SD70Dude my customers that have to deal with your employeers US based side of it call them the Canadian NOPE when it comes to service. Half our loads to Mississippi are loads that are on IC trains in hopper cars that the IC can not deliver even a week late and the plant has to have product to run and we have to bail them out yet again. We have 5 trucks heading that way now for Monday morning yet again to keep the bumper plant for an auto assembly plant running because IC and CN sent the hopper car full of their plastic to Winnipeg instead of Jackson MS. Then CN wants them to pay for the freight charges for the screw up. I think we are going to get that contract full time pretty soon.
SD70DudeOne thing I like about this forum is comparing rules and operations with the folks from other railroads.
It is amazing how different 'similar' can be.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I apprecaite the posts of contributors such as 1070Dude and all the others who have hands-on experience in railroad operation and others whose work is connected with railroading--especially when they correct my errors. I have been interested in railroading for 70 years, and still have much to learn.
Johnny
jeffhergert Lithonia Operator jeffhergert, I’d be interested in knowing which road you work for, if that is something you are willing to divulge. Also, I think you are an engineer; is that correct? I always enjoy reading your posts. Yes, I'm a locomotive engineer. I work in the family business, for Uncle Pete. (Actually, I'm the first in my family to work for a railroad. And I don't really have an Uncle Pete.) Jeff
Lithonia Operator jeffhergert, I’d be interested in knowing which road you work for, if that is something you are willing to divulge. Also, I think you are an engineer; is that correct? I always enjoy reading your posts.
jeffhergert, I’d be interested in knowing which road you work for, if that is something you are willing to divulge. Also, I think you are an engineer; is that correct?
I always enjoy reading your posts.
Yes, I'm a locomotive engineer. I work in the family business, for Uncle Pete.
(Actually, I'm the first in my family to work for a railroad. And I don't really have an Uncle Pete.)
Jeff
There are a select few of us on here who currently work in train or engine service or other railroad operating positions, and more who are retired. Those ranks recently suffered a great loss with the death of Ed Blysard of Houston's PTRA (RIP).
I am currently employed by Crash National (you fill 'em, we spill 'em!).
One thing I like about this forum is comparing rules and operations with the folks from other railroads.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
jeffhergert Deggesty I wonder if the people who are gung-ho on precision scheduling are unaware of the reality that things that foul schedules up happen. A couple of months back, I brought into the home terminal a just shy of 15000 foot train. Normally, the train sets out and often is considerably shorter leaving. Usually the set out is a rear end and entirely behind the midtrain DP consist, which usually stays to be used on trains originating there. This one, had cars ahead of the DP also, which meant an extra move or two to get the setout to fit in the yard tracks. On this day, we were showing picking up (on the head end) a couple of units to be taken to another yard down the line. We started into the yard with about 45 mins to an hour left to work, after being held out for 2 or 3 hours because the yard wasn't ready for us. The outbound was on duty, and was on the spot to help with the engine work. They tried to go to the power and move it up to where we where in the yard. The power wouldn't start. The yard mechanic came out and got it running, then had to help to get the hand brake to release. We got the power together on the train and were just beginning to change out. The dispatcher came on the radio and asked where we were at in the process. I told him I was about to get off the engine, the outbound ready to get on and pull down and do the set out. He asked if he could have the signal back at the control point at the east end of the yard. I said they'll be ready to pull right away. He said he really needed it back. I said we had the whole town blocked. (One underpass in the city, but the big fire equipment won't fit under it.) He said the corridor manager wanted him to take the signal back. I said go ahead and take the signal. (The outbound had heard all this on the van radio and even said they'ld be ready to pull and start work.) While riding the van (now dead on hours) to the tie up point, I heard the outbound tell the dispatcher they were ready. The dispr said it would be about 20 mins or so before they could get a signal, waiting for one train each way. I figured, assuming they began their work on that time estimate, that the entire city was blocked for close to 2 hours before crossings started to be cleared. A week later, the outbound engineer told me he had turned in the blockage to our safety hotline. He said he got word that it was a hot topic during the next manager's morning meeting. Now while this did happen after PSR was started, things like this have happened before during times of extreme cost cutting. Those previous times usually being of low car loadings. It just happens more often, maybe not to that extent of time, under PSR with more trains doing more intermediate work. Jeff
Deggesty I wonder if the people who are gung-ho on precision scheduling are unaware of the reality that things that foul schedules up happen.
