Another derailment on HSC today with center beams on the headend.
If you roll the HSC webcam back to 16:09 you can hear it and see the reaction of the spectators.
Virtual RailcamDerailment of 35A was at 16:09 on Track 3 with Track 2 fouled also. Last derailment was also on Track 3. Track 1 is open for business. There were NO helpers. 15 loaded cars and 207 empties.
Three center beam flats next to the engines followed by a cut of 'hi-cube' reefers. Classic stringline derailment.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Someone should send Norfolk Southern's operating department that recent issue of Trains with the story about how crucial proper train makeup was in the world of Precision Scheduled Railroading and massive trains. :)
What was it a poster on the Forum said a while back? (Wasn't me.) Oh, yeah...
"Doesn't anyone know how to railroad anymore?"
Again, it wasn't me. But then, I learned almost 60 years ago playing with my Lionels you don't put light cars on the head-end behind the engine, you put the heavy cars on the head-end and the light cars back by the caboose. If you don't, string-line!
Just sayin', you know?
Or maybe it's God's wrath for cancelling the 21st Century Steam Program?
https://youtu.be/FsE9mOohSB8
Beyond stupid.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
This guy gets it, even provides a demonstration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoWKu1Z0n0s
I recall a late 1960's issue of Trains with a sequence of photos showing a train derailing on Horseshoe curve. IIRC, the head end cars were empty 89' Trailer Train flat cars.
I would opine that PSR, and the pre-blocking that is part and parcel with PSR, would definitely be a factor. You cannot simultaneously pre-block a train and put the empties at the end.
To do it correctly, there would have to be two blocks for each drop point, not one.
And two blocks means extra switching, a no-no for PSR...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68I would opine that PSR, and the pre-blocking that is part and parcel with PSR, would definitely be a factor. You cannot simultaneously pre-block a train and put the empties at the end. To do it correctly, there would have to be two blocks for each drop point, not one. And two blocks means extra switching, a no-no for PSR...
Don't overlook the fact that this latest derailment happened with a train that was 'primarily' empties - 15 loads and 207 empties. I suspect that train could have been all empties and with the placement of the center beams being unchanged we would have had the same derailment.
Trailing tonnage behind long empties - no matter if that tonnage is loaded cars or empty cars.
BaltACD tree68 I would opine that PSR, and the pre-blocking that is part and parcel with PSR, would definitely be a factor. You cannot simultaneously pre-block a train and put the empties at the end. To do it correctly, there would have to be two blocks for each drop point, not one. And two blocks means extra switching, a no-no for PSR... Don't overlook the fact that this latest derailment happened with a train that was 'primarily' empties - 15 loads and 207 empties. I suspect that train could have been all empties and with the placement of the center beams being unchanged we would have had the same derailment. Trailing tonnage behind long empties - no matter if that tonnage is loaded cars or empty cars.
tree68 I would opine that PSR, and the pre-blocking that is part and parcel with PSR, would definitely be a factor. You cannot simultaneously pre-block a train and put the empties at the end. To do it correctly, there would have to be two blocks for each drop point, not one. And two blocks means extra switching, a no-no for PSR...
if you pop the stats from the train into the Davis Equation, you get train resistance of 370,000# at with a 10.8 mph balance speed on a 1.9% grade.
How fast was the train going? 11.1 mph (from my timing of YouTube video).
What's the rating of a grade C knuckle? 350,000#. You can get away with overstressing a knuckle a some number of times, but you eat away at the fatigue life like crazy.
Never mind the stringline which is a carbon copy of the last, who would even try to run this train up the mountain with helpers in the first place!?!
This train was a solid train of Conways that originated in Enola. You could have DPU'd the train with one unit on the rear. That would have solved all the problems.
I don't know how simple it would be to build a 10,000' DPU train out of Enola. The train probably had to triple out of Enola as it was. It think there might be enough headroom to get the train together w/o blocking the mainline west of Rockville Br., but I don't really know.
If you are going to routinely run merchandise trains with three big six axles on the head end, you need to have some sort of instruction to limit the maximum tractive effort at low speeds. Something like "don't exceed notch 7 below 15 mph, notch 6 below 8 mph", or the like
oltmannd, in the post before last, in the last paragraph, did you mean to write without helpers?
Is the length the problematic thing about center-beam flats?
And on this subject, what is the function of the center beam? Is it a load-shift deterrent? Is it there for the load to be strapped to?
I don’t know if I have ever seen one in person. But I see more and more of them in the photos in Trains.
Lithonia OperatorAnd on this subject, what is the function of the center beam?
It's the primary structure that holds the car straight with low tare weight!
