Let me throw something else into the mix.
Ever read Dicken's "A Christmas Carol?" There's a sequence when Scrooge returns home, enters the house (this is after seeing the image of Jacob Marley in the door knocker) and sees a phantom "locomotive hearse" ascending the staircase.
I wondered just what the hell Chuckie Dickens was referring to. A hearse with Stevenson's "Rocket" laid out inside? A steam-propelled hearse? Something cobbled together by Richard Trevethick?
Turns out Dickens used the term "locomotive" in the sense of a vehicle propelled by it's own power. There were no phantom horses drawing the phantom hearse, it was moving of it's own accord.
Interesting bit of Victorian English.
EuclidAlso, as a side note, if you notice, it is common for people to call a locomotive a locomoitive. They see that “o” and “i”, and put them together like “ointment.”
That is something I quite literally have never observed, or thought about... perhaps it is so everywhere! I will have to listen more closely, now that I know it is there.
And start wincing, the same as I do fairly often now when I hear that certain word in the Star-Spangled Banner that isn't supposed to be pronounced 'perilis'...
OvermodAnd start wincing, the same as I do fairly often now when I hear that certain word in the Star-Spangled Banner that isn't supposed to be pronounced 'perilis'...
And how do you pronounce 'perilous' in singing? /ˈperələs/ or ˈper-ə-ləs or per-uh-luhs or /ˈper·ə·ləs/ [all quite similar, BTW]
charlie hebdoAnd how do you pronounce 'perilous' in singing?
I sing the last syllable somewhere between a schwa and 'luhs' -- more of the UH sound and drawl if I'm self-conscious about keeping every shred of that 'lis' out!
And it is the "lis" that was Miss Pennell's problem back in 5th grade. It was one of her pet peeves, like saying "Yoo Ess" instead of United States when you hit the abbreviation. Funny how some stuff sticks with you.
I get a little annoyed when people sing the "Star-Spangled Banner" and leave out "PLAY BALL!" after "...the home of the brave."
Tradition means nothing anymore. Sad.
charlie hebdo Overmod And start wincing, the same as I do fairly often now when I hear that certain word in the Star-Spangled Banner that isn't supposed to be pronounced 'perilis'... And how do you pronounce 'perilous' in singing? /ˈperələs/ or ˈper-ə-ləs or per-uh-luhs or /ˈper·ə·ləs/ [all quite similar, BTW]
Overmod And start wincing, the same as I do fairly often now when I hear that certain word in the Star-Spangled Banner that isn't supposed to be pronounced 'perilis'...
The Irishman was asked if he said "nee-ther" or "nie-ther;" he responded, "I say nay-ther."
At our commemoration of Veterans' Day year before last, we sang the first verse of the Anthem to the accompaniment of a slide show which directed us to sing "what so proudly we held at the twilight's last gleaming.," and the "rocket's red glare" (as though there was only one rocket). I am sure that whoever put the slides together had never heard of Congreve's rockets, which were shot off in great numbers--or knew why the bombs burst in air--because the fuses had been cut too short before they were fired from the mortars.
I really should re-read more carefully before I post.
Johnny
Deggesty charlie hebdo Overmod And start wincing, the same as I do fairly often now when I hear that certain word in the Star-Spangled Banner that isn't supposed to be pronounced 'perilis'... And how do you pronounce 'perilous' in singing? /ˈperələs/ or ˈper-ə-ləs or per-uh-luhs or /ˈper·ə·ləs/ [all quite similar, BTW] Neither. I sing "pe-ril-us." The Irishman was asked if he said "nee-ther" or "nie-ther;" he responded, "I say nay-ther." At our commeoration of Veterans' Day year before last, we sang the first verse of the Anthem to the accompaniment of a slide show which directed us to sing "what so proudly we held at the twilight's last gleaming.," and the "rocket's red glare" (as though there was only one rocket). I am sure that whoever put the slides together had never heard of Congreve's rockets, which were shot off in great numbers--or knew why the bombs burst in air--because the fuses had been cut too short before they were fired from the mortars. I really should re-read more carefully before I post.
Neither. I sing "pe-ril-us."
At our commeoration of Veterans' Day year before last, we sang the first verse of the Anthem to the accompaniment of a slide show which directed us to sing "what so proudly we held at the twilight's last gleaming.," and the "rocket's red glare" (as though there was only one rocket). I am sure that whoever put the slides together had never heard of Congreve's rockets, which were shot off in great numbers--or knew why the bombs burst in air--because the fuses had been cut too short before they were fired from the mortars.
