GERALD L MCFARLANE JR zugmann Yeah, we're getting married next month. Coming to the reception? I think you're looking at this with a 1960's nostalgic view of and excursion railroad, not a current day scenic, and yes, entertainment operation. People are not riding this from A->B. They are riding for the sake of riding. Like a roller coaster. And knowing you meant well, I'll excuse you for your remarks of my interest in the railroad industry this time. Actually, I would hazard a guess that people aren't riding it for the train...but to see the Lehigh Gorge, which makes it transportation, therefore not an amusement ride. Also, Andy Muller himself basically said he makes his money from freight, not the passenger service, which tells me either he breaks even or has a small loss, but makes very little to no profit from it.
zugmann Yeah, we're getting married next month. Coming to the reception? I think you're looking at this with a 1960's nostalgic view of and excursion railroad, not a current day scenic, and yes, entertainment operation. People are not riding this from A->B. They are riding for the sake of riding. Like a roller coaster. And knowing you meant well, I'll excuse you for your remarks of my interest in the railroad industry this time.
Yeah, we're getting married next month. Coming to the reception?
I think you're looking at this with a 1960's nostalgic view of and excursion railroad, not a current day scenic, and yes, entertainment operation. People are not riding this from A->B. They are riding for the sake of riding. Like a roller coaster.
And knowing you meant well, I'll excuse you for your remarks of my interest in the railroad industry this time.
Actually, I would hazard a guess that people aren't riding it for the train...but to see the Lehigh Gorge, which makes it transportation, therefore not an amusement ride.
Also, Andy Muller himself basically said he makes his money from freight, not the passenger service, which tells me either he breaks even or has a small loss, but makes very little to no profit from it.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Paul_D_North_JrIt would be real interesting to do the math of average adult, child, etc. riders per trip times their respective rates times how many trips per day, and compare that to the typical costs of operating a locomotive with an engineer and a 4 or 5 person train crew (including conductor), plus something for track and equipment maintenance, etc.
Our folks did that math a few years ago and figured out that in order to break even, our "local" trip (20 miles round-trip, about an hour and a half) we needed 35 passengers.
That factored in actual train operation, administrative and mechanical overhead, insurance, and other such costs. Inasmuch as most of our crews are volunteer, direct labor isn't a factor.
It would be hard to argue against the "amusement" angle for some of our trains. Wine and beer trains, Haunted History, theme (Princesses and Superheros, train robberies, the "murder mystery" trains we used to run, all have an entertainment aspect to them.
Unfortunately, I think that riding a train to view the scenery kinda does fall under "amusement." We have hundreds of riders in the fall who are aboard specifically to see the fall colors. That they also visit downtown to shop and eat is almost secondary.
But the question on the Lehigh Gorge issue remains: Why now? Granted, they caught it in an audit, but how did no one notice the shortfall for over ten years?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
daveklepperMedian Mike, you are 100% wrong: Viewing scenery is not an amusement. It is education. Otherwise we would not have the Nastional Park System and all the Government-funded facilities to view Nature's wonders.
Perhaps it is you who need educating. The National Park mission statement (specifically for Yellowstone) says they are there to preserve wildlife, natural and historical features " for the enjoyment, education, and inspiration of this and future generations." Education is only part of it, "enjoyment" (perchance amusement) is listed first.
As far as transportation is concerned, the Surface Transportation Board does not regulate or concern itself with tourist railroads.
daveklepperAnd the railroad pays real-estate taxes and other taxes to the community to support the services it and its employees receive. Additional expenses to the town due to railroad operations are not only supported by those taxes, but also by the additional taxes received because of the increased business in all sectors of the town the railroad has made possible.
Everyone in town pays property taxes. The railroad would pay those taxes whether they ran tourist trains or not. All those tourists do not pay property taxes, so all their use of town services is not supported by them. Extra business they bring to town is not captured by business property taxes. If there is a state sales tax, it goes to the state general fund.
daveklepper...passenger operation was not a money-maker and was provided as a service and contribution for and to the community.
If the tourist operation is truly a service for the comunity, they they should be engaging with the community and their duly elected officials. Otherwise it is just a vanity project. It is in the railroads interest to successfully engage in the local political process. Otherwise things happen like at the Catskill Mountain RR.
Enjoymnent and amusement are two different words. When I hear the Beehoven Ninth Symnphony, I have enjoyment but not amusement.
When I look at Gore Canyon from the California Zephyr, I enjoy, but am not amused.
If there is a streetcar line runing to an Amusement Park outside the town's boundaries, so the Amusement Park does not pay an amusement tax, is the streetcar company obligated to collect an amusement tax on all fares for those going to and from the amusement park?
