tree68 Euclid But every challenge is different, so the reaction should be flexible rather than a consistent habit of memorized behavior. This from a person trying to prove that an emergency application is always justified.
Euclid But every challenge is different, so the reaction should be flexible rather than a consistent habit of memorized behavior.
This from a person trying to prove that an emergency application is always justified.
You are mistating what I said in order to make it more logical to disagree with. I never said that an emergency application is always justified. What I have said is that an emergency appliction should not be routinely withheld until impact in order to establish that the application is necessary.
I have also said that you can't go down the line dumping the air every time someone crosses your path even if it is a little too close. I said an engineer has to read the cues of each situation, and determine whether those indications are that a person is likely clear in time; or to remain on the track and get hit. Only if it is the latter; then make the emgency application without waiting until impact.
However, if a person is walking along a track in the foul zone, and the engineer blows the horn and gets no acknowledgment, that is a sign that there is a better than usual chance they they will not move out of the way. I would make an emergency application at that point. They might step out of the way at the last second, but I would take that chance because it might save a life. And it is not going to happen that often, so it will not lead to a problem with making emergency applications ever mile. Most people want to get out of the way, and they hear and see the train approaching so they know when to get out of the way.
Electroliner 1935 zardoz I keep checking back to see if anything new/interesting has been added, but it's just the same-o, same-o. I have other words than "the same-o, same-o" to describe it. On the upside, I do wonder how much on the job (ie, in service with an experienced teacher first demonstrating, and then observing the new engineer after simulator training) does a new Engineer receive. And of course, sometimes old timers train new ones bad habits.
zardoz I keep checking back to see if anything new/interesting has been added, but it's just the same-o, same-o.
I have other words than "the same-o, same-o" to describe it.
On the upside, I do wonder how much on the job (ie, in service with an experienced teacher first demonstrating, and then observing the new engineer after simulator training) does a new Engineer receive.
And of course, sometimes old timers train new ones bad habits.
On CSX in the pre PSR days - 'off the street' Engineers that graduated from REDI would get four to six months of OJT on the territory they were to become qualified upon. The would accept calls in accordance with their rest status - ie. they were not assigned to any particular engineer - whether they picked up good habits or bad I have never been in a position to judge. Engineers that had been qualified on other carriers and came to REDI already possessing their 'Engineers Card' would progress through REDI faster than the 'off the street' variety trainee and would normally get OJT on the territory they are going to be working for one to two months.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Getting back OT, there is a lot to be said for mentors and supervision for novices in many jobs. But not all mentors are equally effective, even if their skill sets are outstanding. It also requires the right sorts of personalities.
zardozI keep checking back to see if anything new/interesting has been added, but it's just the same-o, same-o.
Electroliner 1935I am not a moderator. I am ready for this thread to be closed.
Electroliner 1935You get repititious and tiring. So much so that I feel it is getting painful. I am not a moderator. I am ready for this thread to be closed.
I keep checking back to see if anything new/interesting has been added, but it's just the same-o, same-o.
So how exactly does Amtrak train their people? Who is doing the training and what does it consist of. How is this different from the class one railroads?
243129 Electroliner 1935 If you are a masochist. The masochist told the sadist, "Hit Me", and the sadist replied "No" Do you (ever) have anything to offer on topic? Other than your 'asides' I cannot ever remember you offering anything of substance on any threads I have participated in .
Electroliner 1935
If you are a masochist. The masochist told the sadist, "Hit Me", and the sadist replied "No"
Do you (ever) have anything to offer on topic? Other than your 'asides' I cannot ever remember you offering anything of substance on any threads I have participated in .
This was in response to Paul of Covington's saying this string is "FUN"
You get repititious and tiring. So much so that I feel it is getting painful. I am not a moderator. I am ready for this thread to be closed.
243129 BaltACD Aaha - the old "The older you get the greater you were syndrome." Happens to retirees all the time, in every profession. Not at all my record/career speaks for itself. No "syndrome" involved just facts. The tone of your reply indicates that you are looking 'engage'. Is this so?
