumping out a rock train...was approached by a HPD patrol officer...she advised me I needed to "get on outta here"...

I explained what I was doing, told her I was a railroad employee, started to explain that I was on a public road, and that the guys that work here all knew me, and didnt care.....

She let me get fairly deep into it, then stopped me with, "I really dont care if you take all kind of pictures...but I do mind you being here after dark, this is a really bad area for people to be out in at night, and your gonna get robbed and your camera stolen. So if you dont mind, get in your car and get outta here, so I dont have to come back later with a ambulance and get your body."

She was absolutely serious about it...what I thought was going to be a cop moving on a guy who didnt fit and didnt belong, a 'hassle" if you will, " turned out to be a serious warning about my safety, from a person who really cared.

So, just because a cop asked you to move....

Ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by erikthered

Nobody objects when a fire truck or ambulance shows up at the front door, even when they dump 500 gallons of water in the kitchen to put out a grease fire.

LOL! When that happened to my great-grandma , lol, they flooded the basement, way more than 500 I must say! They need to be more conservative. [:0] LOL! good times....

[jabrown1971]

I think that everyone needs to take one giant step back anr reevaluate what is going on here. The police are more vigilant than ever before and are looking for people who are doing wrong. Your intent might not to do anything wrong, but they don't know that and the only they can find out is to ask. What you might think is public area may indeed be private property, or even in public areas you might be causing a hazard not only to yourself but to others. I have had several run in's-all positive with law enforcement officials and it is generally cleared up with an explanation. Most people think that a short answer will give the man or woman the peace of mind they seek. I have an experience that comes to mind when I say this. One night as a dispatcher for the Indiana Rail Road I had just dropped a crew off at a local crossing, watched the train pass and crossed behind it to turn around. After turning around I crossed over the tracks without stopping at the stop sign. A few seconds later red and blue lights flashed and I was stopped. Officer approached my car and asked why I didn't stop at the tracks, he said I could have been hit by a train. I said no sir, that's impossible. You see I just dropped the crew off and the train just left. There are no more trains tonight. He shook his head, got back in his car and left.

[dwil89]

As I said in an earlier post on this thread, I said, as long as you are courteous to the officer, and are within the law, you should be safe from being locked up. My point was with the way the Metra incident was handled.....A simple conversation could have straightened it out. Being held for an hour, having a vehicle searched, being told that the Joint Terrorism task force will make the decision as to whether the railfans go free, or go into federal custody, being told that public photography of that nature is illegal, and future activity of that sort could result in arrest, this is what is wrong here.....Obviously, someone high up is not up on the Railfan Hobby, and thinks that anyone taking pictures of passenger trains is to be considered as a possible threat. Dave Williams

[Anonymous]

I had a similar idea and found it met with all sorts of negative feedback along the lines of rights and previously tried it.....didn't work then won't work now. My thought was that it could be accessed by, say the police agencies as they do when they run a license plate. It would be in a national registry as in the plate situation and your "I.D. card" would let the police know you were accepted by the railroads as a railfan allowing you to persue your hobby in relative peace. The 'fee' could go to the RR's charity of choice or in a fund for disabled RR workers/families or to fund railfan sites as in Rochelle or some useful thing like that. We are governed by a whole lot more buracracy (sp?) than this in our lives and while I don't like having more red tape or hoops to jump through it sure would save a lot of heartache with the police trying to explain why you are doing what you are doing, I think. But probably won't happen, I suspect.