jeffhergertPS. It should be noted that the knuckles are the weakest link for a reason. It's (usually) a lot easier changing a knuckle instead of a drawbar.
Hence the stories of knuckle farms at spots where they frequently fail.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Paul_D_North_Jr zugmann SD60MAC9500 Since these monster bulk trains are the new norm. Maybe it's time to start creating drawbarred 3, or 5 packs of these hoppers. What's the advantage? Good point. Any coupler is going to be 'the weak link in the chain'. Drawbars greatly reduce the number of opportunities, but the adjoining coupler isn't going to be any stronger and may then be the next point of failure. - PDN.
zugmann SD60MAC9500 Since these monster bulk trains are the new norm. Maybe it's time to start creating drawbarred 3, or 5 packs of these hoppers. What's the advantage?
SD60MAC9500
What's the advantage?
Good point. Any coupler is going to be 'the weak link in the chain'. Drawbars greatly reduce the number of opportunities, but the adjoining coupler isn't going to be any stronger and may then be the next point of failure.
- PDN.
Not to mention the pin that holds the drawbar in. Often when a drawbar comes out, the pin has come out. Other times, a lot more than just the pin has been torn up.
Last night, I was on a 12000' manifest. We were stopped because a couple of trains ahead where having problems, with no way around them in Council Bluffs/Omaha. One was a 16000' double coal train. Before leaving, the out going dispatcher notified us that we were going to exchange trains with the coal train crew, once they could bring us along side them.
We still sat for another hour or so, when we heard the new dispatcher tell a crew cabbing down to get a train coming up from Kansas City that they were going to get the coal train instead, and it's crew was going to cab home. We were going to stay on our original train.
We got out ahead of the coal train. We heard them dial the 9-1-1 call over the radio, they were in emergency going over the top of our largest hill in western Iowa. A train they were meeting found a separation and I think they stopped and fixed the knuckle, while the conductor was still walking the train. They found something else, but not sure if it was another separation. Ultimately, I think I heard they found that an air hose had come apart causing the emergency and the separation(s).
They split the train at the next crew change instead of the planned one farther down the line.
Jeff
PS. It should be noted that the knuckles are the weakest link for a reason. It's (usually) a lot easier changing a knuckle instead of a drawbar.
CShaveRRThe advantage to drawbars over coulplers would be the elimination of knuckles (i.e., the weakest link in the connection). At one time, Wisconsin Electric had some of its cars connected via drawbars into three-unit sets--I presume that the rotary couplers didn't present any problems to dumping the cars one at a time. But I'm pretty sure that most, if not all, of these gons had their couplers restored.
The intrain forces these doubled up coal trains are able to generate and exceed the ability of anything to keep two cars 'coupled' to each other. Be that couplers with normal strength knuckles, couplers with high strength knuckles or drawbars. Knuckles can be repaired in the field with a 'relatively small' amount of delay to the train by the train's own crew. Drawbars, on the other hand, when they fail take a lot of effort from parties in addition to the involved train to get the train back in a movable mode, with or without the affected cars.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The advantage to drawbars over coulplers would be the elimination of knuckles (i.e., the weakest link in the connection). At one time, Wisconsin Electric had some of its cars connected via drawbars into three-unit sets--I presume that the rotary couplers didn't present any problems to dumping the cars one at a time. But I'm pretty sure that most, if not all, of these gons had their couplers restored.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
SD60MAC9500Since these monster bulk trains are the new norm. Maybe it's time to start creating drawbarred 3, or 5 packs of these hoppers.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
CSSHEGEWISCH It would require a rather complex drawbar to put together three or five-car sets of AAR Class GT coal cars when these cars are designed to be emptied in rotary dumpers.
It would require a rather complex drawbar to put together three or five-car sets of AAR Class GT coal cars when these cars are designed to be emptied in rotary dumpers.
Wouldn't be complex whatsoever. Here's a patent from McConway & Torley http://www.freepatentsonline.com/RE33985.html Even then if using a standard drawbar. Dual, multicar dumpers exist. If not packing 3 or 5 together you can create pairs.
Drawbared 'multi-pack' cars only mean set off tracks will need to be longer when the drawbars break or are in other ways rendered inoperative.