Remember - English speaking civilizations are separated by a common language that is spoken in uncommonly different ways.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Da best! Jim Cornelison and my beloved Blackhawks
We won that the Cup that year too in thrilling unbelievable fashion. 2 goals in 17 seconds, one with the net empty and only a minute to go. 2-1 Boston became 3-2 Chicago in 17 seconds. I still get weak.
They say Jim's rendering of the Star Spangled Banner is good for 10 extra wins a year.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fscg_BH9R1U
Been listening to the 'perilous' part and I think that's the way Overmod sings it but likely Jim's has less twang. I don't hear 'ilous' but do hear 'ulous'
It is wonderful to hear the Anthem sung without "interpretation" by the person sho thinks he/she knows how the melody should sound.
Granted "From Ancreon on High" (the name of the tune as it was sung many,many years ago) is not easy to sing--but it is the tune to which Francis Scott Key's poem was set for singing--but that is no reason for mutilating it because of personal whim.
When someone tried to sing the Anthem before the last national college football championship game, I did not at first recognize what the egoist was trying to sing; when I realized what he was mutilating, I turned the sound off until he had closed his mouth.
The choral group that my granddaughter has been with for the past couple of years (it goes away after her eighth-grade graduation or the trip to Washington, D.C., whichever comes second) sang at the beginning of the game of Peoria's professional hockey team last week. The melody was there, but there were some startling harmonies. On the other hand, Kates has done it before as a solo, and the melody is all there.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
OK everyone, here's the Gold Standard as far as singing "The Star-Spangled Banner."
The great Robert Merrill! Everyone who's a New York Yankees fan know who HE is!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmcd0V-7SK4
THAT'S how you do it!
He could have been a ball player himself, but went into opera instead. On the other hand, he WAS an honorary Yankee, so he didn't do too badly!
By the way, have any of you heard the original 18th Century drinking song the melody comes from? Here it is, "To Anacreon in Heaven."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydAIdVKv84g
Can't you just see the Founding Fathers hoisting a few in Philadelphia's City Tavern in 1776 and belting it out? If they only knew...
Miningman Da best! Jim Cornelison and my beloved Blackhawks We won that the Cup that year too in thrilling unbelievable fashion. 2 goals in 17 seconds, one with the net empty and only a minute to go. 2-1 Boston became 3-2 Chicago in 17 seconds. I still get weak. They say Jim's rendering of the Star Spangled Banner is good for 10 extra wins a year. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fscg_BH9R1U Been listening to the 'perilous' part and I think that's the way Overmod sings it but likely Jim's has less twang. I don't hear 'ilous' but do hear 'ulous'
Jim sould have retired about 2017. He often sounds quite ragged, over-blowing.
Merrill sounded great!
Charlie must be a Rangers fan.. oh well it's only been 25 years and patience is a virtue.
25 years is a whole lot shorter than their last wait!
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
ORNHOOI am mildly surprised that none of the 43 replies to this thread have mentioned the word "unit", as in " five engines MUed (Multiple Unit; there's that word again") together constitutes a five unit locomotive".
I think that if the individual "units" were coupled with "Drawbars" then most would consider it to be as you say, "a five unit locomotive", but if they were coupled with standard couplers, then it would be "five locomotives" or "five units".
Otherwise, would a locomotive on each end of a single boxcar be considered a single unit if they were operated together as a single motive power via radio instead of cables... or if the car between was a tank for fuel for the engines? How about 2 boxcars? Or 100?
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Commenting on a couple of posts here....
An engine does have to use power, but doesn't have to use fuel. Eli Whitney's cotton engine (commonly called the "cotton gin") used human power, but was still considered an engine.
I've never in my life heard someone pronounce "locomotive" like "loco-moi-tive", but then I live in the Midwest. Maybe it's common in New Joisey?
Re Dickens, locomotive does basically mean 'self-propelled' or 'able to move under it's own power', that's why steam engines running on tracks were called locomotives. Earlier, cars on rails had to be pulled by animal power.
BTW Dickens was a passenger on one of the earliest railway accidents in the U.K. It was doubly problematic for him because he was travelling with his girlfriend - not with his wife and kids - and had to come up with a quick cover story.
[quote user="Semper Vaporo"]I think that if the individual "units" were coupled with "Drawbars" then most would consider it to be as you say, "a five unit locomotive", but if they were coupled with standard couplers, then it would be "five locomotives" or "five units". [/quote
IIRC this was a bone of contention between the railroads on one side and the engineers (and firemen's) unions back in the forties and fifties: if the tonnage required five GP7's to get it over the road, was each Geep a "locomotive" requiring an engineer in each of the five cabs, or were they "units" of a "multiple unit locomotive" that could be controlled by a single engineer in the lead "unit"cab?
