Re: slump
It wasn’t so long ago the news was about serious truck driver shortages.
Into awareness...insanity definition
Most were passed before the crash, at least in the states.
Euclid York1 Euclid As to China, it's their country. They get to have the laws they want. It you want to manufacture in their country, they make the rules. Exactly. Since we don't like their cheating, our country is doing what is in its power to stop American purchases from their manufacturers. I understand you don't like that. Euclid So what do we do to prevent China from becoming number one? Somebody has got to be number one. There will always be a number one. This is not about who is number one. This is about free trade. When one country cheats, the exchange is no longer considered free trade. Yes, tariffs are bad. They cost money. They cause economic problems. But sometimes, it's necessary to take steps that hurt in the short range to cure long-range problems. It's about protecting our country, our property, and our citizens' quality of life and way of life. I think you misunderstand me. I wish all our products were made in the U.S. and none made in China. I don't want to buy anything made in China unless I have to, and I make a big effort to not buy Chinese made products. I find defects in nearly every mechanical product made in China. I am willing to pay more for better quality than what comes from China, but a lot, if not most people want the cheapest price, and they also don't realize that the quality varies with price. So our country has a huge market demand for Chinese products because they shop by price only. Not only does this market crowd out the availability of higher quality domestic made products; but it is also having another effect that I think is even more troubling. That is that the high demand for Chinese products has educated our U.S. marketing that our market wants lowest price even if it means a sacrifice in quality. It was not long ago that U.S. marketing thought they could compete with China by offering higher quality to a large domestic market that demanded higher quality than what China offers. But the demand for Chinese products has proven the U.S. marketing assumption wrong. The market for higher quality products in the U.S. is far smaller than our marketing believed. So they are on a race to the bottom almost with a vengeance to show U.S. consumers that U.S. manufacturing can out-cheapen China. I think this spells the end of an reasonable degree of quality in products no matter who makes them. This is becoming very obvious with products like home appliances. So, being that I don't want Chinese products, I don't care if you legally ban their import. That would raise the price of products in this country, but that is the market I prefer. So ban Chinese products and bring all the jobs back. But we are not going to ban Chinese products. We are going to punish China by damaging their country by reducing their imports to us by the use of tariffs. You say it is about protecting our country. But using tariffs will damge our country as well as China. That it the part I object to. It will slow down our economy besides slowing down the economy of China. Only one person says it won't hurt us at all, and that is Peter Navarro. But in my opinion, he wants to believe that because he is blinded by his ideological hatred of China. You say you don't mind if it hurts in the short range if it helps in the long range. I believe this tariff action is far more radical than most people realize. I think it is doing tremendous damage to China and to the U.S., but the big effects of big actions take some time to manifest, and that manifestation is only now just beginning after over a year of tariffs and threats to destroy China's economy. So people are being lulled into the belief that we are getting even with China, but they don't realize that we are shooting ourselves in the foot. Sure, it if only hurts a little in the short range and provides a major benefit in the long range, fine. But, believe it is quite possible that it will be painless in the short range and cause tremendous damage in the long range to the whole world economy and especially to our country and to China. So, that's what I am saying. What benefit do you expect the tariffs will bring to us? What will change and how? Do you think China will decide to buy as much from us as we buy from them? Do you think they will promise not steal our intellectual property. This kind of reaction seems to be what is expected by our Administration. Navarro says we will ramp up tariffs until China stops committing the Seven Deadly Sins. How do you see the tariffs curing long range problems?
York1
Exactly. Since we don't like their cheating, our country is doing what is in its power to stop American purchases from their manufacturers. I understand you don't like that.
This is not about who is number one. This is about free trade. When one country cheats, the exchange is no longer considered free trade.
Yes, tariffs are bad. They cost money. They cause economic problems. But sometimes, it's necessary to take steps that hurt in the short range to cure long-range problems.
It's about protecting our country, our property, and our citizens' quality of life and way of life.
I think you misunderstand me. I wish all our products were made in the U.S. and none made in China. I don't want to buy anything made in China unless I have to, and I make a big effort to not buy Chinese made products. I find defects in nearly every mechanical product made in China. I am willing to pay more for better quality than what comes from China, but a lot, if not most people want the cheapest price, and they also don't realize that the quality varies with price. So our country has a huge market demand for Chinese products because they shop by price only.