BaltACD Aaha - the old "The older you get the greater you were syndrome." Happens to retirees all the time, in every profession.
Not at all my record/career speaks for itself. No "syndrome" involved just facts. The tone of your reply indicates that you are looking 'engage'. Is this so?
There's nothing to engage.
tree68You're driving down a fairly busy suburban street, at the speed limit (say, 35?). Fifty yards in front of you, a ball bounces into the street. You can see a youngster, not yet in the road, but headed that way. Do you immediately make a panic stop? Both feet on the brake pedal, pedal pushed to the floor? Or do you take your foot off the gas, apply light pressure on the brake pedal, and watch to see what Junior does? I'm betting you'll do the latter, watch to see where the kid and the ball go, and if they are both in the clear, you'll keep right on going.
Electroliner 1935If you are a masochist. The masochist told the sadist, "Hit Me", and the sadist replied "No"
BaltACDAaha - the old "The older you get the greater you were syndrome." Happens to retirees all the time, in every profession.
Paul of Covington Please don't lock or delete this thread. It's fun.
If you are a masochist.
The masochist told the sadist, "Hit Me", and the sadist replied "No"
243129 Murphy Siding Whether you mean to or not, the vibe you give off is that none of the current Amtrak engineers can live up to how good you were back in the good old days. Not just me...us. Today's engineers do not have the benefit of the "genuine knowledge" passed on to my era by those who have experienced it. In my time as a fireman I had a chance to experience many incidents i.e. fatalities, grade crossing accidents, freight derailments, knuckles, drawbars, hot boxes, manual block and on and on. I had much experience to pass on but Amtrak, in their still existent arrogance, had a 'better idea'. Wilmington training center. All hat no cattle. Railroading is a unique industry that cannot be learned from a book or at a university, only from those who have experienced it. Amtrak chose not to use this resource and the results are evident in the many human error accidents that have occured since they have hired/assumed their own T&E employees. I am very proud of my career as a locomotive engineer. No discipline, no knuckles, no drawbars. That being said I do not consider myself any better than anyone else just better trained. If you detect any bitterness it is against Amtrak and how they have eroded railroad operations with their 'we have a better way' system. They do not as is in evidence with their numerous human error disasters. Amtrak is in dire need of oversight but no one seems to care. Murphy Siding Have you worked alongside Amtrak engineers who were vetted, trained, experienced etc. up to the levels you feel they should have been? Not by Amtrak but some recognized the value of experience and would ask questions/advice which myself and my peers were happy to impart.
Murphy Siding Whether you mean to or not, the vibe you give off is that none of the current Amtrak engineers can live up to how good you were back in the good old days.
Not just me...us. Today's engineers do not have the benefit of the "genuine knowledge" passed on to my era by those who have experienced it. In my time as a fireman I had a chance to experience many incidents i.e. fatalities, grade crossing accidents, freight derailments, knuckles, drawbars, hot boxes, manual block and on and on. I had much experience to pass on but Amtrak, in their still existent arrogance, had a 'better idea'. Wilmington training center. All hat no cattle. Railroading is a unique industry that cannot be learned from a book or at a university, only from those who have experienced it. Amtrak chose not to use this resource and the results are evident in the many human error accidents that have occured since they have hired/assumed their own T&E employees.
I am very proud of my career as a locomotive engineer. No discipline, no knuckles, no drawbars. That being said I do not consider myself any better than anyone else just better trained. If you detect any bitterness it is against Amtrak and how they have eroded railroad operations with their 'we have a better way' system. They do not as is in evidence with their numerous human error disasters. Amtrak is in dire need of oversight but no one seems to care.
Murphy Siding Have you worked alongside Amtrak engineers who were vetted, trained, experienced etc. up to the levels you feel they should have been?
Not by Amtrak but some recognized the value of experience and would ask questions/advice which myself and my peers were happy to impart.
Aaha - the old "The older you get the greater you were syndrome." Happens to retirees all the time, in every profession.
Murphy SidingWhether you mean to or not, the vibe you give off is that none of the current Amtrak engineers can live up to how good you were back in the good old days.
