I thought this was pretty humorous both sides could use a little work on what to say and not to say to each other.
This specific derailment might not have been due to bad track but E&LS really does need to fix up its track.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBY9BaLflv0
Another whiteout photo.
A thought I had was a safety question. When the worker was under the locomotive, was a "THREE POINT PROTECTION" rule in efect? I didn't hear any conversation that indicated he had any protection from the equipment being moved.
Electroliner 1935 A thought I had was a safety question. When the worker was under the locomotive, was a "THREE POINT PROTECTION" rule in efect? I didn't hear any conversation that indicated he had any protection from the equipment being moved.
Might have blue flagged the control stand.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 Electroliner 1935 A thought I had was a safety question. When the worker was under the locomotive, was a "THREE POINT PROTECTION" rule in efect? I didn't hear any conversation that indicated he had any protection from the equipment being moved. Might have blue flagged the control stand.
From my observation of the rail employees in the video - I don't think they ever heard of Blue Flag or Three Step Protection. Very unprofessional in my opinion.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Just an observation; From the 'greetings' and ensuing conversations. My guess, is there there is probably some"History"; between the person with the camera, and the railroad employees(?). Agendas/ Confrontational? ? Most likely/You Betcha'....
Another possibility: railroad ROWS generally have a specific distance from the centerline of the tracks {established for taxation purposes?} The cameraman trespassing, techincally, quite possible (?)
I'd leave that up to someone who has that kind of expertise, possibly, mudchicken(?)
It looked to me like they were using the come-along to turn the truck closer to the rail.
samfp1943tracks {established for taxation purposes?} The cameraman trespassing, techincally, quite possible (?)
If the county real property/GIS information on-line is to believed, the road actual IS owned by the railroad.
However, since it appears that the railroad has allowed use by the public, and the road is apparently maintained by the municipality, one could probably argue in court that the railroad has essentially given up sole claim to the property. There's a term for that, but it escapes me.
That might get a person out of a ticket, if one were forthcoming, but not without a warning. And if the railroad wants to prevent further such issues, they're going to have to secure the land, IMHO.
In the end, this guy might just suffer the wrath of those who have been using that road, should the railroad decide to exert their ownership and close it off.
The fellow shooting the video deserves any and all credit/blame for anything that was handed to him. He copped an attitude and got it right back.
Not sure if the fact that the State Police called him at home indicates prior engagements.
I'd cut the railroaders some slack.. they were rerailing a locomotive in the cold dead of winter with only limited tools at their disposal. Nerves likely frayed to begin with..Cameraman could have been friendlier too..
Not saying who is right or wrong (probably both are guilty somewhat), but I'm usually suspicious when a video has a link to donate to its creator.
Could be a (yet another) case of creating drama for views/money.
And isn't teh E&LS the railroad with the Baldwin sharks, and was known for their hostility toward railfans due to prior events (trespassing/stealing)?
And tree: adverse property rights?
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
E&LS is the RR that had or has? the Sharks and no they don't have much affection for rail fans.
Ulrich I'd cut the railroaders some slack.. they were rerailing a locomotive in the cold dead of winter with only limited tools at their disposal. Nerves likely frayed to begin with..Cameraman could have been friendlier too..
As a former Class 1 railroader, I have a couple of thoughts...
What was my employer's attitude toward me speaking to a fellow employee in that manner? An aggressive, foul-mouthed, argumentative incident with someone I worked with. I can tell you no one I worked with ever acted this way and if they had and it either was reported to or overheard by a manager, do you know what would have happened? Rhymes with write-up or Investigation.
So, given that insight into the culture expected of my employer, how would the carrier like me to speak to the public? I would like to think that my employer expected and demanded more of me and my co-workers than silly bickering and threatening the public with expletives. If you don't know how to properly and professionally speak to the public then stick to the facts and do not engage in a back and forth, right? If he believed that the guy was trespassing then he should have told him that he was standing on railroad property rather than stating the road was his, right? Is he the owner of the railroad? My train was "my" train informally but for purposes of legality, "my" train was my employer's train and I was merely being employed to operate it. Taking an argument using personalized language escalates the confrontation. He should have told duck dynasty dude that he was trespassing on railroad property, perhaps told him a couple more times and then informed him he was going to contact his manager or the police, whichever was appropriate for his situation.
I can tell you in my class 1 operation, if I had needed to report someone for trespassing, I would have either reported it to the dispatcher or to the yardmaster or MAYBE management but we all know those guys aren't constantly available via radio. I would provide what information was asked of me but then it would fall on the dispatcher's or yardmaster's discretion to call the cops. If a manager was around then maybe they would be called to run the trespasser off the property.
Finally, I worked with the public for 15 years prior to my railroad career so I know a thing or two about speaking to people to accomplish what is needed and I know how NOT to speak to people. The bottom line is the railroader is at work and being paid to do a job and the alleged trespasser is not.
As for frayed nerves...not an excuse to be unprofessional. In railroading, not being professional will hurt or kill you. Frayed nerves will get you hurt or killed or someone else.
zugmannAnd tree: adverse property rights?
