blue streak 1What is the thinking about not allowing dynamic brakes if the train has an emergency brake application?
At the very least, if some dolt in (mis)management feels the need for such stupidity, the union should insist that there be a procedure to disable the feature. It is as stupid as having a PC switch cut motive power during an emergency application.
I cannot even fathom any reason for having the DB cut out during an emergency application. The term "emergency" in of itself implies that retarding forces as strong as possible are needed. And if the "logic" is that it is to reduce buff forces, by the time the dynamics cycle from power to braking, the train's air brakes would have applied throughout the entire train, minimizing excessive buff.
Here is a runaway caused by brake cylinder leakage on the QNS&L. The engineer found that service applications were not holding on a descending grade, so he made an emergency application and stopped. He got off to set hand brakes and after an hour or so, the emergency application released due to leakage past the piston seals in many of the brake cylinders. The train began to roll because many of the hand brakes also failed to hold it due to hand brake mechanisms being poorly maintained. The engineer was able to get back on the engines as they went past him, and he was able to control the runaway until it eventually stopped below the grade.
So there were two different braking defects; one that defeated the initial emergency application, and another that defeated the handbrake securement backup.
http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2011/r11q0056/r11q0056.pdf
There is a report that the train was parked by the previous crew by appling the emergency brakes. evidently the train remained in emergency until the new crew boarded and the train then started to move because air had bled away. There fore no air brakes. The new crew was unable to engage dynamics because of the train in emergency. What is the thinking about not allowing dynamic brakes if the train has an emergency brake application?
The time has come and passed for the railroads to at least join the 20th century on a brake system that if it loses the air pressure it's still not going to let people die. What's the body count now 52 or more from a system that if there is no pressure in the system the train can roll away.
cx500I didn't see that the emergency application was undesired UDE). My impression was that the original crew made that application to ensure the train was held firmly. John
John
It was stated that the crew involved in the incident was a 'relief crew' that took over operation of the train after the original crew had had 'trouble' and expired on the Hours of Service. Trouble, 99.9% of the time on line of road involves the train going into emergency for whatever the reason.
Whenever a train STOPS on high grade territory it must be secured by hand brakes - if air brakes are released, it takes an amount of time for the brake resevoirs to be recharged so that the brakes can be applied again - during the period of time it takes to recharge the brake system the train can become a runaway if not secured by hand brakes.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
FYI.
http://www.okthepk.ca/foamerFiles/mapSpirl.htm
Thank You.
I didn't see that the emergency application was undesired UDE). My impression was that the original crew made that application to ensure the train was held firmly.
I am more curious about whether the dynamic brakes were engaged (on all three units), and that will have to wait until the event recorders can be analysed. I believe after the runaway around 20 years ago the differences between the SD40-2 and the AC4400 controls was highlighted. The older units, when the controller was set to dynamic, would have operative dynamic brakes. The newer units had different "logic", and after an emergency application some of the controls would have to be reset for a brief time before the microprocessors enabled the dynamics to engage. Even with the train brakes released the dynamic brake might have been sufficient to control the rate of acceleration. I will try later to find the link to the TSB report for that accident (no fatalities that time, fortunately).
I will now gladly pass the discussion back to those here who have actual knowledge and experience in running trains. My railroad career was primarily from the rails down, not directly involved in what ran on top of the rails.
SD70Dude Ulrich I'm not sure I understand..the crew were already aboard and the train began to roll on its own? Would the engineer then notice this and apply the brakes.. or is it already too late at that point? From the reports so far it sounds like the train had been stopped with the air brakes in emergency for a couple hours, and then started to roll. If that is true then there would be no more brake left for the engineer to apply.
Ulrich I'm not sure I understand..the crew were already aboard and the train began to roll on its own? Would the engineer then notice this and apply the brakes.. or is it already too late at that point?
I'm not sure I understand..the crew were already aboard and the train began to roll on its own? Would the engineer then notice this and apply the brakes.. or is it already too late at that point?
From the reports so far it sounds like the train had been stopped with the air brakes in emergency for a couple hours, and then started to roll. If that is true then there would be no more brake left for the engineer to apply.