Murphy SidingHave you worked alongside Amtrak engineers who were vetted, trained, experienced etc. up to the levels you feel they should have been?
Murphy Siding Euclid BaltACD Euclid BaltACD Euclid Overmod Yes ... would that training, vetting, and coaching could make this more and more emphasized. As I noted, railroad rules are a crappy way to do this sort of awareness enhancement: I propose to have the unions provide or contract for it as far as railroad employees are concerned. That is an interesting idea. Have an independent service contractor come in and train new employees. It would be like Hulcher coming in to pick up derailments. We have talked a lot about Amtrak having poor training. How exactly is training done at Amtrak? Who actually does the training and how is it done? I'll bet an independent training service could do a better job than Amtrak, and do it cheaper. When they are not training new hires, they could be out following trains and replacing knuckles. Independent Training Contractor are about the WORST IDEA I have heard of - they have 'no skin in the game' they are just there for the money. They would have plenty of skin in the game. They have to produce or they get sent packing. That is the beauty of an independent contractor. I'll bet they could get the job done for less cost and better quality than the having it done in house with all the job entitlement and overhead. But I am considering this mainly for Amtrak since they seem to be falling down on the job of training. The 'Independent Contractor' in education and training is one of the recent scams to hit the country. Their motto is fake it till you make it and file for bankruptcy just ahead of being charged by the authorities for fraud. ITT Tech, Education Corporation of America have followed this scheme - others are sucking in 'student loans' and putting their students in debt without providing salable skills. Well a company does have to have to be competent enough to hire independent contractors and get the performance out of them. Otherwise they will pay more than they are worth and will not be able to receive or process the work product from the contractors. Public sector employers are likely to get taken by independent contractors rather than being served well by them. Companies pick outside contractors to do the work they have been doing internally for one and only one reason- cost savings.
Euclid BaltACD Euclid BaltACD Euclid Overmod Yes ... would that training, vetting, and coaching could make this more and more emphasized. As I noted, railroad rules are a crappy way to do this sort of awareness enhancement: I propose to have the unions provide or contract for it as far as railroad employees are concerned. That is an interesting idea. Have an independent service contractor come in and train new employees. It would be like Hulcher coming in to pick up derailments. We have talked a lot about Amtrak having poor training. How exactly is training done at Amtrak? Who actually does the training and how is it done? I'll bet an independent training service could do a better job than Amtrak, and do it cheaper. When they are not training new hires, they could be out following trains and replacing knuckles. Independent Training Contractor are about the WORST IDEA I have heard of - they have 'no skin in the game' they are just there for the money. They would have plenty of skin in the game. They have to produce or they get sent packing. That is the beauty of an independent contractor. I'll bet they could get the job done for less cost and better quality than the having it done in house with all the job entitlement and overhead. But I am considering this mainly for Amtrak since they seem to be falling down on the job of training. The 'Independent Contractor' in education and training is one of the recent scams to hit the country. Their motto is fake it till you make it and file for bankruptcy just ahead of being charged by the authorities for fraud. ITT Tech, Education Corporation of America have followed this scheme - others are sucking in 'student loans' and putting their students in debt without providing salable skills. Well a company does have to have to be competent enough to hire independent contractors and get the performance out of them. Otherwise they will pay more than they are worth and will not be able to receive or process the work product from the contractors. Public sector employers are likely to get taken by independent contractors rather than being served well by them.