I wonder if the people who are gung-ho on precision scheduling are unaware of the reality that things that foul schedules up happen.
A couple of months back, I brought into the home terminal a just shy of 15000 foot train. Normally, the train sets out and often is considerably shorter leaving. Usually the set out is a rear end and entirely behind the midtrain DP consist, which usually stays to be used on trains originating there. This one, had cars ahead of the DP also, which meant an extra move or two to get the setout to fit in the yard tracks. On this day, we were showing picking up (on the head end) a couple of units to be taken to another yard down the line.
We started into the yard with about 45 mins to an hour left to work, after being held out for 2 or 3 hours because the yard wasn't ready for us. The outbound was on duty, and was on the spot to help with the engine work. They tried to go to the power and move it up to where we where in the yard. The power wouldn't start. The yard mechanic came out and got it running, then had to help to get the hand brake to release. We got the power together on the train and were just beginning to change out. The dispatcher came on the radio and asked where we were at in the process. I told him I was about to get off the engine, the outbound ready to get on and pull down and do the set out. He asked if he could have the signal back at the control point at the east end of the yard. I said they'll be ready to pull right away. He said he really needed it back. I said we had the whole town blocked. (One underpass in the city, but the big fire equipment won't fit under it.) He said the corridor manager wanted him to take the signal back. I said go ahead and take the signal. (The outbound had heard all this on the van radio and even said they'ld be ready to pull and start work.)
While riding the van (now dead on hours) to the tie up point, I heard the outbound tell the dispatcher they were ready. The dispr said it would be about 20 mins or so before they could get a signal, waiting for one train each way. I figured, assuming they began their work on that time estimate, that the entire city was blocked for close to 2 hours before crossings started to be cleared.
A week later, the outbound engineer told me he had turned in the blockage to our safety hotline. He said he got word that it was a hot topic during the next manager's morning meeting.
Now while this did happen after PSR was started, things like this have happened before during times of extreme cost cutting. Those previous times usually being of low car loadings. It just happens more often, maybe not to that extent of time, under PSR with more trains doing more intermediate work.
Penny wise, dollar foolish! Spend $1K to save a dime.
blue streak 1A breakdown at LaGrange is 2-1/2 miles of combined for the A&WP / Lineville subs. If the RRs do not do this voluntarily then we are concerned that congress / STB/ and or FRA is going to step in. That would of course be much worse !
If the RRs do not do this voluntarily then we are concerned that congress / STB/ and or FRA is going to step in. That would of course be much worse !
Don't know how LaGrange is dispatched at present - When I had it as a part of my territory - The Lineville Sub, including LaGrange was dispatched by one dispatcher; the A&WP was dispatched by a different dispatcher. The combined 2 1/2 miles was 'primarily' a railroad crossing at grade, without having a diamond.
While both dispatchers communicated with each other - the order of trains operating on the Lineville Sub was in the hands of the Lineville Sub Dispatcher and that includes the A&WP trains between the Lineville Sub control points. Dispatchers have to deal with the physcial characteristics of their territory.
PNWRMNM blue streak 1 Hopefully this would mainly benefit freight customers with side benefit to Amtrak. Very disingenuous, Streak. You are a well known passenger train guy advocating for another hidden subsidy for the rolling wreck known as ATK.
blue streak 1
Hopefully this would mainly benefit freight customers with side benefit to Amtrak.
Very disingenuous, Streak. You are a well known passenger train guy advocating for another hidden subsidy for the rolling wreck known as ATK.
