Even our #4960 steam trips had a pilot when they strayed from Q tracks. For Mexico, MO we had Wabash pilot on the head end. They also filled the tender with water pumpers from local FD. Later she started bringing along her own water tender.
Deggesty Jeff, does the robot caller need an upgrade so it will not call an unqualified engineer or conductor to take a certain train?
Jeff, does the robot caller need an upgrade so it will not call an unqualified engineer or conductor to take a certain train?
Part of the problem is the callers not watching what the robot is doing. When the extra board is exhausted, there are procedures that should be followed. Some, because of territory, need specificly qualified/familiar crewmembers. Others, like filling in a yard engine vacancy are more flexible. If no extra board, they are supposed to offer it to the senior rested pool engineer. He can reject it, so they go to the next senior engineer and so on. Sometimes they just let the robot handle it. Our pools are numbered re33 (west) re34 (east) re35 (north/south) respectively. The robot on it's own, seems to go to the 33 pool first. Then they try to force you to the job if you answer. I don't care to work the yard engine. If I'm not first out (or first available) I don't answer the phone when I expect it to be a caller/robot looking for someone to work off assignment.
Jeff
SD70Dude Glad to know I'm not the only person to call the automated caller "the robot". In conversation with our crew callers I have learned that CN's has a bad habit of placing crews on duty in the computer system without actually phoning them. Maybe it has been fixed now, but the crew callers were having to watch it like hawks. We normally only get told our on-duty and off-duty locations when we are called. On a turn they are supposed to tell you the turnaround point at the time of call, but usually don't. That part doesn't matter as much, and will often have changed by the time you go on duty anyway.
Glad to know I'm not the only person to call the automated caller "the robot".
In conversation with our crew callers I have learned that CN's has a bad habit of placing crews on duty in the computer system without actually phoning them. Maybe it has been fixed now, but the crew callers were having to watch it like hawks.
We normally only get told our on-duty and off-duty locations when we are called. On a turn they are supposed to tell you the turnaround point at the time of call, but usually don't. That part doesn't matter as much, and will often have changed by the time you go on duty anyway.
When it was new, the robot had a bad habit of putting someone on duty and not actually calling (phone) them. I've called the AVR (the robot) to get put on duty after seeing that the robot hadn't called me after seeing the train prompted on the website.
Our information is Job/Train ID, On Duty time, origin and destination station numbers, and potential conductor/foreman. It doesn't say anything about trainees (engine or train) or brakeman/switchmen. If you're the trainee, it says the conductor for trainmen trainees, the engineer for engineer trainees.
Other than on duty time, all is subject to change. Once in a while you get changed from a less desirable train to a better one. Usually it's the other way around.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Johnny
About a year ago, I was called to go dog catch an ethanol train off my normal West Pool assignment. Our calls are usually made by the 'robot' which gives a few details, one being where you start and end. Since I was starting and ending in my home terminal, I knew it was a dog catch. I also knew the extra board was exhausted, which was why I was being called. I took the call, knowing they needed someone familiar with the west end.
Upon arriving at the yard office and looking at the train summary, I realized they were going to want me to go out west to Grand Jct IA, pick up the train and take it though to Des Moines, east and south of my home terminal. I hadn't worked those lines in a few years and was no longer familiar with them. (The difference between being qualified and familiar with a territory are technicalities, but something that is pertinent in our neck of the woods.) I immediately called the dispatcher. He asked why I took the call. I told him, with the limited info, I assumed I would go out west and bring the train in for another crew. The extra board can run through and are familiar with the routes involved. Going west was no problem, going east-and then south-I needed a pilot. He asked if I could at least go over to Nevada and get a different train. No, I'm no longer familiar with that part of the territory. If something happens, it's on me. The dispatcher said to call the corridor manager. I did and left a message. About this time the conductor, who I also had told about this problem, comes back and said, "They've found you a pilot." They took the last extra board engineer who had been called to take a double stack train to Clinton IA off that and made him my pilot. They recalled the next available East Pool engineer to take that train. That East Pool guy happened to be my union local chairman. I had already called him, if nothing else to tell him if I was doing this, I was being forced to do so. He understood and said they can do that. He also said one trip did not make me familiar with a territory. If they did this again, I would still need to call for a pilot.