Think how a bridge truss provides stiffness with low material content. You could build a car with truss construction (this is a principle with the bracing on, say, an X29 boxcar) but you'd then have to load around or through the truss structure. By providing the equivalent of the web in a T-beam you have stiffness at the center that provides support of the load floor while allowing easy loading from either side. (It is assumed that you reasonably balance the load between the two sides.)
Lithonia OperatorIs the length the problematic thing about center-beam flats? And on this subject, what is the function of the center beam? Is it a load-shift deterrent? Is it there for the load to be strapped to? I don’t know if I have ever seen one in person. But I see more and more of them in the photos in Trains.
Trailing tonnage is what is problematic. In the latest incident the center-beams were the first 3 cars in what was 'primarily' a empty train - 15 loads, 207 empties. Just because cars are empty doesn't mean they have no weight - empty cars in today's age have weights between 25 & 60 tons per car based on car type.
Overmod Lithonia Operator And on this subject, what is the function of the center beam? It's the primary structure that holds the car straight with low tare weight! Think how a bridge truss provides stiffness with low material content. You could build a car with truss construction (this is a principle with the bracing on, say, an X29 boxcar) but you'd then have to load around or through the truss structure. By providing the equivalent of the web in a T-beam you have stiffness at the center that provides support of the load floor while allowing easy loading from either side. (It is assumed that you reasonably balance the load between the two sides.)
Lithonia Operator And on this subject, what is the function of the center beam?
Johnny
Deggesty Overmod Lithonia Operator And on this subject, what is the function of the center beam? It's the primary structure that holds the car straight with low tare weight! Think how a bridge truss provides stiffness with low material content. You could build a car with truss construction (this is a principle with the bracing on, say, an X29 boxcar) but you'd then have to load around or through the truss structure. By providing the equivalent of the web in a T-beam you have stiffness at the center that provides support of the load floor while allowing easy loading from either side. (It is assumed that you reasonably balance the load between the two sides.) If you examine a center beam car, you should find loading instructions on both sides; essentially, you place a layer on one side, go around and place two layers on the other side, come back and place two layers on the first side, and then place a third layer on the second side--and you unload the car in the same manner. Should you place two layers on the first side before placing any on the second side, you will have a toppled car.
If you examine a center beam car, you should find loading instructions on both sides; essentially, you place a layer on one side, go around and place two layers on the other side, come back and place two layers on the first side, and then place a third layer on the second side--and you unload the car in the same manner. Should you place two layers on the first side before placing any on the second side, you will have a toppled car.
I always like to see the warning about unbalancing the car with the little stick figure running away from it. (Inside on the ends of the car.) Some have little dashes to show the figure running away fast.
Jeff
jeffhergertI always like to see the warning about unbalancing the car with the little stick figure running away from it. (Inside on the ends of the car.) Some have little dashes to show the figure running away fast.
I like his brother who gets hit on the head when the plug door falls off the boxcar.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Center beam cars: unsafe at any speed.
Loaded center-beams have fewer problems. It's the tare weight vs. length of the empty cars returning that can be problematic.
You could argue they are the poster-child for removing too much tare weight.
rrnut282Loaded center-beams have fewer problems. It's the tare weight vs. length of the empty cars returning that can be problematic. You could argue they are the poster-child for removing too much tare weight.
And what tare weight they have gives a high center of gravity with the center beam.
A few years ago CN had a bad derailment in southern Ontario that was caused by a centrebeam hunting at high speed:
http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2014/R14T0180/R14T0180.html
After this incident CN restricted empty centrebeams to 45 mph unless they were equipped with a better type of constant-contact side bearing. The vast majority of centrebeams have since been fitted with the better CCSBs, and it's been a while since I've seen one that was speed restricted.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
BaltACDAnd what tare weight they have gives a high center of gravity with the center beam.
tree68 BaltACD And what tare weight they have gives a high center of gravity with the center beam. Undoubtedly why you generally see all skeleton "centerbeams" now, instead of those with a more solid construction (ie, the oval cutouts).
BaltACD And what tare weight they have gives a high center of gravity with the center beam.
Undoubtedly why you generally see all skeleton "centerbeams" now, instead of those with a more solid construction (ie, the oval cutouts).
At least they still all have the cartoon of the guy about to get squashed
Even with the cut outs it is still putting weight up high.
BaltACDEven with the cut outs it is still putting weight up high.
I have a number of documents on from various official sources including the AAR on how to place freight cars in a train. What is the email address of the NS operatind department. I willsend them a copy.
Have a trash can? Just skip the middleman.
Yes Zugman, it probably is NOT worth the effort.
Just curious: do empty auto carriers have the same problem as centerbeam flats? They appear to be long and lightly built.
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