I believe the term is actually "adverse possession," but the effect is the same.
And this gets to the heart of the problem.
The photographer thought he had every right to be on that road, based on previous use, maintenance by the municipality, etc, etc.
In that regard, the railroad is at fault - they've allowed open access to that stretch of road. Odds are it's not posted, and there are no barriers.
It's no wonder the photographer didn't believe the RR employee - who appears to have been exactly right.
Still, the photographer's attitude right from the first exchange left a lot to be desired. I'd probably get him busted just to teach him a lesson...
Edit - I sent a PM to the photographer suggesting he check with his local real property folks. He sounded like he is now aware that the subject road belongs to the railroad, and said that there are other issues involving the ROW in the area as well.
Wonder if MC will get involved...
tree68Still, the photographer's attitude right from the first exchange left a lot to be desired. I'd probably get him busted just to teach him a lesson...
The photographer came on strong, but it was the railroader who began the hostile confrontation with the first "f-bomb." That was incredibly petty and childish even if the photographer was trespassing. And any normal person is going to assme that is a public street.
tree68 Edit - I sent a PM to the photographer suggesting he check with his local real property folks. He sounded like he is now aware that the subject road belongs to the railroad, and said that there are other issues involving the ROW in the area as well. Wonder if MC will get involved...
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Small town.. likely met before..
Justicar Ulrich I'd cut the railroaders some slack.. they were rerailing a locomotive in the cold dead of winter with only limited tools at their disposal. Nerves likely frayed to begin with..Cameraman could have been friendlier too.. As a former Class 1 railroader, I have a couple of thoughts... What was my employer's attitude toward me speaking to a fellow employee in that manner? An aggressive, foul-mouthed, argumentative incident with someone I worked with. I can tell you no one I worked with ever acted this way and if they had and it either was reported to or overheard by a manager, do you know what would have happened? Rhymes with write-up or Investigation. So, given that insight into the culture expected of my employer, how would the carrier like me to speak to the public? I would like to think that my employer expected and demanded more of me and my co-workers than silly bickering and threatening the public with expletives. If you don't know how to properly and professionally speak to the public then stick to the facts and do not engage in a back and forth, right? If he believed that the guy was trespassing then he should have told him that he was standing on railroad property rather than stating the road was his, right? Is he the owner of the railroad? My train was "my" train informally but for purposes of legality, "my" train was my employer's train and I was merely being employed to operate it. Taking an argument using personalized language escalates the confrontation. He should have told duck dynasty dude that he was trespassing on railroad property, perhaps told him a couple more times and then informed him he was going to contact his manager or the police, whichever was appropriate for his situation. I can tell you in my class 1 operation, if I had needed to report someone for trespassing, I would have either reported it to the dispatcher or to the yardmaster or MAYBE management but we all know those guys aren't constantly available via radio. I would provide what information was asked of me but then it would fall on the dispatcher's or yardmaster's discretion to call the cops. If a manager was around then maybe they would be called to run the trespasser off the property. Finally, I worked with the public for 15 years prior to my railroad career so I know a thing or two about speaking to people to accomplish what is needed and I know how NOT to speak to people. The bottom line is the railroader is at work and being paid to do a job and the alleged trespasser is not. As for frayed nerves...not an excuse to be unprofessional. In railroading, not being professional will hurt or kill you. Frayed nerves will get you hurt or killed or someone else.
Overkill.
Ulrich Small town.. likely met before..
So what?
Euclid Ulrich Small town.. likely met before.. So what?
Might explain what initiated the hostilities..
EuclidThe photographer came on strong, but it was the railroader who began the hostile confrontation with the first "f-bomb." That was incredibly petty and childish even if the photographer was trespassing. And any normal person is going to assme that is a public street.
According to the video. But who knows how the video was edited or what transpired before the video was shot. We are only hearing one side - the side with the link for donations.
Dupe post............software malfunction.
samfp1943Another possibility: railroad ROWS generally have a specific distance from the centerline of the tracks {established for taxation purposes?} The cameraman trespassing, techincally, quite possible (?)
Not always. Land grant ROW's are usually 200 feet across, where the railroad decides to place the first track is up to them but I don't believe they always have placed it in the center of the granted ROW. Could be wrong though and I have no clue if this is a Land Grant ROW or if it was purchased land. Along the Land Grant ROW the RR were given alternating plots of land on either side of the track for the purposes of selling, renting or harvesting for additional revenue. A good portion of that land was plotted with roads and sold as townships to settlers so it could very well be the road is on part of the alternating plots of land and the railroad owns the road to the other shoulder.
Generally in rural areas a town or city will refuse to plow privately owned roads. This is the case in SE Wisconsin at least. The homeowners have to chip in and pay for the plow service. The guy has no clue who plowed the road and making the assumption the road is public because it is plowed is really stupid as well. He actually has to go to city hall and ask, I would not rely on Google Earth for accuracy as he did because they do not bulid Google Earth based on individual land surveys, it is based on larger topo maps.