Not only does this market crowd out the availability of higher quality domestic made products; but it is also having another effect that I think is even more troubling. That is that the high demand for Chinese products has educated our U.S. marketing that our market wants lowest price even if it means a sacrifice in quality.
It was not long ago that U.S. marketing thought they could compete with China by offering higher quality to a large domestic market that demanded higher quality than what China offers. But the demand for Chinese products has proven the U.S. marketing assumption wrong. The market for higher quality products in the U.S. is far smaller than our marketing believed. So they are on a race to the bottom almost with a vengeance to show U.S. consumers that U.S. manufacturing can out-cheapen China. I think this spells the end of an reasonable degree of quality in products no matter who makes them. This is becoming very obvious with products like home appliances.
So, being that I don't want Chinese products, I don't care if you legally ban their import. That would raise the price of products in this country, but that is the market I prefer. So ban Chinese products and bring all the jobs back.
But we are not going to ban Chinese products. We are going to punish China by damaging their country by reducing their imports to us by the use of tariffs. You say it is about protecting our country. But using tariffs will damge our country as well as China. That it the part I object to. It will slow down our economy besides slowing down the economy of China. Only one person says it won't hurt us at all, and that is Peter Navarro. But in my opinion, he wants to believe that because he is blinded by his ideological hatred of China.
You say you don't mind if it hurts in the short range if it helps in the long range. I believe this tariff action is far more radical than most people realize. I think it is doing tremendous damage to China and to the U.S., but the big effects of big actions take some time to manifest, and that manifestation is only now just beginning after over a year of tariffs and threats to destroy China's economy. So people are being lulled into the belief that we are getting even with China, but they don't realize that we are shooting ourselves in the foot.
Sure, it if only hurts a little in the short range and provides a major benefit in the long range, fine. But, believe it is quite possible that it will be painless in the short range and cause tremendous damage in the long range to the whole world economy and especially to our country and to China. So, that's what I am saying.
What benefit do you expect the tariffs will bring to us? What will change and how? Do you think China will decide to buy as much from us as we buy from them? Do you think they will promise not steal our intellectual property. This kind of reaction seems to be what is expected by our Administration. Navarro says we will ramp up tariffs until China stops committing the Seven Deadly Sins. How do you see the tariffs curing long range problems?
Well said. It's all well and good, in principle, to want to level the playing field for U.S. businesses in China -- but as always, it's as much about the execution of the idea as it is about the idea itself. In this case, the notion that the dictatorship in China is going to capitulate to the U.S. because the tariffs are causing some hardships for their citizens is pure folly. As I have said before, the most likely scenario is that China makes some symbolic concessions on trade--without addressing the core issues, intellectual property theft and state-owned corporations, at all--and both sides spin it as a win.
By the way, I note with some amusement that the first recourse of those who support the trade war is always some version of "the Dems like tariffs too!" That's certainly true, but it's also completely irrelevant to any argument on the merits of current trade policy. It's yet another manifestation of the current political environment wherein if you disagree with someone, by definition you must be a rabid extremist on the other side of the spectrum.
York1 Euclid Here is some news on White House Trade Advisor, Peter Navarro. This guy is on the fringe with radical views based not so much on economics, but rather on a deep seated vengeance toward China. In 2016, President Obama's administration instituted 266% tariffs on Chinese cold rolled steel, and Peter Navarro had nothing to do with it. Were you upset then? Euclid You make it sound like they are on a quest for forceful world conquest. I'm not sure that's so far-fetched. Xi Jinping vowed to make the Chinese military the number one modern military by 2035. Euclid It is called competition and they are successful competitors. You call it competition. I call it cheating. Last year, Microsoft's former CEO Ballmer said that Chinese theft of Microsoft products cost the company $10 billion. This was not just some Chinese citizens using unlicensed Windows. 90% of Chinese companies were using Microsoft Windows, but only 1% paid for it. This is piracy encouraged by the government through lax and unenforced laws.
Euclid Here is some news on White House Trade Advisor, Peter Navarro. This guy is on the fringe with radical views based not so much on economics, but rather on a deep seated vengeance toward China.
In 2016, President Obama's administration instituted 266% tariffs on Chinese cold rolled steel, and Peter Navarro had nothing to do with it. Were you upset then?
Euclid You make it sound like they are on a quest for forceful world conquest.
I'm not sure that's so far-fetched. Xi Jinping vowed to make the Chinese military the number one modern military by 2035.