Although our proposal will benefit Amtrak somewhat the focus is on freight RRs. There are too many freight only lines around here that would benefit from the many delays caused by too long freights for many sidings. LaGrange Ga is often packed with trains waiting for too long trains. Often see same train waiting for a slot as the BNSF haulage trains get some priority when able as crews for BNSF can run into HOS problems. There is esentially 5 - 6 miles of double track at LaGrange which is a combination of the CSX A&WP sub ( ATL - Montgomery ) and Lineville Sub ( Birmingham - Manchester ).
A breakdown at LaGrange is 2-1/2 miles of combined for the A&WP / Lineville subs.
Shadow the Cats owner Greyhounds my boss is a smaller customer for 2 of the Class 1 railroads just here in my town. We have SIT tracks at 3 locations in this town now. We are the ones that have the laid the tracks for the frack sand that gets hauled by NS out of this area since they have no direct rail access to the mine. We transload the sand from trucks into empty hoppers for NS and ship it out plus our plastics we get from them. We have doubled our shipments of hoppers on NS in the last year alone. Last year combined we shipped a combined 1200 cars empty and loaded on with it being a 50% split almost on both the BNSF and NS. That give you a clue how much plastics we are shipping out of here as custom blends. Let alone the sand which was 400 cars. Yet with PSR service level requirements that EHH demanded both my boss and the Ethanol plant that is at the end of the line on the NS will not be large enough to meet the service required to keep the line in business. This ethanol plant I am talking about produces just did an upgrade to produce 280 million gallons of ethonal a year.
Greyhounds my boss is a smaller customer for 2 of the Class 1 railroads just here in my town. We have SIT tracks at 3 locations in this town now. We are the ones that have the laid the tracks for the frack sand that gets hauled by NS out of this area since they have no direct rail access to the mine. We transload the sand from trucks into empty hoppers for NS and ship it out plus our plastics we get from them. We have doubled our shipments of hoppers on NS in the last year alone. Last year combined we shipped a combined 1200 cars empty and loaded on with it being a 50% split almost on both the BNSF and NS. That give you a clue how much plastics we are shipping out of here as custom blends. Let alone the sand which was 400 cars. Yet with PSR service level requirements that EHH demanded both my boss and the Ethanol plant that is at the end of the line on the NS will not be large enough to meet the service required to keep the line in business. This ethanol plant I am talking about produces just did an upgrade to produce 280 million gallons of ethonal a year.
So, what did EHH have to do with Norfolk Southern?
Also 1000 c/l of cooking oil/year? Maybe Lou Ana in Baton Rouge might do that.
Tangential stuff:
NS's implementation of PSR, so far, has not tackled the intermodal network to any great extent. It focused on trying to smooth out flow by getting more customers up to 7 day a week service, more pre-blocking at origin serving yards, and running longer trains with more DPU.
Has it worked? Too soon to tell, but my hunch is it'll move the OR a few points (if they stop being stupid with train make-up on the Horseshoe Curve...)
They plan on tackling intermodal next, maybe pulling some low volume lanes into mixed service (they did a lot of this with multilevel trains already)
I still fear that they are focusing too much on the present and not enough on the future. Too much is being spent on share repurchase and dividends and not enough on raising the physical plant up to 21st Century standards. (Just making the southern half of the RR look and run like the Pittsburgh and Chicago Lines would be a nice start)
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
BaltACD Euclid Would the railroad customers prefer re-regulation? Customers - like everyone else - are looking for 'free shipping'.
Euclid Would the railroad customers prefer re-regulation?
Customers - like everyone else - are looking for 'free shipping'.
LOL! Maybe not free but; what an old colleague of mine years ago referred to as “widows and orphans“ pricing.
EuclidWould the railroad customers prefer re-regulation?
Would the railroad customers prefer re-regulation?
I doubt many shippers would want to refer to it as “re-regulation“ but; I suspect many would like to see stronger oversight of the railroads that implement PSR.
While the above overdetailed regulation would probably not come out of Congress, it does demonstrate that PSR, however it is defined, has given new life to the specter of re-regulation.
blue streak 1Hopefully this would mainly benefit freight customers with side benefit to Amtrak.
PSR has had some very stinging complaints from various freight customers including Amtrak.