CMStPnPThe guy has no clue who plowed the road and making the assumption the road is public because it is plowed is really stupid as well. He actually has to go to city hall and ask, I would not rely on Google Earth for accuracy as he did because they do not bulid Google Earth based on individual land surveys, it is based on larger topo maps.
Unless he sees the County or City plow plowing the road, or has seen County or City repair crews working on it during the periods it isn't snow covered. Since it appears the property he resides in overlooks the road I would expect him to know the difference between a contractor plowing or the county.
CMStPnP He actually has to go to city hall and ask, I would not rely on Google Earth for accuracy as he did because they do not bulid Google Earth based on individual land surveys, it is based on larger topo maps.
I found the official on-line GIS for that location. Even given a "finagle factor," the road definitely appears to be on railroad property. To make absolutely sure, a body would want to get into the print maps at the real property office.
That doesn't mean the town or county doesn't plow - otherwise they'd have to turn around at the official end of the road (N 45.79564 W 88.06469).
This is where the adverse possession factor comes in - if the railroad has allowed the public to use the road unhindered, with no posting, barriers, etc, I would opine they'd have trouble making a trespass stick. And most maps show it as a continuation of a street.
That said, both of the parties involved could have handled things better. Discretion is usually the better part of valor, as they say.
Ulrich Justicar Ulrich I'd cut the railroaders some slack.. they were rerailing a locomotive in the cold dead of winter with only limited tools at their disposal. Nerves likely frayed to begin with..Cameraman could have been friendlier too.. As a former Class 1 railroader, I have a couple of thoughts... What was my employer's attitude toward me speaking to a fellow employee in that manner? An aggressive, foul-mouthed, argumentative incident with someone I worked with. I can tell you no one I worked with ever acted this way and if they had and it either was reported to or overheard by a manager, do you know what would have happened? Rhymes with write-up or Investigation. So, given that insight into the culture expected of my employer, how would the carrier like me to speak to the public? I would like to think that my employer expected and demanded more of me and my co-workers than silly bickering and threatening the public with expletives. If you don't know how to properly and professionally speak to the public then stick to the facts and do not engage in a back and forth, right? If he believed that the guy was trespassing then he should have told him that he was standing on railroad property rather than stating the road was his, right? Is he the owner of the railroad? My train was "my" train informally but for purposes of legality, "my" train was my employer's train and I was merely being employed to operate it. Taking an argument using personalized language escalates the confrontation. He should have told duck dynasty dude that he was trespassing on railroad property, perhaps told him a couple more times and then informed him he was going to contact his manager or the police, whichever was appropriate for his situation. I can tell you in my class 1 operation, if I had needed to report someone for trespassing, I would have either reported it to the dispatcher or to the yardmaster or MAYBE management but we all know those guys aren't constantly available via radio. I would provide what information was asked of me but then it would fall on the dispatcher's or yardmaster's discretion to call the cops. If a manager was around then maybe they would be called to run the trespasser off the property. Finally, I worked with the public for 15 years prior to my railroad career so I know a thing or two about speaking to people to accomplish what is needed and I know how NOT to speak to people. The bottom line is the railroader is at work and being paid to do a job and the alleged trespasser is not. As for frayed nerves...not an excuse to be unprofessional. In railroading, not being professional will hurt or kill you. Frayed nerves will get you hurt or killed or someone else. Overkill.
Non sequitur
BaltACDUnless he sees the County or City plow plowing the road, or has seen County or City repair crews working on it during the periods it isn't snow covered. Since it appears the property he resides in overlooks the road I would expect him to know the difference between a contractor plowing or the county. Add Quote to your Post
Yes, in rural parts of Wisconsin it can be a real mess of who owns what....
Right after I left the Army and returned to Wisconsin I went to work as a School Bus Driver. A lot of the roads in SE Wisconsin are privately constructed and privately owned in the Lake Country area at least West of Milwaukee. Some of the railroad relationships in regards to who maintains the railroad crossings in those cases were pretty bizarre (which is an issue when you drive a School Bus as some of the RR crossings were just so unacceptably dangerous in winter the School Bus company prohibited using some of the roads).
Anyways a lot of the private roads just had crossbucks, some had automated flashing lights but none of them had gates. Private railroad crossings I think the railroad financial contribution to maintenence was almost minimal. If the road was owned by the county they plowed it and had the arrangement to see that the crossing was maintained in partnership with the railroad.
I remember one crossing on approach was at the bottom of a steep hill, zero visibility down the tracks in either direction, if the flashing lights did not work your dead. In the winter if the hill was icy and a train was comming, likely dead as well as your car or bus would slide onto the crossing with your brakes locked. I got the bus company to change the route after crossing it just once with a school bus. It was the C&NW mainline now UPRR. I am sure the crossing is still there and still unfixed. It was on approach to one of the Lakes West of Milwaukee on a private road system used to build a subdivision on..........which probably used to be all former railroad property that was plotted and sold to raise money to build the line.
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