If it was made by man - it can break. If it was made by God - it can still break.
jeffhergert They saved a lot of money today. A 14500 foot train got a knuckle, the crew dying on their hours of service. The relief crew gets on and goes about 10 miles where they go into emergency. We are headed their way when we get the word. Approaching them we ask if we can help out. The conductor is already walking, so they ask if we could drop off a knuckle. We only had a single engine, so I suggested to my conductor to check if we had one. We didn't, so we stopped at the head end and grabbed one off their power. Their conductor was a little over a mile back, when he found the separation. We dropped off the knuckle and then continued slowly on. While they put the train together, we see another gap. We go past and tell them the bad news. The mechanic out of our home terminal, only about 15 miles away, is there and he has spare knuckles. Unfortunately, he doesn't have any spare drawbars. And a wrong end drawbar to boot. (I'm thinking the earlier episode stressed the drawbar or the pin that holds it in. The drawbar/pin failed allowing it to come out and going into emergency because of it caused the knuckle to fail.) They were going to split the train at the terminal in 15 miles, but decided to do it there where they were stopped. The two sections of the combined train was actually going to two different power plants. They haven't run as many double coal trains recently. I thought maybe they were moving away from doing that. A few months ago, another got 3 knuckles in one spot. That after previously getting a knuckle earlier in their journey. They ended up splitting that one a little earlier than planned, too. Jeff
They saved a lot of money today. A 14500 foot train got a knuckle, the crew dying on their hours of service. The relief crew gets on and goes about 10 miles where they go into emergency. We are headed their way when we get the word. Approaching them we ask if we can help out. The conductor is already walking, so they ask if we could drop off a knuckle. We only had a single engine, so I suggested to my conductor to check if we had one. We didn't, so we stopped at the head end and grabbed one off their power. Their conductor was a little over a mile back, when he found the separation. We dropped off the knuckle and then continued slowly on. While they put the train together, we see another gap. We go past and tell them the bad news. The mechanic out of our home terminal, only about 15 miles away, is there and he has spare knuckles. Unfortunately, he doesn't have any spare drawbars. And a wrong end drawbar to boot. (I'm thinking the earlier episode stressed the drawbar or the pin that holds it in. The drawbar/pin failed allowing it to come out and going into emergency because of it caused the knuckle to fail.)
They were going to split the train at the terminal in 15 miles, but decided to do it there where they were stopped. The two sections of the combined train was actually going to two different power plants.
They haven't run as many double coal trains recently. I thought maybe they were moving away from doing that. A few months ago, another got 3 knuckles in one spot. That after previously getting a knuckle earlier in their journey. They ended up splitting that one a little earlier than planned, too.
Since these monster bulk trains are the new norm. Maybe it's time to start creating drawbarred 3, or 5 packs of these hoppers.
Jeff, thanks for the quick and informative reply. - PDN.
BaltACD Paul_D_North_Jr Jeff, whenn you're helping out another train like that, do you have to notify or coordinate with the DS? - PDN. Dispatcher will be notified by all parties of what the 'game plan' is. Some of the specific details will be communicated between the crews involved. If it becomes necessary for mandatory directives to be involved - the Dispatcher will issue them as necessary.
Paul_D_North_Jr Jeff, whenn you're helping out another train like that, do you have to notify or coordinate with the DS? - PDN.
Dispatcher will be notified by all parties of what the 'game plan' is. Some of the specific details will be communicated between the crews involved. If it becomes necessary for mandatory directives to be involved - the Dispatcher will issue them as necessary.
Yes, usually, but we didn't ask or tell the dispatcher we were going to help this time. Often the dispatcher will ask if a train can provide some help. Except when the hot trains are around and in the picture. There wasn't anything hot or short on time that was close to us. We only picked up and then dropped off the knuckle.
Today, I noticed the car was set out at the first station behind it. I imagine they used the DP, after unlinking it from the lead, and pulled the wrong ender back to the spur where they placed it. At least it was on CTC/two main track territory. (Where the lead engine stopped from the emergency application, it was only a couple car lengths away from a control point. This minimized how much track was tied up until everything was back together. That is, a single track around the broke down train of 7 miles instead of 18 miles.) I read of a similar double coal train that got a wrong ender down south on a single track main. It was in a place where it wasn't easy to get help to. They blocked a town, and the main track for over 6 hours before getting that mess cleared up.
charlie hebdo If schedules matter for other UP trains - IM, etc. - I wonder what their lost time is costing.
If schedules matter for other UP trains - IM, etc. - I wonder what their lost time is costing.
If they still make their schedule, very little.
An "expensive model collector"
Paul_D_North_JrJeff, whenn you're helping out another train like that, do you have to notify or coordinate with the DS? - PDN.
Jeff, whenn you're helping out another train like that, do you have to notify or coordinate with the DS?
If schedules matter for other UP trains - IM, etc. - I wonder what their lost time is costing. Wasn't it once said that a train not turning a wheel isn't turning a profit?
Electroliner 1935 So much for the savings.
So much for the savings.
But if half the monster trains make it through ok they are still saving money.
'Sigh'
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
I've heard BNSF is also trying some larger coal, and grain trains. 10K wouldn't be a double coal train, but still larger than the more normal 7500 to 8100 foot lengths.