Euclid It is called competition and they are successful competitors.
You call it competition. I call it cheating. Last year, Microsoft's former CEO Ballmer said that Chinese theft of Microsoft products cost the company $10 billion. This was not just some Chinese citizens using unlicensed Windows. 90% of Chinese companies were using Microsoft Windows, but only 1% paid for it. This is piracy encouraged by the government through lax and unenforced laws.
100% true. So how is the current trade war going to stop that?
People say they want free trade, but it has to be fair trade. The problem is that they tend to be mutually exclusive. In a free trade scenario, there is no "level playing field" except for the actual laws that govern it. Otherwise, a level playing field is only an unobtainable wish that is part of so-called "fair" trade. In that sense, a level playing field is one of the dreams of utopianism.
Just competition alone makes the playing field unlevel. The whole underlying principle of China joining the World Trade Organization was based on "free trade." The benefit of free trade is that the producer who produces the best product at the lowest cost, gets the job. So there are winners and losers.
Now, free/fair is not quite so black and white. Some would say that the competition of free trade is fair with a level playing field unless one side cheats. That is how it fits into the sports analogy of playing fields.
But generally, the way this analogy is being applied to world trade, the complaint about the playing field being unlevel is sour grapes about losing the game as it is played by the rules. This sour grapes is what is behind Peter Navarro's Seven Deadly Sins that China is committing. These are ginned up by Navarro to explain why China is out-competing up. These sins are what Navarro cites as China cheating and making the playing field unlevel. On the face of it, he is not saying that their victory in pure business competition is cheating. But he also does not credit that honest performance as being the reason why China is winning the game. Instead, he attributes their win to cheating.
Nobody wants to lose their job to a competitor, and in their bitterness, they will complain that their competitor cheated. That is the Navarro view. The real reason why China out-competes us is that they have a lower standard of living; so they have less overhead cost. Once instant communication and automation arrived, China could come into the competition with their lower overhead and win every time.
So we lost jobs to China. But that does provide the lowest cost products that everyone loves. And that is the perfect fulfillment of the promise of "free trade." And it is also the reason why we buy a lot more from China than they buy from us. Yet that fact alone is cited by Navarro and our Administration as being a crime by China. This is the complaint of a bitter loser-- look at the imbalance of trade and call it unfair.
The U.S. is a big player and we have a lot of power in the world. And now we have adopted the bitter loser role with a vow to get even with China because all of our woes are their fault for cheating us in trade. Can you see how unstable and dangerous this is?
Navarro is a smart guy with very strong opinions. He is a street fighter in debate. He wrote some books that got him selected for this job as World Trade Advisor. He sees us in a war with China, which has been the theme of his writing going back years. This is the fulfillment of his life dream. But watch him debate. Watch how he takes the argument down a rabbit hole of technical jargon that has no clear meaning, but only serves to intimidate his debate opponent. Watch how he always resorts to anger and bitterness to further the intimidation.
Euclid Here is some news on White House Trade Advisor, Peter Navarro. This guy is on the fringe with radical views based not so much on economics, but rather on a deep seated vengeance toward China. He is on lifetime mission to even the score with China. He cites his "Seven Deadly Sins" of China and demands their repentance or he will destroy their economy with his weapon of import tariffs. He lives in a fantasy land where he can destroy China's economy in order to bring utopianism to the U.S. https://reason.com/2019/10/17/trumps-anti-china-trade-advisor-invented-a-fake-economist-to-sell-his-protectionist-trade-views/ He is in complete denial in believing his destruction of China can occur in a vacuum with no effect on us.
Here is some news on White House Trade Advisor, Peter Navarro. This guy is on the fringe with radical views based not so much on economics, but rather on a deep seated vengeance toward China. He is on lifetime mission to even the score with China. He cites his "Seven Deadly Sins" of China and demands their repentance or he will destroy their economy with his weapon of import tariffs. He lives in a fantasy land where he can destroy China's economy in order to bring utopianism to the U.S.
https://reason.com/2019/10/17/trumps-anti-china-trade-advisor-invented-a-fake-economist-to-sell-his-protectionist-trade-views/
He is in complete denial in believing his destruction of China can occur in a vacuum with no effect on us.
