Do they both operate on the same side of the cab?
British engine drivers operate from the left side of the cab while American engineers operate from the right side.
Never paid much attention - with the CNW adhering to the British left hand running - were their locomotives - both steam and diesel (at least in the 30's, 40's and early 50's set up with the engineer on the left hand side of the cab?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
It is my understand the C&NW left-hand running originated when a second track was laid to the south of the original track--so that people waiting to board did not have to cross the tracks to board. Thus there is no connection with the British practice.
Johnny
Take it from an old C&NW person--Johnny's explanation of C&NW's left-handedness is correct. And I can vouch for the fact that some of the diesel locomotives built in the 1950s and even the late 1940s were built with cabs on the right side.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
DeggestyIt is my understand the C&NW left-hand running originated when a second track was laid to the south of the original track--so that people waiting to board did not have to cross the tracks to board. Thus there is no connection with the British practice.
So CNW built stations ONLY on the North Side of their E-W lines?
BaltACD Deggesty It is my understand the C&NW left-hand running originated when a second track was laid to the south of the original track--so that people waiting to board did not have to cross the tracks to board. Thus there is no connection with the British practice. So CNW built stations ONLY on the North Side of their E-W lines?
Deggesty It is my understand the C&NW left-hand running originated when a second track was laid to the south of the original track--so that people waiting to board did not have to cross the tracks to board. Thus there is no connection with the British practice.
Drivers (proper engineers design locomotives, not drive them) typically sit or stand on the left side of the footplate. A few railroads did design locomotives with the driver's position on the right side of the footplate. However, with the groupings in the 1920s, it was determined that the proper position for the driver was on the left side, as most railways in the United Kingdom arranged their locomotives so that the driver was on that side. Due to economics, some of the right hand drive locomotives were not converted to left hand drive. This required the crew to be extra attentive to their duties, as all signals were placed to be observed from the left side of the footplate. There were several accidents and many near misses on account of drivers mistaking another signal for their own or missing signals due to the fact that they were on a right hand drive locomotive.
It should also be noted that the preferred term for the place where the driver and fireman stand is footplate, not cab. The reason is that many steam locomotives were built without any form of enclosure to protect the driver and fireman in inclement weather. Cabs started to appear on UK locomotives in the late 19th century but were not common until the 20th century.
As for running direction, lines were designated UP and DOWN. UP lines headed to London and DOWN lines headed from London.
As to directions, if you go from London to Oxford, you go up to Oxford. However, we have to be very careful in discussing elevations lest we get into the matter of why a lower berth was higher than an upper berth.
Deggesty As to directions, if you go from London to Oxford, you go up to Oxford. However, we have to be very careful in discussing elevations lest we get into the matter of why a lower berth was higher than an upper berth.
You may go up from London to Oxford, but you do so on a down train running on the down line, and return to London on the up line.
I would usually go from Paddington.
Peter
I had heard that the CNW was designed by British engineers, and this is the reason for the left hand running. Is there any truth to this notion?
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
PJS1I had heard that the CNW was designed by British engineers, and this is the reason for the left hand running. Is there any truth to this notion?
The version I heard ... which for some reason I associate with Freeman Hubbard if anyone wants to delve into fact-checking ... was that the Vanderbilt clan that was involved with financing it in the double-tracking years was enamored of some aspect of British practice. Probably in the same kind of way Leonor Loree could be with locomotive practice. I don't think I've ever seen anything indicating that British engineering was involved, but if you have a source by all means provide it; I for one would find this interesting.
DeggestyAs to directions, if you go from London to Oxford, you go up to Oxford.
Did you get this off GPS Z-axis data? Because it sure doesn't represent how the British handle their 'up' and 'down' railroad conventions. It is NOT that London is physically lower, and it is NOT that most of England and all of Scotland are "up north" of London on a typical Mercator projection map.
I learned it as 'you go up to London because it's more important'. The actual sense behind the convention might, of course, be different from this. But remember that UP is toward London and DOWN away from it. (At least that's the way I now understand it.)
Another thing is, besides left hand drive on locomotives and right hand drive on cars that drive on the left hand side of the road, people in Britain tend to walk on the left, say through the passageways on the London Tube and so forth whereas we in North America tend to walk on the right. But, don't they also have LHD locomotives in France?