BaltACD Euclid BaltACD Euclid Overmod Yes ... would that training, vetting, and coaching could make this more and more emphasized. As I noted, railroad rules are a crappy way to do this sort of awareness enhancement: I propose to have the unions provide or contract for it as far as railroad employees are concerned. That is an interesting idea. Have an independent service contractor come in and train new employees. It would be like Hulcher coming in to pick up derailments. We have talked a lot about Amtrak having poor training. How exactly is training done at Amtrak? Who actually does the training and how is it done? I'll bet an independent training service could do a better job than Amtrak, and do it cheaper. When they are not training new hires, they could be out following trains and replacing knuckles. Independent Training Contractor are about the WORST IDEA I have heard of - they have 'no skin in the game' they are just there for the money. They would have plenty of skin in the game. They have to produce or they get sent packing. That is the beauty of an independent contractor. I'll bet they could get the job done for less cost and better quality than the having it done in house with all the job entitlement and overhead. But I am considering this mainly for Amtrak since they seem to be falling down on the job of training. The 'Independent Contractor' in education and training is one of the recent scams to hit the country. Their motto is fake it till you make it and file for bankruptcy just ahead of being charged by the authorities for fraud. ITT Tech, Education Corporation of America have followed this scheme - others are sucking in 'student loans' and putting their students in debt without providing salable skills.
Euclid BaltACD Euclid Overmod Yes ... would that training, vetting, and coaching could make this more and more emphasized. As I noted, railroad rules are a crappy way to do this sort of awareness enhancement: I propose to have the unions provide or contract for it as far as railroad employees are concerned. That is an interesting idea. Have an independent service contractor come in and train new employees. It would be like Hulcher coming in to pick up derailments. We have talked a lot about Amtrak having poor training. How exactly is training done at Amtrak? Who actually does the training and how is it done? I'll bet an independent training service could do a better job than Amtrak, and do it cheaper. When they are not training new hires, they could be out following trains and replacing knuckles. Independent Training Contractor are about the WORST IDEA I have heard of - they have 'no skin in the game' they are just there for the money. They would have plenty of skin in the game. They have to produce or they get sent packing. That is the beauty of an independent contractor. I'll bet they could get the job done for less cost and better quality than the having it done in house with all the job entitlement and overhead. But I am considering this mainly for Amtrak since they seem to be falling down on the job of training.
BaltACD Euclid Overmod Yes ... would that training, vetting, and coaching could make this more and more emphasized. As I noted, railroad rules are a crappy way to do this sort of awareness enhancement: I propose to have the unions provide or contract for it as far as railroad employees are concerned. That is an interesting idea. Have an independent service contractor come in and train new employees. It would be like Hulcher coming in to pick up derailments. We have talked a lot about Amtrak having poor training. How exactly is training done at Amtrak? Who actually does the training and how is it done? I'll bet an independent training service could do a better job than Amtrak, and do it cheaper. When they are not training new hires, they could be out following trains and replacing knuckles. Independent Training Contractor are about the WORST IDEA I have heard of - they have 'no skin in the game' they are just there for the money.
Euclid Overmod Yes ... would that training, vetting, and coaching could make this more and more emphasized. As I noted, railroad rules are a crappy way to do this sort of awareness enhancement: I propose to have the unions provide or contract for it as far as railroad employees are concerned. That is an interesting idea. Have an independent service contractor come in and train new employees. It would be like Hulcher coming in to pick up derailments. We have talked a lot about Amtrak having poor training. How exactly is training done at Amtrak? Who actually does the training and how is it done? I'll bet an independent training service could do a better job than Amtrak, and do it cheaper. When they are not training new hires, they could be out following trains and replacing knuckles.
Overmod Yes ... would that training, vetting, and coaching could make this more and more emphasized. As I noted, railroad rules are a crappy way to do this sort of awareness enhancement: I propose to have the unions provide or contract for it as far as railroad employees are concerned.
Independent Training Contractor are about the WORST IDEA I have heard of - they have 'no skin in the game' they are just there for the money.
They would have plenty of skin in the game. They have to produce or they get sent packing. That is the beauty of an independent contractor. I'll bet they could get the job done for less cost and better quality than the having it done in house with all the job entitlement and overhead. But I am considering this mainly for Amtrak since they seem to be falling down on the job of training.
The 'Independent Contractor' in education and training is one of the recent scams to hit the country. Their motto is fake it till you make it and file for bankruptcy just ahead of being charged by the authorities for fraud. ITT Tech, Education Corporation of America have followed this scheme - others are sucking in 'student loans' and putting their students in debt without providing salable skills.