One of the big ones had an undesired emergency the other day. Broke multiple knuckles, never heard the exact number. No roadway close to be able to drive to help, so they used a hi-rail truck to bring in aid.
jeffhergert They've started running the even larger coal trains. One the other day was 295 cars. Jeff
They've started running the even larger coal trains. One the other day was 295 cars.
I don't know if the BNSF's trains through this area class as 'monsters'(?)
But they are getting some pretty regular ones throug here, in So Central Ks.
Both East and Westbounds, some come down from KC area some via ElDorado and others via the line through Newton. Have been unable to count the cars but they seem to be in the 10K length areas. Two to three units on head end, two approx in the middle and one, or two, in DPU. Frequency, seems to be two or three per week.
There's been 4 so far. I think they are here to stay.
I think I might have seen that 269 coal train go through Winfield today but can't confirm. Good luck to Omaha dispatcher 11 getting those monster train through the western burbs of Chicago. I don't think there's a place from Geneva to Elmurst to park a stopped 269 car coal train without blocking a few crossings.
Chris
zardoz jeffhergert I've noticed a couple times going through the bottom of one hill, about 10 mph under track speed, it goes into dynamics until about 1/2 way up the next hill. Jeff, did you actually let the system do it, or were you just observing? And if you did let it, how did it work out?
jeffhergert I've noticed a couple times going through the bottom of one hill, about 10 mph under track speed, it goes into dynamics until about 1/2 way up the next hill.
Jeff, did you actually let the system do it, or were you just observing? And if you did let it, how did it work out?
I let it do it's thing while I watched. As long has it isn't in danger (taking train type, location, etc in consideration) of ripping the train apart, I let it run the show. Upon tie up we're supposed to give feedback and note any problems, and that is what I'll do. Some guys get disgusted and will take manual control when it wants to run slow. I'm in the camp of opinion to give them what they want. Although I don't want to rip the train apart. (There are those who really believe in giving them all they want and will let the EMS tear up a train.) I've had a train separation due to EMS, I won't let that happen again. Mainly out of consideration for the conductor.
About half way up the other side, it came out of dynamics and went into power. The ironic thing is these systems sometimes want to run slow where they should be doing track speed but then want to run fast when they should be slowing down. For example, when approaching speed restrictions. They'll run hard up to the last possible second, then slow down almost to the point where it looks like they'll go in a couple mph over. But they get down in the nick of time.
Can anyone provide the routing of these monster coal trains between S. Morrill, NE and Milwaukee, WI?
jeffhergertI've noticed a couple times going through the bottom of one hill, about 10 mph under track speed, it goes into dynamics until about 1/2 way up the next hill.
No. 3, another 269 car train is on the way.
LEADER (those with auto control feature) and Trip Optimizer are about the same. TO used to be better, but it seems like those integrated with PTC do some strange things. I've noticed a couple times going through the bottom of one hill, about 10 mph under track speed, it goes into dynamics until about 1/2 way up the next hill.
Actually both systems on engines with them integrated into PTC have been hit or miss if they'll even initialize. Some that do won't offer the auto control option, requiring manual control only.
jeffhergert SD70Dude CN just started a new dedicated hotline to report problems with TO.... We used to have a radio call in to go direct to the help desk for EMS (Energy Management Systems) problems. First we had LEADER, then they added Trip Optimizer and then Smart Consist. You explained the problem, they might be able to trouble shoot or they might not. They gave you a ticket # and you were supposed to report all this upon tie-up on a special computer portal. Then PTC came along. The help desk now is for PTC problems. They don't really care about the EMS problems anymore, just report them upon tie-up. It was said at one time they were collecting information on the EMS, especially the LEADER system so they could sue NYAB. It wasn't delivering the level of savings they were told it would. (Smart Consist I believe is completely gone now. I haven't seen an engine with it for a long time. It was the absolute worst of the EMS.) Jeff
SD70Dude CN just started a new dedicated hotline to report problems with TO....
CN just started a new dedicated hotline to report problems with TO....
We used to have a radio call in to go direct to the help desk for EMS (Energy Management Systems) problems. First we had LEADER, then they added Trip Optimizer and then Smart Consist.
You explained the problem, they might be able to trouble shoot or they might not. They gave you a ticket # and you were supposed to report all this upon tie-up on a special computer portal.
Then PTC came along. The help desk now is for PTC problems. They don't really care about the EMS problems anymore, just report them upon tie-up.
It was said at one time they were collecting information on the EMS, especially the LEADER system so they could sue NYAB. It wasn't delivering the level of savings they were told it would. (Smart Consist I believe is completely gone now. I haven't seen an engine with it for a long time. It was the absolute worst of the EMS.)
CN only uses Trip Optimizer.
How do the other two work, and compare to TO?
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