OvermodThink about this a moment. If the wheels are 'self-centering on their treads' (which in fact, they are) how can one of them be continuously skidding and not the other?
On a curve, one wheel will have more weight on it than the other, either as a function of the displaced center of gravity (on a slower speed curve with a cant) or due to centrifugal force. That wheel will govern how fast the set is turning.
Since the path around the curve is a different length for each wheel, one will have to be skidding, although it's possible that both are skidding. Can't deny that.
Either way, at least one wheel is sliding. The only debate is whether it is being turned faster than the rail is passing under it, or slower.
As I said - tune in to the Deshler rail cam and watch a few trains go over the transfer tracks (go to the "360" cam).
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
tree68I'm pretty sure it's wheel tread vs railhead - the flanges are not a factor. The wheels are self-centering on their treads.
Think about this a moment. If the wheels are 'self-centering on their treads' (which in fact, they are) how can one of them be continuously skidding and not the other? Moreover, if the force on the two wheels is approximately equal, which is one of the things a three-piece truck is designed to assure ... where does the force come from that can continuously skid a wheel? You understand from the fact that air brakes work that the force between wheel and rail is great enough to transmit enormous braking effort, from heavy pressure through a large shoe area. Surely you don't think a contact patch on one wheel has the ability to sustain a skid -- a noisy one, so you know energy is being transferred -- on the other end of the axle.
If the rails are damp, the gauge corner and flange are lubricated just as the tread contact patches are.
Corrugation is the result of wheel tread damage. Railhead (ball) wear is increased as the angle of attack of the trucks increases (flange trying to climb over the gage corner)
OvermodThat squeal is almost certainly flange contact. Wheeltread noise is like that from creep control, a low ticking or ringing that would be completely lost in the squeal unless you had a good waterfall frequency analyzer.
I'm pretty sure it's wheel tread vs railhead - the flanges are not a factor. The wheels are self-centering on their treads.
Tune in to the Deshler rail cam (free on YouTube) sometime when a string of loaded coil cars is making the turn south on the southwest transfer. The squeal is constant, the speed is at or under 10 MPH.
If the rails are damp, lighter cars won't squeal at all, or minimally, as the interface is lubricated. Dry rail = squeal.
tree68As illustrated by the squeal heard at Deshler as trains transit the transfers. You just know that the one wheel that's sliding, ever so slightly, is doing damage at the same time.
That squeal is almost certainly flange contact. Wheeltread noise is like that from creep control, a low ticking or ringing that would be completely lost in the squeal unless you had a good waterfall frequency analyzer.
Here is a good reference that 'started much of the modern understanding' of wheel/rail interaction
Up to the point Wickens started his analysis of four-wheel-vehicle stability, the 'accepted wisdom' was that which produced the C&O Train X and TALGO vehicle "stability" -- the idea that wheels that rotated freely relative to each other produced better riding and guiding than a solid wheelset. I worked out a method for doing axles that would permit differential rotation; in fact, someone smarter than I am went so far as to get a patent on the same general approach with the same design considerations. He could never quite sell anyone on the idea, and now we know considerably more about why it wouldn't work as intended.
Where the slight differential slip DOES come into its own is likely when HAL goes into the wrong excess range for the railhead steel and hardening method. When you are close to the range in which plastic flow under a work-hardened surface and 'all that other jazz' start to be a danger, anything that spot-increases the potential for damage, particularly if it has the 'adhesion' of higher spot weight to make its effect more direct, can put a contact patch 'over the line' into, say, vertical crack formation and propagation, or if it occurs close to the root of the wheeltread coning, gauge-corner cracking. And those are of ominously greater importance than squeal and scuffing wear from inadequate spot greasing...
BaltACDCurves are the high wear locations for rail.