More than denial I’d say. China National Railways has posted double digit gains in rail traffic throughout the last 3 quarters. While we are nearing double digit retraction by the latest AAR report... So these tariffs are hurting who now? Perhaps it’s time we quit being a country of buck passers and realize we have problems that we created or helped create to stagnate our nations well being..
SD60MAC9500 Euclid Here is some news on White House Trade Advisor, Peter Navarro. This guy is on the fringe with radical views based not so much on economics, but rather on a deep seated vengeance toward China. He is on lifetime mission to even the score with China. He cites his "Seven Deadly Sins" of China and demands their repentance or he will destroy their economy with his weapon of import tariffs. He lives in a fantasy land where he can destroy China's economy in order to bring utopianism to the U.S. https://reason.com/2019/10/17/trumps-anti-china-trade-advisor-invented-a-fake-economist-to-sell-his-protectionist-trade-views/ He is in complete denial in believing his destruction of China can occur in a vacuum with no effect on us. More than denial I’d say. China National Railways has posted double digit gains in rail traffic throughout the last 3 quarters. While we are nearing double digit retraction by the latest AAR report... So these tariffs are hurting who now? Perhaps it’s time we quit being a country of buck passers and realize we have problems that we created or helped create to stagnate our nations well being..
Yes, it may very well turn out that Navarro's attack on China backfires on us. There is something inherently dangerous about a proud, stubborn, and arrogant man claiming that we cannot be harmed because we have righteousness on our side. Just when you think nothing can go wrong, there goes the Titanic.
China may have the strength to weather this storm. And the storm will also hurt us as Navarro assures us that is impossible. Our squeeze on China will force their manufacturing to leave to seek non-tariffed producers such as Taiwan. I have read opinions that claim that China losing this lowest tier of manufacturing, that is, the cheapest consumer goods, will make way for them to step up to the next higher tier of manufacturing, which will be more valuable industrial products. Those are what's left of the products we used to manufacture before this outsourcing began. So overall, Navarro's punishment of China may only make them stronger and make us weaker.
Euclid SD60MAC9500 Euclid Here is some news on White House Trade Advisor, Peter Navarro. This guy is on the fringe with radical views based not so much on economics, but rather on a deep seated vengeance toward China. He is on lifetime mission to even the score with China. He cites his "Seven Deadly Sins" of China and demands their repentance or he will destroy their economy with his weapon of import tariffs. He lives in a fantasy land where he can destroy China's economy in order to bring utopianism to the U.S. https://reason.com/2019/10/17/trumps-anti-china-trade-advisor-invented-a-fake-economist-to-sell-his-protectionist-trade-views/ He is in complete denial in believing his destruction of China can occur in a vacuum with no effect on us. More than denial I’d say. China National Railways has posted double digit gains in rail traffic throughout the last 3 quarters. While we are nearing double digit retraction by the latest AAR report... So these tariffs are hurting who now? Perhaps it’s time we quit being a country of buck passers and realize we have problems that we created or helped create to stagnate our nations well being.. Yes, it may very well turn out that Navarro's attack on China backfires on us. There is something inherently dangerous about a proud, stubborn, and arrogant man claiming that we cannot be harmed because we have righteousness on our side. Just when you think nothing can go wrong, there goes the Titanic. China may have the strength to weather this storm. And the storm will also hurt us as Navarro assures us that is impossible. Our squeeze on China will force their manufacturing to leave to seek non-tariffed producers such as Taiwan. I have read opinions that claim that China losing this lowest tier of manufacturing, that is, the cheapest consumer goods, will make way for them to step up to the next higher tier of manufacturing, which will be more valuable industrial products. Those are what's left of the products we used to manufacture before this outsourcing began. So overall, Navarro's punishment of China may only make them stronger and make us weaker.
Fake news and alternative facts I say!
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70DudeFake news and alternative facts I say!
What is?
Euclid SD70Dude Fake news and alternative facts I say! What is?
SD70Dude Fake news and alternative facts I say!
Your critique of Navarro. My tongue is firmly planted in my cheek!
There’s that saying about knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing. I hope enough people realize what the leadership of China is.
Well stated Gramp. I like that!
Just to reinterate, my previous post " well it is fast becoming apparent that the West will have to choose between Chinese money or a marketplace of free thinking ideas.
It is the Chinese that are driving that, not the USA or the West.
GrampI hope enough people realize what the leadership of China is.
War is comming in my view. China knows it and is getting ready.