To help us, Me the Pilot engineer and conductor, the dispatcher decided to bring the train in from Grand Jct to our home terminal. There were North/South pool crews available. What they normally do, and should've done, is brought the train in and recalled it with the proper pool crew. They were trying to save money. So off we went to Des Moines. We were stopped for quite a while north of there to get in. Once in and changed out, we had to wait for a van to take us back home. No van had been called. I was on duty about 13 hours, 5 of which were overtime, that day.
While I was off assignment, my turn left town when a rested extra board engineer became available. This happens often, and when it does we can claim the wages the turn makes in our absence. It's called a 'make whole' and they pay what the turn made minus what you made working off assignment. Since I made all that overtime and my turn had deadheaded out, they only had to make whole a lot less than they normally do.
A week later, I get called for an auto rack train. The origin and destination is again my home terminal, with a 'continuation to Clinton'. I have no idea what that means. We have an option that puts us through to an actual human caller. I told her I was a West Pool engineer and couldn't go to Clinton without a pilot. She says she'll take me off the job. A few minutes later, she calls back and says they just want me to dog catch this train, a long pool train, out west and bring it in to my home terminal where they'll put an East Pool crew on it. I say I can do that.
I get to the yard office amid a computer outage, which also takes out the company phone system. We couldn't get paperwork or information on the train. Everything is down for about 3 hours. When it's back up, by that time the train had arrived in my home terminal. They didn't call an outbound East Pool crew and I was again saying I needed a pilot if they actually were going to make me take it. This time they didn't. They called an East Pool crew. I tied up with a 'call and release', was paid for the hours on duty and went back to my position on my board for 10 hours rest.
tree68There is another time when a train may need a pilot:
And this after I worked so hard to resist the temptation to mention Jean Bertin!
A little 'less unseriously', we might remember the pilot's-license quip in one of the 'alleged T1 high speed run' stories. And the intentional and proud use of (open-cockpit style) pilot's goggles by a 'Locomotivfuehrer' of the German 05s and other streamlined classes in the Thirties...
Convicted One Well, I've always pictured such an arrangement as the visiting engineer at the controls, while the pilot mentors over his shoulder......but just looking at all the static about reduced crew size and expense control makes me wonder if the RR is willing to pay two engineers for the same miles? I'll bet those host road engineers are thrilled by a little "throttle time" when groups like 765 take their act on the road, but that really is a special situation and falls a little outside the scope of my interest.
Well, I've always pictured such an arrangement as the visiting engineer at the controls, while the pilot mentors over his shoulder......but just looking at all the static about reduced crew size and expense control makes me wonder if the RR is willing to pay two engineers for the same miles?
I'll bet those host road engineers are thrilled by a little "throttle time" when groups like 765 take their act on the road, but that really is a special situation and falls a little outside the scope of my interest.
The visiting railroad will be footing the bill for the whole cost of crews involved. The visiting railroad of course pays for it's own crew. They will also pay for the pilot crew/engineer. The host railroad is going to charge, and I'm sure it's more than just what the engineer/crew is normally paid. The visiting railroad really has no choice. If it wants it's train to detour and doesn't have an engineer qualified on the move, it has to pay the price.
When we've had planned detours over other railroads in the past-CN, IAIS, CPRS(DM&E)-we usually have our own people pilot our trains. What they would do is set up a pilot pool who become qualifed and familiar with the foriegn territory. They would then pilot our crews over that territory. One time on the CN, once a regular engineer had two trips, they would not even call a pilot for them. These types of detours are usually for planned work events like heavy trackwork or closures due to flooding.
When Amtrak has detoured over us, the train is usually handled by our crew, a engineer and conductor. The Amtrak conductor is back on the train. The Amtrak engineer can ride on the engine or back on the cars. I've had a few, but only once did the Amtrak engineer ride the engine with us.
On some long detour moves, over multiple crew districts, the visiting railroad might not even have a crew. They just turn the train over to the host at Point A and receive it at Point B. The host using their own crew to move it. It depends on the length of the move and the volume. Does the host have enough engineers or crews to pilot or operate detour moves of another railroad? There's been times when railroad A can only take so many detours a day from railroad B. There just aren't enough people available.