Well a company does have to have to be competent enough to hire independent contractors and get the performance out of them. Otherwise they will pay more than they are worth and will not be able to receive or process the work product from the contractors. Public sector employers are likely to get taken by independent contractors rather than being served well by them.
Companies pick outside contractors to do the work they have been doing internally for one and only one reason- cost savings.
And in multiple instances they have concluded that what they saved cost them multiples of what their own prior performance of the function actually cost and the outsourcing was terminated. In many cases 24 hour service means different things to different contracted services -"We will provide 24 hour service, 9 AM to 5 PM Monday through Fridays every day except National and religious holidays for all the major religions."
EuclidBut here is a question for you. If there is such a downside to making an emergency application that it is worth taking a chance on killing someone just to avoid making an emergency application-- then why do engineers who wait until impact go ahead and make the emergency application after impact?
I don't have an answer - I've never had to deal with the situation, although I've come close. I've always been able to slow the train sufficiently with a regular brake application. That said, I have to answer your question with a question.
You're driving down a fairly busy suburban street, at the speed limit (say, 35?). Fifty yards in front of you, a ball bounces into the street. You can see a youngster, not yet in the road, but headed that way.
Do you immediately make a panic stop? Both feet on the brake pedal, pedal pushed to the floor? Or do you take your foot off the gas, apply light pressure on the brake pedal, and watch to see what Junior does?
I'm betting you'll do the latter, watch to see where the kid and the ball go, and if they are both in the clear, you'll keep right on going.
And don't forget, this is a fairly busy suburban street - that panic stop may garner you a rear end collision, regardless of how the blame for that may be assessed.
Say this happens with some regularity. Are you going to continually risk that rear end collision when 99% of the time the kid stops and the rest of the time you can stop with no more than some heavy braking?
And let's talk about the downside of emergency brake applications in the passenger rail world. People fall, things fall. How many broken limbs are you willing to submit the passengers to on the chance that one in 999 of the occupants of the tracks will not move?
Even spilled hot drinks can lead to hospitalization.
In the end, it's a judgment call on the part of the engineer. How fast, how far, potential risks. In this case, there was just 15 seconds to consider all the possibilities.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
243129 .........I hired in engine service as a fireman in 1963 and was promoted to engineer in 1970. I received OJT from experienced engineers in all classes of service. I consider that an apprenticeship. Amtrak feels they can teach you from a book with minimal OJT. The failure in that concept is evident in their many human error disasters since these 'grads',both train and engine, from their training programs have been loosed on the traveling public.
.........I hired in engine service as a fireman in 1963 and was promoted to engineer in 1970. I received OJT from experienced engineers in all classes of service. I consider that an apprenticeship. Amtrak feels they can teach you from a book with minimal OJT. The failure in that concept is evident in their many human error disasters since these 'grads',both train and engine, from their training programs have been loosed on the traveling public.
Whether you mean to or not, the vibe you give off is that none of the current Amtrak engineers can live up to how good you were back in the good old days. Maybe that's a valid point. Other than suggesting it over and over, you don't seem to provide much that would make your assertions seem like much more than the opinions of a retired engineer who is bitter at Amtrak. Have you worked alongside Amtrak engineers who were vetted, trained, experienced etc. up to the levels you feel they should have been?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
243129 tree68 This is where the experience comes in. If the crewmembers had cleared the tracks in time without the engineer having to make an emergency application, the engineer would have learned, from experience, that dumping the train probably wasn't necessary, and next time she was faced with a similar situation, she would react exactly the same. What I glean from this is you advocate NOT placing the brake in emergency unless/until you hit them. Is that assumption correct?
tree68 This is where the experience comes in. If the crewmembers had cleared the tracks in time without the engineer having to make an emergency application, the engineer would have learned, from experience, that dumping the train probably wasn't necessary, and next time she was faced with a similar situation, she would react exactly the same.
Addressed to all participants: No personal attacks. You know who you are. You know what you said. Examine your words. Make the forums a better place. Enhance your experience. Thank you.