SD70DudeSo overall, Navarro's punishment of China may only make them stronger and make us weaker.
Reads like they are getting stronger too.......NOT
https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3018991/chinas-total-debt-rises-over-300-cent-gdp-beijing-loosens
Kind of interesting a country growing at over 6% a year would need to borrow so much money. While the stats in the article might be inflated, Chinese debt is rapidly growing, you can Google and see there is no dispute with that. If you buy into their growth stats, there is the question of where all this borrowed money is being spent? Unless of course it is all smoke and mirrors.
A lot of their infrastructure money is wasted on shabbily built projects that fall apart in a few years to a decade timeframe. Have you looked at any of the youtube videos from Americans and other ex-patriots living in China. Suggest you take a little time and do so. We are not talking just a few hundred million mispent we are at least talking tens of billions mispent with whole cities built new but completely vacant of people. High Speed Trains with little or no patronage, etc. No doubt China does not like this information to leak out and has it's share of cheer leaders in the Western Press. Go look at youtube from Americans that live there and see it first hand.
The entire notion that Communists manage economies well and spend government monies well has never, and I mean never, been demonstrated on planet Earth. Except we are led to believe by our media that the Chinese Communist Party is different from all the rest. You can buy into that line if you want. I will listen to Americans that live in the country and report back on what they see. They won't be there much longer as Chairman Xi is booting out as much foriegners as he can. Moving to a wartime footing with increasing propaganda and shut out of the Western press.....harrassing ex-patriots that live there now to get them to leave.
CMStPnP SD70Dude So overall, Navarro's punishment of China may only make them stronger and make us weaker. Reads like they are getting stronger too.......NOT https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3018991/chinas-total-debt-rises-over-300-cent-gdp-beijing-loosens Kind of interesting a country growing at over 6% a year would need to borrow so much money. While the stats in the article might be inflated, Chinese debt is rapidly growing, you can Google and see there is no dispute with that. If you buy into their growth stats, there is the question of where all this borrowed money is being spent? Unless of course it is all smoke and mirrors. A lot of their infrastructure money is wasted on shabbily built projects that fall apart in a few years to a decade timeframe. Have you looked at any of the youtube videos from Americans and other ex-patriots living in China. Suggest you take a little time and do so. We are not talking just a few hundred million mispent we are at least talking tens of billions mispent with whole cities built new but completely vacant of people. High Speed Trains with little or no patronage, etc. No doubt China does not like this information to leak out and has it's share of cheer leaders in the Western Press. Go look at youtube from Americans that live there and see it first hand. The entire notion that Communists manage economies well and spend government monies well has never, and I mean never, been demonstrated on planet Earth. Except we are led to believe by our media that the Chinese Communist Party is different from all the rest. You can buy into that line if you want. I will listen to Americans that live in the country and report back on what they see. They won't be there much longer as Chairman Xi is booting out as much foriegners as he can. Moving to a wartime footing with increasing propaganda and shut out of the Western press.....harrassing ex-patriots that live there now to get them to leave.
SD70Dude So overall, Navarro's punishment of China may only make them stronger and make us weaker.
I think there was some cause to admire the CCP's way of doing things (in a purely economic sense) when they had more-or-less technocratic governments that changed every 5 years. But human nature kicked in and the inevitable happened: Xi has made himself president for life. We're already seeing the megalomania, hubris, cult of personality and other excesses that inevitably accompany such things. Now, all bets are off, especially since China is facing demographic issues and has already picked the low-hanging economic fruit.
The time of reckoning will come for China, but it's not the trade war that will bring it on, and it's not going to happen in the next decade.
What you quoted above is from my comment, not a comment by SD70Dude. You are interpreting it as though I said it is a current trend. Actually, in context, it shows that I was referring to a long term outcome of the trade war, and the outcome has not begun yet in any measurable way. It certainly does not indicate that China is well managed or has a good economy at this time as you suggest the comment means.
In context, what I said was that the trade war will hurt both us and China. If we are being lied to about anything, it is the claim that the tariffs will not hurt us at all, and are only a free windfall for us as though we are directly taxing China as punishment. That is pure "Tooth Fairy." It is a perpetual motion machine.
I went on to suggest that while the tariffs will hurt us as well as China, China may be in a position to take the beating better than we will. I said I have read analysts say that the tariffs force manufacturers to move production out of China and to non-tariff countries. While on the face of it, the loss of manufacturing will hurt China, it may open the door for them to begin a new phase of manufacturing of higher value, industrial components, which will further compete with us at a higher level.