There is another time when a train may need a pilot:
From the NYO&W Historical Association website:
On the dark rainy night of Sept. 27, 1955 train ON-2 rumbled into Hamilton, N.Y., as it had done so many times before. Engineer Les Vidler had FT 803 on a 50-car train that night and was making about 34 mph when he--or someone else in the cab-- noticed that a mainline facing- point switch was set for a siding leading up to Leland's coal trestle. The
engineer quickly applied the brakes,but the momentum was enough to push the train up the siding, through the coal-shed doors and the barnlike structure and out the opposite end. After the noise ended and debris settled, it was found that the 213-ton locomotive had "flown" 150 feet beyond the end of the coal trestle after taking off from an elevation of 15 feet. The drawbar between the A and B units snapped, and four cars had followed the air-borne FT's. A fifth car hung off the end of the trestle. Two men in the 803's cab, Road foreman of Engines Fred Lewis and fireman Oliver Wrench, were seriously injured.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Euclid BaltACD - the time since they last operated that line now exceeds the qualification period - by the qualification rules the employees is NOT Qualified - Supervisor insists that that the employee take the run under the threat of insubordination. Not qualified according to what details? How can not qualified be overridden?
BaltACD - the time since they last operated that line now exceeds the qualification period - by the qualification rules the employees is NOT Qualified - Supervisor insists that that the employee take the run under the threat of insubordination.
Not qualified according to what details? How can not qualified be overridden?
Qualifications expire if you have not made a trip over the territory in one year - in some cases it may be 6 months. On CSX the T&E payroll system keeps accurate track of the territories employees have been PAID for operating on and when the operated on it. The normal method management uses to override qualification disputes is bullying with threats of charging the person with insubordination.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
MidlandMike SD70Dude The 'Scrooge' part is that the company doesn't like calling the pilot in the first place. I have seen many arguments between Engineers and ill-informed supervisors about whether or not a pilot is really needed. I would have thought the foreign road needing to detour would have to pay for the pilot's time.
SD70Dude The 'Scrooge' part is that the company doesn't like calling the pilot in the first place. I have seen many arguments between Engineers and ill-informed supervisors about whether or not a pilot is really needed.
I would have thought the foreign road needing to detour would have to pay for the pilot's time.
I was referring to trains called with Engineers who are not qualified on a certain part of their own company's track.
For detours on short sections of foreign roads you are correct. For long-distance detours, like the CP trains that were running on CN's mainline to avoid the 2013 Alberta floods, entire host railroad crews are used. We ran those just like they were another CN train.
There are more occasions when pilots are needed in 'same road' operations. Detour moves are black and white issues on pilots and there rarely any conflict about them.
More frequently, with the size of seniority districts increasing with more and more territory being a part of the district - personel are used off their 'normal runs'; and while they may have been qualified on another run at one time - the time since they last operated that line now exceeds the qualification period - by the qualification rules the employees is NOT Qualified - Supervisor insists that that the employee take the run under the threat of insubordination.
SD70DudeThe 'Scrooge' part is that the company doesn't like calling the pilot in the first place. I have seen many arguments between Engineers and ill-informed supervisors about whether or not a pilot is really needed.
A few years ago, the UP was doing extensive work on the former RG track beteen Denver and Salt Lake City. On an eastbound trip aat that time, I talked with one of the Amtrak conductors (his regular run was Salt Lake Cty-Grand Junction), and asked if he should not be becoming qualified for that section--and he told me that he did not want to be qualified. He also told me that that morning was his last trip into Wyoming (crews were changed in Green River), and he was to be flown to Grand Junction to lay over there until his next trip west.
SD70Dude I have seen many arguments between Engineers and ill-informed supervisors about whether or not a pilot is really needed.
I really want to thank everybody who replied to my questions. The above comment by SD70Dude raises one additional item of curiosity for me. In the event of an extended period of detours, suppose a bridge totally washed out for example, is it likely or even possible that the "visiting" engineer will become qualified on the hosts segment after a requisite number of passes under the supervision of a qualified pilot? (thus no longer requiring a pilot for the remaining duration of detours)
Overmod, the account of the B&O engineer who could run fast reminded me of the N&W roundhouse foreman who made it possible for passengers on a B&O train out of St. Louis to reach Cincinnati two hours sooner when the governor on the second engine stuck on "stop." After talking with the crew, he sat in the second engine, listened to the first engine, and worked the governor by hand--saving the two hours that it would have taken a helping engine to arrive. (pp. 48-49, March 1999 issue of Trains).