Question then becomes - did the crew that experienced the UDE begin applying hand brakes to the train as they began their inspection from the head end.
Have no idea of CP rules for the territory. in the mountain territories I worked crews were required to tie on 50% hand brakes starting from the head end - 120 car in train required 'at least' 60 hand brakes - more if it was detirmined as air was being released that on 50% was not securing the train. To get the train moving, retainers would be set on the head part of the train as the air restored and a full service application was made to get the Conductor back on the head end.
SD70Dude Full video of the TSB press conference this morning: https://www.facebook.com/cbccalgary/videos/362320107953710/?hc_location=ufi
Full video of the TSB press conference this morning:
https://www.facebook.com/cbccalgary/videos/362320107953710/?hc_location=ufi
THANK YOU! for posting that.
In last 2 Minutes of video he mentions the Retainers! and explains how they work!
Merci, Mon Vieux!!
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
NDG In the Live Broadcast when they went to the ' Phone In ' part of the programme, the gentleman said the train ' Had seventy-five 75 % ( percent ) of it's Retainers set in the High Pressure Position.' Thank You.
In the Live Broadcast when they went to the ' Phone In ' part of the programme, the gentleman said the train ' Had seventy-five 75 % ( percent ) of it's Retainers set in the High Pressure Position.'
Near the end another reporter said he had heard "there were reports that the engineer or crew did not want to take this train". It was not clear where, when or which crew (original or relief) may have said that.
Carmichael's response was that the TSB did not have that information yet, but he also stated in the press conference that they had not yet been able to interview the train's original crew.
SD70Dude Ulrich I'm not sure I understand..the crew were already aboard and the train began to roll on its own? Would the engineer then notice this and apply the brakes.. or is it already too late at that point? From the reports so far it sounds like the train had been stopped with the air brakes in emergency for a couple hours, and then started to roll. If that is true then there would be no more brake left for the engineer to apply. Then perhaps the TOS rules should be modified to allow moving to a safe place to change crews.
BaltACD SD70Dude FYI, preliminary report into another runaway incident in cold weather, from last winter: http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/medias-media/sur-safe/letter/rail/2018/r18e0007/r18e0007-617-04-18.asp Pictures of the derailed cars indicated that they appeared to be of CP ownership. With that being the case, I doubt that they have been in storage for any period of time during the harvest and shipping season.
SD70Dude FYI, preliminary report into another runaway incident in cold weather, from last winter: http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/medias-media/sur-safe/letter/rail/2018/r18e0007/r18e0007-617-04-18.asp
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/medias-media/sur-safe/letter/rail/2018/r18e0007/r18e0007-617-04-18.asp
Pictures of the derailed cars indicated that they appeared to be of CP ownership. With that being the case, I doubt that they have been in storage for any period of time during the harvest and shipping season.
I agree. My point was that extreme cold exposes problems that would not be apparent at warmer temperatures.
Started to roll on its own? Boy this sounds similar to another run away at Lac-megantic (sp?). We again say any location where trains are parked on a slope for what ever reason needs to be protected by a split rail derail. Our engineer friends can tell us how easy the possibility of air bleeding away especially in cold weather can happen.
What if this train instead had been one of the many petroleum trains that travels this line?
CALGARY – Investigators with the Transportation Safety Board of Canada say the Canadian Pacific grain train that derailed in British Columbia on Monday, killing three railroaders, “started to move on its own” following a crew change...
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2019/02/05-investigators-cp-grain-train-started-to-move-on-its-own
Brian Schmidt, Editor, Classic Trains magazine
SD70Dude I watched it as it was being broadcast live, with no issues. Looks like CTV only gave the live broadcast, and has not permanently uploaded footage of the press conference. The Global News link I posted is the first few minutes of the conference, the rest was Carmichael answering questions from reporters (some were indeed pretty dumb), most of his answers fell into the "we do not have that information yet" category, as I would expect at this early point in the investigation.
I watched it as it was being broadcast live, with no issues. Looks like CTV only gave the live broadcast, and has not permanently uploaded footage of the press conference.