As this happens, we may find we are in a deep and prolonged recession after believing only one man who led us into this economic morass while telling us it won't have any effect on our country.
Let me get this straight. If a thread contains discussion of antique aircraft the moderators swing into action. But if specifically-forbidden political content drones on for page after page, the moderators nap?
Most of your regurgitated remarks about China are about as accurate as your erroneous term 'ex-patriots' [former members of the NFL team? ]. The word is, of course, 'expatriates' as most folks other than you know quite well.
Lithonia Operator Let me get this straight. If a thread contains discussion of antique aircraft the moderators swing into action. But if specifically-forbidden political content drones on for page after page, the moderators nap?
I believe one of the biggest factors related to the downturn is our trade war. Is discussion about trade wars political? Is discussion about the politicians in favor of Amtrak political?
I would say there is occassionally discussion that crosses the line of the rule on political discussion. But I do not know exactly where that line is drawn. How about the discussion about the amusement tax in Jim Thorpe? Is that political? How about land grants or locomotive color schemes? Political?
Euclid The discussion was established to talk about an economic downturn. Is that political? I believe one of the biggest factors related to the downturn is our trade war. Is discussion about trade wars political? Is discussion about the politicians in favor of Amtrak political? I would say there is occassionally discussion that crosses the line of the rule on political discussion. But I do not know exactly where that line is drawn. How about the discussion about the amusement tax in Jim Thorpe? Is that political? How about land grants or locomotive color schemes? Political?
Apparently that is the case. Of course we know a certain member complained about the antique aircraft thread and that was why the moderator acted.
EuclidI would say there is occasionally discussion that crosses the line of the rule on political discussion. But I do not know exactly where that line is drawn. How about the discussion about the amusement tax in Jim Thorpe? Is that political? How about land grants or locomotive color schemes? Political?
The line is drawn where the moderator du jour chooses to draw it; a bit like the adage about the 'golden rule'. If you need guidance above what has been provided in advisory posts from the moderation staff or in the revisions to the TOS, you will have to ask one or more of the moderators, either via PM or directly.
I understand the proscription on 'political arguments' to be about a continuation of either acrimonious or doctrinaire views that potentially cause discord rather than just disagreement of opinion. That they be 'railroad-related' is a different TOS condition (and things like the 'warbird' thread are, as noted, going to be flagged if even once 'complained about' whether or not well-patronized or tolerated by others in the subject community).
As we've noted a number of times, discussing Amtrak (or one of the regional commuter authorities) is implicitly political, because so much of the subjects are intimately involved with political issues or priorities or action. I would argue that this might involve strong opinion, or even ridiculously doctrinaire opinion, as long as it focuses on something with railroad applicability -- and does not disintegrate into purely doctrinaire arguments about political theory or ad hominem disparagement of someone simply because they hold or express an opinion. Facts should be addressed with facts, not handwaved with reference to ideology or whatever, and in any good argument they would be. (And that applies to public figures as well as other posters, even if the recent 'dimwit' discussion produced no PM "advice" from the moderators.)
Jim Thorpe is political because a political body is involved, acting for political reasons, and legitimately rail-related details are present. Where the problem begins to creep in is in, say, going beyond discussing the application of amusement tax to LG&N retroactively to question the parentage or intelligence of people on the forum who may disagree.
Land grants were a political issue, as were the subsequent efforts by the Government to get benefits from them, certainly including the rather clever attempt -- which I think was successful -- by the ODT to 'cobble up' a fake north-south 'common carrier route' including the maximum number of land-grant miles and then demand a pro-rata discount on freight sent by any alternate route serving the same destination pairs (this was described in the 'Frimbo' and Ball book on the great decade of the trains). I don't see any way this isn't going to remain controversial here, nor do I expect anyone to be particularly swayed by argument or discussion, but that in itself is no reason for a 'railroad-related' discussion to be moderated away. Except if it becomes the same sort of lightning rod that Mr. Schmidt has said posts about 'graffiti' and 'hoboes' are -- subjects that are no less 'railroad-related' than politics potentially affecting rail traffic or Amtrak amenity changes. I'm sure that if moderators disapprove of land-grant posts, they'll either send PMs or put warnings in threads appropriately ... or add particular timeless topics to that list of banned subjects in the revised TOS.