And again, amusement and enjoyment are two different words.
I am amused by a joke. I enjoy reading "War and Peace" or "David Copperfield."
daveklepper I should also point out, as a general matter, that when a poster writes "Mr. ___ seems to think..." the writer is converting an issue into a personal issue, not a question of just which fact or opinion is correct. And in this case I did point out in previous posts that the railroad does pay other taxes. So (1) the scenergy isn't for free, and (2) it's the freight, not the scenery, that provides a living for the railroad and its employees. And for both the scenery and the frieght, the railroad provides transportation, not amusement.
I should also point out, as a general matter, that when a poster writes "Mr. ___ seems to think..." the writer is converting an issue into a personal issue, not a question of just which fact or opinion is correct.
And in this case I did point out in previous posts that the railroad does pay other taxes. So (1) the scenergy isn't for free, and (2) it's the freight, not the scenery, that provides a living for the railroad and its employees. And for both the scenery and the frieght, the railroad provides transportation, not amusement.
I am simply stating what you seem to be saying so you can point out where I might have missed something. The railroad pays no extra taxes specifically for the tourist trains that can be identified. The passengers pay for the ticket, but as you say the railroad only provides transportation, so I have to conclude that they are getting to see the scenery for free.
daveklepper Enjoymnent and amusement are two different words. When I hear the Beehoven Ninth Symnphony, I have enjoyment but not amusement. When I look at Gore Canyon from the California Zephyr, I enjoy, but am not amused. If there is a streetcar line runing to an Amusement Park outside the town's boundaries, so the Amusement Park does not pay an amusement tax, is the streetcar company obligated to collect an amusement tax on all fares for those going to and from the amusement park? And again, amusement and enjoyment are two different words. I am amused by a joke. I enjoy reading "War and Peace" or "David Copperfield."
Did the people enjoy going to the amusement park?
Yes. Amusement includes enjoyment. But enjoyment definitely does not necessarily include amusement.
Regarding the Property Tax. The tax on emply undeveloped property is usually a lot lower than property that has been developed. The property taxes the railroad pays reflect that they are used for a profitable freight business and reflect the state of development. The railroad was and continues paying its fair share of the burdens of the community before this addiitonal tax was levied on it. There are probably other taxes involved, also.
Equating a grand work of nature with an amusement park or a theater is to trivialize it. I would add a religious dimension to this discussion if the rules permitted, but instead:
Is it possible that this is the same kind of trivialization that the Colorado Highway Department implemented?
Perhaps I should have written "may continue" instead of "continues." Does the railroad have freight customers in Jim Thorp itself?
And if it does, even then, are there ways they can leave while assuring service for those customers remains?
And viewing Nature's Autumn Colors is enjoyment, not amusement.
Regards - Steve
It appears that a lot of this discussion is getting hung up over semantics. The crux of the issue is that the borough of Jim Thorpe needs a new revenue source for any of a number of reasons and a previously uncollected amusement tax seems to fill the need. The appropriate statute needs to be reviewed to find out just what is covered by the aforementioned amusement tax.
Our sales tax has two components - the state portion and the local portion. Obviously the state portion goes to the state. The bulk of the local portion goes back to the municipality where it was collected (the county keeps a cut, too).
Some of the townships have a base property tax rate of zero as a result, although their annual tax bills still include special districts and the like.
We also have a "bed tax," collected at hotels and motels. Much of that goes back to the municipalities where it is collected as well, with the county keeping the rest.
"Amusement tax" is more palatable than "tourist tax." It would be interesting to see exactly how the local law reads.
I haven't seen whether the 'amusement tax' is supposed to be applied to the other RBMN trips to Jim Thorpe, particularly the ten 'observation car' trains there (six diesel and four steam, this year) that are billed as 'excursions' rather than transportation to Jim Thorpe or for the city's residents to travel to Reading Outer Station or Port Clinton.
I'd think the tax would only apply to round trips, with no formal 'stop' at their outer ending point, that begin and end in Jim Thorpe. To my knowledge that describes what the "Lehigh Gorge and Northern" service does. This is of course a matter of concern to many 'tourist-railroad' types of operation, particularly those that are on a relative shoestring budget in the first place, and I'm interested in seeing what the ARM/TRAIN perspective on this issue, or amicus-curiae-type opinions on this issue, will be.
What I find surprising, as an outsider to the issue, is that it hasn't followed what I'd expect the logical course to be:
Jim Thorpe imposes their 'amusement tax'; Andy files a motion to contest it, and asks for a stay of implementation; the matter is heard in a proper court and (hopefully!) the result is then applicable as precedent for, or against, amusement tax on other comparable tourist railroad operations.