The Global News link I posted is the first few minutes of the conference, the rest was Carmichael answering questions from reporters (some were indeed pretty dumb), most of his answers fell into the "we do not have that information yet" category, as I would expect at this early point in the investigation.
SD70DudeFYI, preliminary report into another runaway incident in cold weather, from last winter: http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/medias-media/sur-safe/letter/rail/2018/r18e0007/r18e0007-617-04-18.asp
Still (1:25pm Central) nothing in the CTV clip 'window' for the conference that was to have been provided live at 11:00. Some video from a TSB spokesman seems to be out in breaking news; I think this is the Eric Collard clip CTV previously ran, not something 'new' from the conference. Perhaps one of you has better access to Canadian streaming video, or I'm missing something about how to access their link:
https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=373266#1603617
(you may have to unmute this via the control at the bottom of the frame once it has started) At 2:00 Central this window went back to saying "there are no live events -- please check back later" so perhaps there was something running that I couldn't see.
Apparently the train had been stopped for 2 hours when it 'started moving on its own' just as the crew had reboarded; they 'were not ready to take over' (or words to that effect).
One newswoman tried to make something of the report that the train was exceeding the speed limit for the location where it derailed, which would be pathetic if it weren't so typical.
FYI, preliminary report into another runaway incident in cold weather, from last winter:
What the TSB knows so far:
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-investigations/rail/2019/r19c0015/r19c0015.asp?fbclid=IwAR3WNZGBxSBnCcSBjbY0rnF5mpTImFwX_203FC4ircSJauQ0FLBAGoXGQss
First part of the press conference, the TSB's statement:
https://globalnews.ca/news/4926096/field-train-derailment/
Lets waot to see what the black boxes tell investigators. When they are recovered and analyzed they will provide a wealth of information.
Caldreamer
I thought the UP unit was a remote.
CTV is now saying the conference will start at 1:00 PM ET (11:00 in Calgary).
Official Transport Canada blurb:
R19C0015Date:Occurrence Type:Time:ACCIDENT Accident/Incident Type: MAIN-TRACK TRAIN DERAILMENT2019-02-04 01:00 Classification: BEING ASSESSEDProvince: Nearest Town/City:Subdivision Owner:Subdivision Name:BRITISH COLUMBIA YOHOCP - CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY CO.LAGGAN Subdivision Mileage: 130.60Location:Details:DG Cars Involved:Train Operator:Yard Name:0CP - CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY CO.DG Released: 0Spur Name: Spur Mileage:Injuries:Fatal: 3 Serious: 0 Minor: 0Occurrence Summary:CP train traveling west on the Laggan Sub. with distributed power (1-1-1) and handling 112L, 14418T, 6677F, ran uncontrolled andderailed 30-40 grain cars at Mile 130.6. Three employee fatalities reported by RCMP. One locomotive on its side in a creek. CPhazmat team responding. Three TSB investigators deployed.
SD70Dude The lead locomotive is in the Kicking Horse River somewhere, I can't find it in any of the photos or footage.
The Calgary CTVnews site now has an aerial picture of the lead unit in the river; they note it fell 'over 60m' to get there.
There is a flag to WATCH LIVE AT 11: the TSB initial report will be presented. As of 11:00 Central this morning the link is still 'black', leading me to suspect the presentation is only a couple of hours away if it hasn't already been done.
Brian Schmidt CP CEO on fatal wreck: 'This is a tragedy' FIELD, British Columbia — Canadian Pacific president and CEO Keith Creel called this week’s fatal derailment in British Columbia a “tragedy” and has vowed to figure out what caused a train to derail while descending Kicking Ho... http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2019/02/05-cp-ceo-on-fatal-wreck-this-is-a-tragedy
FIELD, British Columbia — Canadian Pacific president and CEO Keith Creel called this week’s fatal derailment in British Columbia a “tragedy” and has vowed to figure out what caused a train to derail while descending Kicking Ho...
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2019/02/05-cp-ceo-on-fatal-wreck-this-is-a-tragedy
From the video it appears that the train had a UP DPU locomotive in the middle of it.
When the train recorders are recoverd, it will tell the investigators what was goingon on the train. You get a wealth ofinformation from tose black boxes.
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