Discussion of the trade war as it influences, or might influence, rail traffic or other rail concerns would be appropriate -- and that includes the tolerance of other opinions and beliefs when fairly expressed. I don't think that involves either trolling or 'happily ganging up on a particular member', though, not that I claim to be innocent of some of that behavior in the past.
Locomotive color schemes become controversial, somewhat unexpectedly so, when needless political discussions either frowned upon by Kalmbach 'staff members' or brought to their attention through reader complaints are involved. As I was party to at least one of these, I will not further comment other than to add that it is wise to avoid purely political things and stick to historical or aesthetic concerns in those sorts of thread.
(I'm tempted to add that we need an 'official' moderation opinion on grammar threads (or grammatically-centered thread drifts) ... but that's not the same as explicitly political concerns.)
The cat owner's post was blatantly poltical. It was chock full of inaccurate negative stereotyping of liberals and their views. It was rah-rah Trump.
And it turned the thread in a less friendly environment.
Trump is great at making himself and his cronies richer. Other than that, his only talent is making ill-informed people angry, while creating ugly division in this country.
See? The other side can do this too.
But is this where we want a thread about freight carloadings to go?
Politics and religion should be strictly avoided. Close to the line is roughly the same as over the line, as it stirs up the same discord.
I think most of us here just want to talk about railroads; and if we cannot police ourselves, then the moderators need to do their job.
WELL SAID.
Lithonia OperatorThe cat owner's post was blatantly poltical. It was chock full of inaccurate negative stereotyping of liberals and their views. It was rah-rah Trump. And it turned the thread in a less friendly environment.
The thread was less friendly from almost the beginning. These were comments before Shadow the Cats owner posted any comment:
charlie hebdoJust like our chaotic foreign policy, it's a chaotic economic policy based on lunatic theories and tweets. And uncertainties are bad in both arenas.
PsychotI agree that the alternatives to Trump aren’t great, but at this point, I’ll take anyone who isn’t a narcissistic, thin-skinned igoramus who governs by Tweet.
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."
York: You consider my comment unfriendly? It's an opinion as to why rail carloadings are slumping. Sorry if it offends you.
York1, I have to admit that you have a point there. I was only remembering the post that most stuck in my craw, not the ones that reinforce my own beliefs.
Which in some ways is an excellent illustration of the state of our divisions.
Can we all please just try to keep politics out of these threads. I quit doing Facebook 100% because there was so much politics, and I inevitably would get sucked in. My opinions on this stuff are very strong. And I know that others feel just as strongly the other way. Nobody is going to convert anyone, let's face it.
So let's just stick to trains.
(BTW, born in New Orleans, I'm a Saints fan too!)
charlie hebdoYork: You consider my comment unfriendly? It's an opinion as to why rail carloadings are slumping. Sorry if it offends you.
Apology accepted.
Well I’m sure I’ll upset someone, but I for one enjoy the heck out of these types of discussions, regardless of tempers. Great points and perspectives from every angle. True or false? Great justifications for most of them. Just depends on perspective. And I really enjoy the comments from Shadow the Cats Owner simply because we have a trucking staffer who keeps providing great insights into what it looks like from another side of the table. Politics? So what, I think we’re all big boys and girls. Keep posting!
Discussions of what is and is not working in railroading, and freight transportation in general, and logistics/supply chains, however one wants to frame it, at some point become a political discussion. Railroading grew from a great idea into a powerful industry that helped turn the US into a world power partly because it was a great new technology, and IMHO to a larger extent due to corruption at all levels and swindling to an extraordinary degree. Land grants made something economically feasible and enticing and attractive to risk-takers. And the benefits were huge, again IMHO. However, that may not be the narrative that a Native American would support. It depends on perspective, to one degree or another.
The transportation advances that gave us paved roads and rubber tires were incredible. And yet the politics of it, how things are financed, how costs are hidden/buried/misallocated, have also had profound impacts. My perspective is that it has given us weakened railroads in an ongoing slide of market share for non-bulk traffic, created a management culture of being risk-averse and stymied creativity and innovation other than generally-proven technologies. I have my ideas – political – on what it takes to fix that. In fact, they are very political and highly charged and evoke all kinds of support and condemnation.
Yee-haw!
Lithonia OperatorSo let's just stick to trains.
So why do you think rail carloadings are continuing to slump?
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