Instead, the prompt response is to cut the gorge excursions -- without, so far as I can see, any mention of cutting back the other excursions RBMN runs to Jim Thorpe. In my opinion that bolsters the speculation that 'personalities are involved here' somehow.
Spirited, lively discussion here folks, my compliments to you all! A lot of serious thinking going on here.
By the way, I just love the name "Reading Outer Station." Kind of implies there's something mysterious and exotic going on there, a call to adventure!
Kind of like "The Last Outpost..."
Careful use of words seems appropriate on this Forum. One gets enjoyment from a delicious carefully-prepared meal, but one hardly gets amusement unless conversation provides such.
After much deliberation, I think a semantic chart for this issue might be appropriate, and here is the one I prepared, based only on my 87-years' life experience:
I believe once the new bridge is open, the mine runs, the coal trains, will no longer run via Jim Thorp, close-by, but not in the town itself. Is the wine merchant in the town?
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There are many great works of nature that don't demand an entrance fee. One can fly over those where one is charged with a light plane and not pay sn entrance fee. I think if you were to ask a USA Rqnger the quesition: Is the entrance fee charged a fee to see Nature's wonders or is it a fee for upkeep, for facilities, and people that facilitate the visits, he or she would answer the secod, of course.
Who is reponsible for the existance of Lehigh Gorge? Does the town do anything to maintain it? As a responsible and religious person, I believe I do my best to pay for the marvels I have see, and indeed, for me at least, writing on this topic on this thread is one form of payment.
Im a sense, fo rme, personally, the Town's levi on this partifular item seems a small theft. Not the huge crime that the Colorado Highesy Department perpetrated, but a small one based on the same misunderstanding.
daveklepperI believe once the new bridge is open, the mine runs, the coal trains, will no longer run via Jim Thorpe, close-by, but not in the town itself.
To my knowledge the freight service is not an issue here. The town is not proposing a tax on the railroad itself; in fact, the spending of the $600,000 on flagging to rebuild crossings indicates that the town does not object to its presence.
Neither is the railroad ceasing its not-inconsiderable traffic specifically to Jim Thorpe as a destination. That is, unless their Web presence is completely obsolete, and their only destinations are the 'Santa trains' and Pottstown... which I think is unlikely. They continue to advertise that people can save the 'parking fees' and the potentially-terrifying drive to the town by riding their longer service. So this isn't about anything but the scenic runs with the old Reading coaches.
(Where is the place in that Venn diagram for amusement that involves horror -- something ramping up in these weeks before Halloween?)
Fake horror is not the same as real horror. Fake horror is definitely within amusement. The kind of horror I am referring unfortunately still exists today and is supported by certain specific governments (with additional funds made available, unwittingly, for that horror by a former USA President), even excused or praised by a very few members of the USA Congress, and also brought on, unwittingly, by a sudden decision by the current President which he now seems to be doing his best to reverse.
There are several items of history that always will be part of my memory and part of my daily experience. Some are very positive and some very much the opposite.
If Jim Thorp needs additional revenue, then an "Added Value" tax on all purchases woiuld be much fairer. This woud include all transportation, including taxi fares, restaurant meals, etc., except where and if thrre are specific taxes, like hotel taxes. And exceptions would specifically be made for hospitals, houses of worship, schools, etc.
Does the town of Jim Thorp have a (probably subsidized) municipal bus system?
And if for some reason Andy Muller should decide to pay in full and continue the Lehigh Gorge Train, I would not change my analysis, but would be happy with a peaceful resolution of the quarrel.
If the train is discontinued, can the Town's municipal buses provide a substitute service?
daveklepperIf the train is discontinued, can the Town's municipal buses provide a substitute service?
Municipal bus service in Jim Thorpe? Have you looked at a map of that town?
Here's the long version of the services provided. You can judge which, if any, of them would "stand in" for the scenic train.
http://www.carboncounty.com/index.php/2-uncategorised/131-public-transportation
There is also long-distance bus service, but I doubt the coach company provides any more scenic tour than the road itself does. It's of course possible that a chartered arrangement could be made, but it wouldn't be the same without openable windows... or the views from close to river level.
At the risk of sounding ignorant here (what the hell, no guts, no glory) does the municipality of Jim Thorpe even have the authority to impose a tax on the railroad?
It's my understanding taxes on railroads are applied on the Federal and state level, not the county and/or town level.
So, is this proposed imposition of a tax on the Lehigh Gorge RR legitimate, or an overreach on the town's part? Or would that have to be decided in court?
Flintlock76So, is this proposed imposition of a tax on the Lehigh Gorge RR legitimate, or an overreach on the town's part? Or would that have to be decided in court?