Convicted OneCustomarily, does the "pilot" take over and actually run the train, or does he just serve in an advisory role to the "visiting" engineer?
Trains Magazine in the early 1970s had an anecdote about an EA-powered B&O train detouring over a nominally fast part of the NYC. There, the NYC pilot allowed the B&O engineer to run the train, but couldn't resist making some wisecrack about it being a high-speed railroad and to be sure to get the train over the road. The B&O guy was described as a quiet type who didn't ask questions: he did as told, notched out to Run 8 and left it there. I don't now recall the exact speed they reached before the epiphany, but it was QUITE a bit in excess of nominally high speed timetable limit...
Quoting SD70Dude, ". I have seen many arguments between Engineers and ill-informed supervisors about whether or not a pilot is really needed. " If the supervisor wants someone who does not know the territory to work the territory he should either be fired or take remedial education in railroad operation.
Convicted One Well, I'm glad to hear that nobody is penalized. The way the railroads are often portrayed on these boards as "scrooge", it wouldn't surprise me if the same taxi that delivereed the pilot also hauled the relieved "visiting" engineer to a location where he might be of more use.
Well, I'm glad to hear that nobody is penalized. The way the railroads are often portrayed on these boards as "scrooge", it wouldn't surprise me if the same taxi that delivereed the pilot also hauled the relieved "visiting" engineer to a location where he might be of more use.
The 'Scrooge' part is that the company doesn't like calling the pilot in the first place. I have seen many arguments between Engineers and ill-informed supervisors about whether or not a pilot is really needed.
The argument usually ends with the original Engineer refusing to take the train over track he is not qualified on, and the company having to call a pilot anyway.
Not sure how this goes on other railroads, but on CN the Engine Service Officers (our name for Road Foreman) normally side with the crew in situations like this, when safety is a concern.
What's a trin?
On one trip back to Salt Lake City, we were detoured across Wyoming. As we backed into the station here, the UP conductor conned the engineer in, calling the signals as we approached them, as the Amtrak conducto stoodbehind him. I did not ask which engineer was running the engine.
The UP has ACS across Wyoming and into Ogden. If the lead engine powering the train does not have ACS, the maximum speed allowed is 45 mph, according to an ETT I have.
Heritage operations notwithstanding, I believe where you will usually find a pilot will be on a detour move - ie, the usual route for a train on the XYZ railroad is blocked (ie, wreck, washout, etc), so the train is rerouted over the ABC railroad. ABCRR will provide a pilot over their tracks. The XYZRR crew may even originate and terminate on their own railroad.
These days, with run-through power on many trains being the norm, it's possible that a full crew from the host railroad might just take over the move completely.
Heritage moves are relatively rare, all things considered, and may well get a road foreman instead of a regular engineer as a pilot.
You need to have a qualified engineer on a territory. So yeah, there are times the RR has to pay for a pilot crew.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Convicted One Customarily, does the "pilot" take over and actually run the train, or does he just serve in an advisory role to the "visiting" engineer? Seems like it would be redundant to have two capable engineers on the same train, unless one has special qualifications such as a restored steam engine out on commercial trackage and what not.
Customarily, does the "pilot" take over and actually run the train, or does he just serve in an advisory role to the "visiting" engineer?
Seems like it would be redundant to have two capable engineers on the same train, unless one has special qualifications such as a restored steam engine out on commercial trackage and what not.
It's less a question of two capable engineers than it is one who is familiar with the equipment and one who is familiar with the territory.
Obviously, this would be especially true with, say, steam or other vintage equipment. In my case, I'm more familiar with the vintage equipment. Running a brand new loco with some high-tech stuff might be out of my league - but I know my territory.
That said, I'm pretty sure it could go either way in terms of who runs. We've had a couple of special excursions on our line with Amtrak power - the Amtrak engineers rather enjoy running on something other than flat, straight track, and have said so.
SD70DudeStill a real live railroad that has to comply with FRA regulations.
SD70DudeI'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you aren't deliberately looking to collect failures, or have any sort of quota to fill....
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