BTW, I have wondered if the decision had gone the other way would railroads have turned to massive "single unit locomotives" like the Baldwin Centipede?
ORNHOOSemper VaporoI think that if the individual "units" were coupled with "Drawbars" then most would consider it to be as you say, "a five unit locomotive", but if they were coupled with standard couplers, then it would be "five locomotives" or "five units". IIRC this was a bone of contention between the railroads on one side and the engineers (and firemen's) unions back in the forties and fifties: if the tonnage required five GP7's to get it over the road, was each Geep a "locomotive" requiring an engineer in each of the five cabs, or were they "units" of a "multiple unit locomotive" that could be controlled by a single engineer in the lead "unit"cab? BTW, I have wondered if the decision had gone the other way would railroads have turned to massive "single unit locomotives" like the Baldwin Centipede?
Semper VaporoI think that if the individual "units" were coupled with "Drawbars" then most would consider it to be as you say, "a five unit locomotive", but if they were coupled with standard couplers, then it would be "five locomotives" or "five units".
The Baldwin Centipede did not perform, thus its demise.
Railroads that had contract issues with multiple unit operation, just applied letter - Engine 222 - 222A - 222B - 222C - engineer was operating a single locomotive 222 A B & C. Gamesmanship has always been a part of railroad labor agreements. Neither the crafts or management are as dumb as each other think.
IIRC, with the Santa Fe it was "L" (lead), A, B, C. Same concept, though.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
After reading all the replies to the OP's inquiry, no one made mention of the hundreds of SD40T-2 and SD45T-2s fielded by Cotton Belt and Southern Pacific and, to a lesser extent Rio Grande, that roamed this land, known far and wide as "Tunnel Motors".
zardozA "locomotive" is what we take photos of; an "engine" is what makes the locomotive move.
In general parlance, though, locomotive, engine, and motor are used more or less interchangeably.
The commuter railroad that employs me calls a cab car an engine when it's the lead unit of a train. I suppose other systems do likewise.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
In my 80's now and the son of a NYC Brakeman, I learned early that Reading wasn't "Read"-ing", but "Red-ing", and Mallet was French and pronounced "Mal-Lay" and every NYC Niagra Engineer I ever ran into always pronounced it as "Box-Pox" just like that and no "Spokes". Maybe it was because of the speed they pronounced it that it was that way. BOX-POX flows while Box-Spokes doesn't! Trying to "ed-e-cate" Monopoly players to pronounce Reading correctly was the one that tips my bucket though.
"Box-Pox?" Oh brother.
Well, one thing I've learned in life is NEVER dispute the guys who were THERE.
Pick the pronunciation you like boys, no-one can say you're wrong.
I, for one, from the first time I saw the desciption--I do not know how many years ago--thought it is POCK and not POKE--there was no real description, just pictures and the name.
Royce Bros. Circusevery NYC Niagra Engineer I ever ran into always pronounced it as "Box-Pox" just like that and no "Spokes".
I am tempted to say there's no such thing as a Niagra Engineer, either -- either here or in Mexico. They were NIAGARAs both places, no matter how pathetically railfans might spell.
The "Boxpox" thing was fairly common, I think. It has the charm of the assonance and alliteration, even if it is more reminiscent of an ailment than a technical achievement. One has to wonder, however, how carefully the enginemen actually read the "word" on paper to come up with it. (Or cared -- railroad men not likely being tolerant of the kind of cutesie silliness represented by such a tradename.)
For some reason I think there were ads for the centers that had a long mark over the second "O" to help the hapless figure out how the advertising boys expected their clever little term to be pronounced. I do know it took me a very long time saying 'pock' before I figured out what it had to be, though ... everyone else was saying it that way, so it had to be right.
Except that it didn't.
. (What in H-E-double toothpicks is wrong with this crap software double-posting so many of my posts???)
Overmod. (What in H-E-double toothpicks is wrong with this crap software double-posting so many of my posts???)
My experience - it takes so long for your screen to register the action after you hit the 'Submit Your Reply' buttion that you percieve that the initial hit didn't take and hit it again - the first hit added your reply to the data base, but you didn't know it.
OvermodI am tempted to say there's no such thing as a Niagra Engineer
But certainly, these days, there are some Viagra engineers out there. Conductors too.
Still in training.
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