A proposal that congress should consider is some sort of regulation on train lengths.
What if congres and or the STB / FRA proposed the following.
Limit the length of trains on any segment so they would fit into the sidings on a route. As well distances between sidings capable to handle these monsters would have say no more than 40 miles between capable sidings with that distance being reduced every year until lengths between capable sidings would be 10 miles.
This would allow the RRs to determine on each route how many of these super sidings and their length that they would want on any route to handle both freight and those routes with Amtrak as well. Mountain routes such as the northern transcon would probably have shorter super sidings.
An example of not having at present having train lengths that will fit into present sidings is on NS between Meridian, Birmingham, and Atlanta that do not allow opposite direction freights to be dispatched on several long segments between sidings at the same time. As well Amtrak wannot run around an extra length train on this route. These Super sidings defined as capable of opposide direction trains of "X" length to pass. That would also allow Amtrak trains to run around freights for example on the Crescent route it is not possible on many segments.
Routes that are already 2 main tracks not double track current of direction would be naturally be exempt such as the BNSF transcon which only has a few short single track locations left. 2 MTs would allow for most trains to pass around any broken down freights.
greyhoundsOr the railroads could bring more customers within economic drayage range by adding more intermodal terminals.
Yeah, don't hold your breath for that with PSR. Intermodal will be/ is being slashed just like everything else.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
UP could open small IM terminals. All the places you name, plus many more, had them at one time. (Yes, a far cry from the modern IM terminal.) But they won't. Unless there is a sea change, they aren't interested in what they consider a short haul. I can tell you the volume of IM that originates in Council Bluffs (The ramp is on the IAIS over in the old RI East Yard. They haul it to/from the UP yard.) to Chicago. Zip, none. nada. The only time you see IM coming out of CB is if a conductor misread his train list and setout the wrong cars.
Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see them grow the business. But PSR isn't about running more efficiently to free up assets to grow the business. It could be, but as practiced it's about cutting costs and saving money.
So, so much to think about here, and I'm short on time.
Ken, I've gone a couple rounds with both you and 466lex over on Frailey's section of this site, so you probably already have a good idea of what we agree and disagree on. Also, Paul Bouzide would probably be a good source for info on UP's internal practices, though I believe he left their employment a couple years ago.
It truly is a shame that this so-called PSR is not very precise or scheduled. If it were then customers like Juniata Man would not be complaining in droves. Short-term hiccups while restructuring could be understood, but with CN, CP and CSX the pains went on for years. Not to mention all the other cuts that happened during EHH's tenure, leaving railroads with worn-out physical plants with rampant deferred maintenance and an inability to properly handle any future increases in business. When CN's oilfield and intermodal traffic surged in Western Canada a couple years ago it caused gridlock out here, which continues today (though not nearly as bad as the winter of 2017-18). That's the true legacy of PSR.
A railroad that implemented EHH's version of PSR wouldn't be able to keep all that new business hauling pork, beef, cereal and eggs, even if they had bothered to go out and get it in the first place.
So far it seems like UP's 'PSR-lite' is not causing nearly as many problems as the full EHH dose. Let's hope it stays that way.
jeffhergertUltimately, the class ones (for now) may have the goal of having nothing but intermodal trains. PSR isn't about getting to that goal, rather how to handle the remaining car load business until it can be converted or eliminated. If they ever reach that goal, about the only customers they'll be serving are those located near a major metropolitan area where most of their IM terminals are. I think rail customers outside of whatever is a reasonable drey range will end up sending their shipments entirely by highway.
Or the railroads could bring more customers within economic drayage range by adding more intermodal terminals.
Let's go back to my favorite place, Iowa. Iowa does generate a whole lot of truck freight. It's kind of the breakfast originator for America. Pork, cereal, eggs. And there's export. Very little of this, if any, moves by rail. Even though it's moving long distances to coastal population centers.
And, just how busy is the UP main line between Chicago and Council Bluffs these days? They could consider putting low cost intermodal terminals in Sioux City (Beef, pork and eggs), Marshalltown (Pork), and Cedar Rapids (Cereal, with pork from Waterloo). That would bring these production facilities within economical drayage distance. They've already got an IM facility in Council Bluffs.