As illustrated by the squeal heard at Deshler as trains transit the transfers. You just know that the one wheel that's sliding, ever so slightly, is doing damage at the same time.
half car JPS1 Periodically I see BNSF, UP, etc. replacing main line rail. What happens to the old rail? There are times that rail appears to being replaced with all the men and equipment around but what they are doing is turning the rail. On jointed rail it is simply unbolted and picked up and turned end for end and put back in place. This allows the other side of the head to be used. On welded rail, say a track running east to west the south rail is moved to the north side and north rail moved to the south side to use the other side of the head. This is called transposing. I have seen rail where my thumb is wider than the head of one side of the rail. Once it is turned it can last for a few more years before replacement.
JPS1 Periodically I see BNSF, UP, etc. replacing main line rail. What happens to the old rail?
Periodically I see BNSF, UP, etc. replacing main line rail. What happens to the old rail?
There are times that rail appears to being replaced with all the men and equipment around but what they are doing is turning the rail. On jointed rail it is simply unbolted and picked up and turned end for end and put back in place. This allows the other side of the head to be used. On welded rail, say a track running east to west the south rail is moved to the north side and north rail moved to the south side to use the other side of the head. This is called transposing. I have seen rail where my thumb is wider than the head of one side of the rail. Once it is turned it can last for a few more years before replacement.
Never heard of rail being turned end of end. Not saying it hasn't been done - I just haven't heard of it.
CSX operates a number of 'Curve Patch' rail gangs. These gangs in many situations will transpose the low rail to the high rail (or vice versa) an install new rail in the 'vacant' position. The rail removed from the track will normally be heavily head worn on both sides of the head - as wear happens on one side of the head on the rail's initial installed location and then when transposed to the other side, it will get additional wear on what is now a 'new' head face in the rails new position.
Curves are the high wear locations for rail.
Curve rail transposition. High to Low/Low to High ... and most do not turn it around. (and then you have to be carefull about gage)
DC will back this up - On our railroad (Santa Fe) on timber bridges, t-rails were used to reinforce and stiffen main track bridges (under the deck on ballast deck bridges or under the ties on open deck bridges) , about 24 rails to a span (replacing the stringers)
tree68 A less-known use for rails was as reference points for curves. MC would have to provide details, but I know of several spots on the Adirondack where this was done.
A less-known use for rails was as reference points for curves. MC would have to provide details, but I know of several spots on the Adirondack where this was done.
Have seen rails used for cattle guards bottomes and sloping sides on roads leading into open ranges and other pastures.
Semper Vaporo A small chunk of used rail is a great small anvil for home use when you just gotta pound on something and don't want to damage your front steps or concrete porch.
A small chunk of used rail is a great small anvil for home use when you just gotta pound on something and don't want to damage your front steps or concrete porch.
I probably purchased many, many of those bedrails for my employer at the time, over 20 years ago. One of the employer's factories made beds for use in prisons. The re-rolled rail bedframes were required because the steel was substantially harder than "normal" steel, thus making them more difficult for the thugs to cut and shape into shanks (homemade knives).
EDIT: Sorry, I intended to include johniacono's post about the steel mill that purchased used rail to re-roll into various shapes.
Another use of used rail sections is to make service awards for rail-related organizations, like the one I received last March as a director of the Keokuk Union Depot Foundation.
https://www.forecyte.com/images/rail_award_rcl.jpg
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
I've seen a few places where stick rail has been pounded into the ground vertically by a pile driver, to act as a sort of retaining wall in an attempt to prevent or slow down landslides.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Several of us were doing some "railroad archeology" one day and wandered into a culvert under the tracks. The walls were stone (possibly built 1892 along with the rest of the railroad), but the roof was rails, set side by side.
This is a large culvert - I can stand up inside it easily.
Apparently it was a common practice.
I Used to have lunch everyday with a gentleman that was a principle owner in a steel mill that purshaced used RR rails. The rails were reprocessed at a mill in Pennsylvania into different items for sale . Some of the items are, harvard bed frames, elevator guide rails, bar stock used in building construction, etc. He had an entire catalogue of steel shapes and parts. The business was very successful. I do not know if the business is still in existance today because I retired 14 years ago and have not had lunch with the boys since then.