The short answer is that of course it will have to be decided in court. Unless the town just acquiesces in RBMN's choice to stop the Lehigh Gorge and Northern trains, pardon the pun, in their tracks. And doesn't plan to collect those years "in arrears" according to them.
Personally, I don't see any reason the municipality couldn't impose an amusement tax, or that there's some overarching Federal-general-system-of-transportation rule applying to out-and-back scenic excursions that trumps the applicability of such a tax. That's for the better lawyer to prevail upon, and I'm sure it will be fascinatingly hashed out in detail, with the tourist-railroad industry very carefully watching.
Tax the rain!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Tax the rain!
Don't laugh, New Jersey's proposed just that! Has something to do with driveways and parking lots adding to the run-off in streams and rivers. Or something.
Anyway, I wonder if there's an "amusement tax" on this? Wouldn't surprise me, NJ taxes just about everything else.
Looks like a nice ride!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKnLRH1RuYY
Their "Santa Train" is another casualty. It will run, but not in Jim Thorpe:
https://www.mcall.com/news/local/mc-nws-santa-train-new-schedule-20191018-puraztjvybf4dkml7t7qzzhns4-story.html
Here is the law's definition of "Amusement," cut and pasted from the local law:
All manner and form of entertainment within the Borough of Jim Thorpe, including, among others, theatrical or musical performances, concerts, lectures, vaudeville, circus, carnival and sideshows, all forms of entertainment at fair grounds and amusement parks, athletic contests, including wrestling matches, boxing and sparring exhibitions, football, basketball and baseball games, skating, ski lifting, golfing, including golf cart rental fees, tennis, hockey, bathing, swimming, boating, water skiing, shooting, trap and skeet shooting, riding, dancing, golf driving ranges, miniature golf courses, bowling alleys, pool and billiard parlors, racing, and all other forms of diversions, sport, winter or summer recreation or pastime, shows, exhibitions, contests, displays and games, and all other methods of obtaining admission charges, donations, contributions or monetary charges of any character, from the general public or a limited or selected number thereof, directly or indirectly, in return for other tangible property, or specific personal or professional service.
Flintlock76Anyway, I wonder if there's an "amusement tax" on this? Wouldn't surprise me ...
Getting an answer to this turns out to be remarkably involved! The only way to contact the operation directly appears to be by telephone, at strictly limited hours (877-872-4674, M-F noon to 5 Eastern; Sat/Sun 11 to 3) and not only isn't there any e-mail address given, the parent organization (the NYS&W Technical & Historical Society) doesn't provide one either! (They do provide 'forums' but very few people seem to have bothered with them)
So your likeliest way to get an answer to Phillipsburg 'amusement tax' or other community organizing matters is probably the Society's Facebook Group page:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/98707546433/
Incidentally, I see to my relief that 'privateers' have stepped in to provide the New York 'Toys for Tots' train this year, after Amtrak made its policy changes in August 2018.
https://www.operationtoytrain.org/sponsors
click on "Train Schedule" and it will download as a PDF, showing the railroads that stepped in.
Flintlock76 BaltACD Tax the rain! Don't laugh, New Jersey's proposed just that! Has something to do with driveways and parking lots adding to the run-off in streams and rivers. Or something. Anyway, I wonder if there's an "amusement tax" on this? Wouldn't surprise me, NJ taxes just about everything else. Looks like a nice ride! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKnLRH1RuYY
Maryland with O'Malley did it, when Hogan became Govenor it was repealed.
Overmod, as I understand it the NYS&W Technical and Historical Society is kind of a loose organization, for lack of a better term. I just checked their website and it looks like it hasn't been updated in quite a while. Maybe they don't know any computer savvy teenagers?
I think the running of the "Pumpkin Train" may be more the doing of these folks...
www.prrh.org That's the Phillipsburg Rail Road Historians.
And on that "Toys For Tots" train torpedoed by Amtrak last year? As I remember the Norfolk-Southern and some New York regional shortlines stepped up to the plate and ran it, leaving Amtrak with considerable egg on its face.
Here's a video you and others might enjoy, it's a Susquehanna sponsored "Toys For Tots" train from several years ago. It runs from Ridgefield Park through the "wilds" of North Jersey. I don't mind the background music but some find it annoying, so be forewarned. Great video, though!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHIJBAP9l_I
Flintlock76I think the running of the "Pumpkin Train" may be more the doing of these folks... www.prrh.org That's the Phillipsburg Rail Road Historians.
The only "Pumpkin Train" out of Phillipsburg that I know is this one:
https://877trainride.com/pumpkintrain.htm
and that's the one that's a 'joint effort' between the NYS&W T&HS and the "Black River System".
PRRH has some model train excursion action, and some Santa trains lined up, but I don't see anything else for them this year.
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