Angela Pusztai-Pasternak, Production Editor, Trains Magazine
Duplicate
Note to moderators: Please don't lock or delete this thread. It's fun.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
zugmann 243129 The 'sniper' surfaces. Do you ever post anything of substance? Look up. That was the point that went by. Although you started this username nonsense, so I'm just following your lead, Mr. Gasket. Back to my cave. Carry on.
243129 The 'sniper' surfaces. Do you ever post anything of substance?
Look up. That was the point that went by.
Although you started this username nonsense, so I'm just following your lead, Mr. Gasket.
Back to my cave. Carry on.
Ah the mindset of the typical 'in crowder', stand by your fellow 'in crowder' no matter. Scroll back a few posts there sniper and you will see where your amigo elicited a reference to his username then go back to your cave and stop embarrasing yourself with your snarky asides. Perhaps you could offer something on topic....for a change.
charlie hebdo In two words, obviously no. I would think if you could read with accurate comprehension, you would understand the need to read more than the first words and in context. You are a poster child of what you denounce with Amtrak: poor training (in basic reading).
In two words, obviously no.
I would think if you could read with accurate comprehension, you would understand the need to read more than the first words and in context. You are a poster child of what you denounce with Amtrak: poor training (in basic reading).
So you disagree that "all genuine knowledge comes from direct experience"?
Oh wait I forgot you won't answer when confronted with a direct question.
charlie please stop acting like a prepubescent little girl having a hissy fit. It is pathetic.
tree68 tree68 This is where the experience comes in. If the crewmembers had cleared the tracks in time without the engineer having to make an emergency application, the engineer would have learned, from experience, that dumping the train probably wasn't necessary, and next time she was faced with a similar situation, she would react exactly the same. In fact, there's no saying she hadn't already encountered a similar situation, and her reaction in that case was sufficient. Euclid She said it happens all the time. She said she was taken aback because the two conductors did not move as she expected. It seems that she expects every person on the track to move out of the way before the train gets to them. If you do that, by the time you find out they won't move, it is too late to dump the air. Well there you go - experience.
This is where the experience comes in. If the crewmembers had cleared the tracks in time without the engineer having to make an emergency application, the engineer would have learned, from experience, that dumping the train probably wasn't necessary, and next time she was faced with a similar situation, she would react exactly the same.
In fact, there's no saying she hadn't already encountered a similar situation, and her reaction in that case was sufficient.
Euclid She said it happens all the time. She said she was taken aback because the two conductors did not move as she expected. It seems that she expects every person on the track to move out of the way before the train gets to them. If you do that, by the time you find out they won't move, it is too late to dump the air.
Well there you go - experience.
What is that supposed to mean? What she learned from experience is a bad habit. You are right that if confronted with another right of way challenge, she would probably act the same way. But every challenge is different, so the reaction should be flexible rather than a consistent habit of memorized behavior.
Her explanation sounds like she has the habit of never making an emergency application until imapct because she does not want to risk making it and having the reason for making it clear before impact. Experts I have talked to said that is very bad practice and they advise people to never engage in it.
But here is a question for you. If there is such a downside to making an emergency application that it is worth taking a chance on killing someone just to avoid making an emergency application-- then why do engineers who wait until impact go ahead and make the emergency application after impact?
If an emergency application was too risky and problematic before impact when it might have saved a life; why go ahead and dump the air after impact?
243129The 'sniper' surfaces. Do you ever post anything of substance?
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
charlie hebdoYour assertion is totally inaccurate. You may know how to drive a locomotive but you are ignorant about Charlie Hebdo. Read the short Wiki article and try to comprehend it. It's not difficult.
My point was charlie hebdo is more widely known as a mass murder than a satirical publication which makes your choice of screen name bizzare.
charlie hebdoMao was a horrible person. I had the privilege to discuss him with his personal physician, a Dr. Li. Mao used addictive drugs, was a pedophile, as well as being responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent people, including some Americans. But you like his slogans. I wonder why?
No need to wonder. Despite his atrocities etc. his quote is quite accurate.
All genuine knowledge results from direct experience don't you agree?
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