Many years ago, the rails from the FEC track to Key West were made into the guardrails for the US-1 bridges. If you go down there today you will see what salt air does to rail after over 80 years of exposure.
Years ago in my hometown there was a loading ramp made from old rail. The rail was installed over the steel frame with the railhead down. The ramp was about 20 ft. wide and almost a city block long. It stood about 8 ft above the ground as it was used for loading pulp wood into gondolas. A huge amount of rail, it was removed (scrapped) when log loaders were installed on logging trucks. It was a sight to see and ride bicycles up and over.
God's Best & Happy Rails to You!
Bing (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)
The future: Dead Rail Society
Tried to search for that show .. could not find it
Paul, fenceposts from this concern didn't look like rail at all--the rail was cut, sliced, rolled, stamped, whatever into fenceposts that actually looked like fenceposts. The rails weren't heated hot enough to melt, but the actions mentioned above could easily be done.My most recent report to my fellow freight-car freaks was sent out last night. Its 32 pages soundly eclipsed the previous record. I took the day off today to get irradiated (dose two out of three). Tomorrow we answer phones at the studios of WFMT, and I might use a route near some tracks to get back home.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
zugmann mudchicken Most angle bars are made from old railcar axles acting as billets. Using T-rail as crossing posts, sign posts in the old days was cost effective(witness DRGW), today not so much. (The idea of keeping crossbucks intact is appealing* , but the cost difference of scrap rail vs. treated posts or t-posts is huge with steel at $900+/ton.) What about the breakaway standards for sign posts?
mudchicken Most angle bars are made from old railcar axles acting as billets. Using T-rail as crossing posts, sign posts in the old days was cost effective(witness DRGW), today not so much. (The idea of keeping crossbucks intact is appealing* , but the cost difference of scrap rail vs. treated posts or t-posts is huge with steel at $900+/ton.)
What about the breakaway standards for sign posts?
(Thinking of a certain county road crossing just west of Walsh Colorado (Now CVR) that seemed to have its crossbucks hammered about every 6 weeks...
6" x 6" borate treated posts look like kindling after John Deere's rig attacks the crossbuck.
mudchickenThe agri-dummies exact a huge toll every spring planting and fall harvest with illegal width moves between locations/ fields because they won't spend the time to totally break down equipment. Crossbucks and approach signs are forever getting mangled ... Shortlines cannot afford the upgrades.
Interesting that distributed cameras for 'crossing enforcement' (solar-charged with cell-phone modem for connection) would neatly catch these culprits (whether or not the camera is damaged or 'disappears' in the process...) Then impose very, very large fines. Watch the problem reduce ... one way or t'other.
mudchickenMost angle bars are made from old railcar axles acting as billets. Using T-rail as crossing posts, sign posts in the old days was cost effective(witness DRGW), today not so much. (The idea of keeping crossbucks intact is appealing* , but the cost difference of scrap rail vs. treated posts or t-posts is huge with steel at $900+/ton.)
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
PDN: Already running into the problem of not having sufficient OTM, espectially tie plates and usable anchors with some life still left. In the yards, the conversion to longer tracks still goes on.
Also standards for cropping rail to become servicable SH-CWR kills off lots of rail because its too worn, surface bent, etc.
Most angle bars are made from old railcar axles acting as billets. Using T-rail as crossing posts, sign posts in the old days was cost effective(witness DRGW), today not so much. (The idea of keeping crossbucks intact is appealing* , but the cost difference of scrap rail vs. treated posts or t-posts is huge with steel at $900+/ton.)
(*) The agri-dummies exact a huge toll every spring planting and fall harvest with illegal width moves between locations/ fields because they won't spend the time to totally break down equipment. Crossbucks and approach signs are forever getting mangled.
Shortlines cannot afford the upgrades.
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