So what's the hold up? Well, railroad cost analysis is a can of worms. In a time gone by I went a few rounds with a guy calling himself "466lex" over on Fred Frailey's blog. He was a former financial guy with, I guess, the BN. He insisted on applying average costs to any analysis. This will give you the wrong answer every time. It seems to be a legacy from the ICC which insisted on doing it that way.
What counts are the marginal costs, not the average costs. Marginal costs are what will be directly incurred by adding the service, nothing more. If the railroad can get more added revenue than the added marginal costs, it will be money ahead by doing so.
I don't see the UP as being at this point, yet. They seem to be still using average costs. Again, if a company uses average costs in analysis they'll get the wrong answer every time.
charlie hebdo Some are speaking of 'activist investors' as though they were one and the same with 'vulture' capitalists. They are not, in my opinion. According to the Investopedia, an activist investor is an individual or group that purchases large numbers of a public company's shares and/or tries to obtain seats on the company's board to effect a significant change within the company. On the other hand, a vulture capitalist is a type of venture capitalist who looks for opportunities to make money by buying poor or distressed firms. “Distressed” refers to companies or property in trouble, mismanaged, dying and heading toward bankruptcy. The “vulture” fund believes they see some “meat on the bone” and may get involved when all others have passed. They will either try to turn the asset around or liquidate it before it goes into the inevitable bankruptcy process.
Some are speaking of 'activist investors' as though they were one and the same with 'vulture' capitalists. They are not, in my opinion.
According to the Investopedia, an activist investor is an individual or group that purchases large numbers of a public company's shares and/or tries to obtain seats on the company's board to effect a significant change within the company. On the other hand, a vulture capitalist is a type of venture capitalist who looks for opportunities to make money by buying poor or distressed firms. “Distressed” refers to companies or property in trouble, mismanaged, dying and heading toward bankruptcy. The “vulture” fund believes they see some “meat on the bone” and may get involved when all others have passed. They will either try to turn the asset around or liquidate it before it goes into the inevitable bankruptcy process.
Far worse than the activist investor who holds management to account are the droves of passive investors who don't vote.. don't get involved .. and just let'er ride. These passive investors often don't have a clue about what they own even (i.e. CSX is a cereal) , and they allow poor managements to thrive and prosper until its too late.
These days the biggest culprits and enablers of mediocrity are not the activist investors but rather the index funds that have proliferated over the last couple of decades. Index funds are by their very nature passive.. they track the market or a portion of it, and they aren't managed or directed to any meaningful extent. They're akin to having an owner of a business who doesn't care.. doesn't even come in to the office.. And if the business goes south.. oh well.. he's got other businesses anyway.
This is not to say that all activist investors are good.. many are too focussed on the short term without any regard for how things turn out 10 or 20 years down the road. Ideally a business should have owners (investors) who have 10 to 30 year time horizons.. but those are generally family own businesses and not publicly traded companies where shareholders really have no skin in the game.. i.e. can sell out at any time.
Actually, PSR isn't about train load customers. It's about running as few trains as possible. They want to run a balanced system, the same number of trains east/west or north/south every day. Unit trains can be unpredictable and throw off the network. It might require holding onto extra equipment and manpower in anticipation of when the trains will run.
They actually want to convert some unit trains to the manifest network. One example of this goal was using an imaginary customer that loads 10 cars a day, but waits 10 days until they accumulate 100 cars and then the train is run. Now they would rather pick up those 10 cars every day and move it in the regular manifest network. It's funny how over the years they wanted unit trains by offering multi-car discount rates and just making it hard to obtain cars for those that didn't or couldn't use the railroad's targeted unit train size. Now it seems they want to undo that.
What they still don't want, of course, is the small volume/once or twice a week customer. I think about some of the opprotunities they've turned down involving 10 to 30 car block business that could've been handled in the manifest network over the last few years. I wonder now if they would jump at it.
Ultimately, the class ones (for now) may have the goal of having nothing but intermodal trains. PSR isn't about getting to that goal, rather how to handle the remaining car load business until it can be converted or eliminated. If they ever reach that goal, about the only customers they'll be serving are those located near a major metropolitan area where most of their IM terminals are. I think rail customers outside of whatever is a reasonable drey range will end up sending their shipments entirely by highway.
greyhounds Who, The Blazes, gets 1,000 tank cars of cooking oil in a year?
It might be less - I believe they repackage it.
The actual industry is served by a short line that provides "last mile" service for a number of small customers, including steel that is often a "high/wide" load. CSX picks up/drops the aggregated group of cars, but it's still loose car.
The short line also still serves a feed mill that gets one car at a time, about once a week. Must still be economical for the mill to get carload lots vs trucks.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68How many containers would it take to replace 10 full sized tankers of cooking oil? Delivered twice a week? Or two flat cars of steel shapes, too big for the highway?
Well, I did say that there was a niche for loose car railroading. When you're in to large volume bulk liquids or oversize loads, you're in the niche. Who, The Blazes, gets 1,000 tank cars of cooking oil in a year?
But that isn't most freight. After all, most freight now moves by truck. Loose carload just isn't, and can't be, competitive.
A good example is the Quaker cereal factory in Cedar Rapids, IA. They claim it's the largest cereal factory in the world. It pumps out 100 trucks of cereal per working day. And not one ounce of that cereal moves out by rail.
Be concerned about things like that. Not the niche movements.
greyhounds BaltACD If you are serving ALL customers large and SMALL you are not running PSR because you still have loose car railroading. Loose car railroading requires car for car switching to service the SMALL customer. If you have small customers you cannot have PSR. What I really like about this thread is that I'm learning. My mom taught school for 43 years and I guess she taught me to learn to learn. Nobody has changed my mind, but I get to better understand people who differ with me. I kind of like that. I'm going to speak up on this one. Sorry Balt, but you're wrong. Serving ALL customers, great and small, does not require loose car railroading. While there is a niche for loose car business, it's generally a very inefficient system. Somebody will have to pay for this inefficiency. There just ain't no free lunch. The government can't try to force the investors to pay, because then they won't invest. If the customers would pay there would be no problem, but they won't. Who's left? Put the small shippers in containers and do the pick up and delivery by highway. There will be a need for more intermodal terminals, and trains. But it's usually far less costly to do small shipper PU&D by truck with the line haul by rail. And lower cost logistics are good for all of us.
BaltACD If you are serving ALL customers large and SMALL you are not running PSR because you still have loose car railroading. Loose car railroading requires car for car switching to service the SMALL customer. If you have small customers you cannot have PSR.
What I really like about this thread is that I'm learning. My mom taught school for 43 years and I guess she taught me to learn to learn. Nobody has changed my mind, but I get to better understand people who differ with me. I kind of like that.
I'm going to speak up on this one. Sorry Balt, but you're wrong.
Serving ALL customers, great and small, does not require loose car railroading. While there is a niche for loose car business, it's generally a very inefficient system. Somebody will have to pay for this inefficiency. There just ain't no free lunch. The government can't try to force the investors to pay, because then they won't invest. If the customers would pay there would be no problem, but they won't. Who's left?
Put the small shippers in containers and do the pick up and delivery by highway. There will be a need for more intermodal terminals, and trains. But it's usually far less costly to do small shipper PU&D by truck with the line haul by rail. And lower cost logistics are good for all of us.
Not all small customers can be SERVED by truck sized shipments. Of course once you stop serving them they will get truck shipments from other carriers since you pissed them off in the first place.
The small railroad served customers of the 21 Century are railroad customers for a reason. The reason being that for most of the last two decades the carriers have tried to substitute 'intermodal' service for their needs and it has alread been found wanting for a variety of reasons that are germain to the individual customers.
PSR does not want car load customers - train load yes, car load no. Ever since Staggers the Class 1's have been actively discouraging car load customers. They are almost gone now, a few more years and they will be gone.
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