Overmod Deggesty As to directions, if you go from London to Oxford, you go up to Oxford. Did you get this off GPS Z-axis data? Because it sure doesn't represent how the British handle their 'up' and 'down' railroad conventions. It is NOT that London is physically lower, and it is NOT that most of England and all of Scotland are "up north" of London on a typical Mercator projection map. I learned it as 'you go up to London because it's more important'. The actual sense behind the convention might, of course, be different from this. But remember that UP is toward London and DOWN away from it. (At least that's the way I now understand it.)
Deggesty As to directions, if you go from London to Oxford, you go up to Oxford.
Overmod PJS1 I had heard that the CNW was designed by British engineers, and this is the reason for the left hand running. Is there any truth to this notion?
That was the story I had heard - its origin I have no idea.
PJS1 Deggesty It is my understand the C&NW left-hand running originated when a second track was laid to the south of the original track--so that people waiting to board did not have to cross the tracks to board. Thus there is no connection with the British practice. I had heard that the CNW was designed by British engineers, and this is the reason for the left hand running. Is there any truth to this notion?
Nope.
The story probably started because many 19th century US railroads, like many US businesses at the time, had investors in Britain. But the investors didn't decide how the railroads were built. Keep in mind Canadian Pacific and Canadian National, who one would think would be heavily influenced by the British, both use right-hand running.
Deggesty Overmod Deggesty As to directions, if you go from London to Oxford, you go up to Oxford. Did you get this off GPS Z-axis data? Because it sure doesn't represent how the British handle their 'up' and 'down' railroad conventions. It is NOT that London is physically lower, and it is NOT that most of England and all of Scotland are "up north" of London on a typical Mercator projection map. I learned it as 'you go up to London because it's more important'. The actual sense behind the convention might, of course, be different from this. But remember that UP is toward London and DOWN away from it. (At least that's the way I now understand it.) No, I was considering the expression used of students at Oxford--they go up to Oxford, just as anyone, no matter the transportaion, goes up to London.
Overmod Deggesty As to directions, if you go from London to Oxford, you go up to Oxford. Did you get this off GPS Z-axis data? Because it sure doesn't represent how the British handle their 'up' and 'down' railroad conventions. It is NOT that London is physically lower, and it is NOT that most of England and all of Scotland are "up north" of London on a typical Mercator projection map. I learned it as 'you go up to London because it's more important'. The actual sense behind the convention might, of course, be different from this. But remember that UP is toward London and DOWN away from it. (At least that's the way I now understand it.) No, I was considering the expression used of students at Oxford--they go up to Oxford, just as anyone, no matter the transportaion, goes up to London.
I think it depends on context - Oxford the school vs. Oxford the city. If you were in Paddington station - London and someone asked where you were going, you would say you were going 'down to Oxford on the Great Western'. If someone asked you where you planning on going to university, you might say you were going 'up to Oxford'.
wjstixYes, the context determines the meaning, just as it does if you said that the upper berth is lower than the lower because it is higher. Deggesty Overmod Deggesty As to directions, if you go from London to Oxford, you go up to Oxford. Did you get this off GPS Z-axis data? Because it sure doesn't represent how the British handle their 'up' and 'down' railroad conventions. It is NOT that London is physically lower, and it is NOT that most of England and all of Scotland are "up north" of London on a typical Mercator projection map. I learned it as 'you go up to London because it's more important'. The actual sense behind the convention might, of course, be different from this. But remember that UP is toward London and DOWN away from it. (At least that's the way I now understand it.) No, I was considering the expression used of students at Oxford--they go up to Oxford, just as anyone, no matter the transportaion, goes up to London. I think it depends on context - Oxford the school vs. Oxford the city. If you were in Paddington station - London and someone asked where you were going, you would say you were going 'down to Oxford on the Great Western'. If someone asked you where you planning on going to university, you might say you were going 'up to Oxford'.
But as in everything, there are exceptions. When I took a railfan trip to Great Britian, it included the Ffestiniog Railway in Wales which had the locomotive shown below where it had two 0-4-0 boggies under a double boiler. Engineer stood on one side and fireman on the other side of the firebox in the center of the beast. So depending on which way the train went he was on the left side or the right side. Sort of a Dr Dolittle pushme-pullyou arrangement. Also called a double Fairie. And as this is England, it was a replica and was built in 1992!
And what amazed me even more was that this was a regular scheduled RR hauling regular passengers as well as railfans and it connected to British rail and took the rail pass. If you want to see steam, Great Britian is amazing. Can't compare to a Big Boy but makes up with veriety.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ffestiniog_Railway#/media/File:JamesSpooner.jpg
Wales is in Britain, not England. I am half Welsh from way back. I've done most of the heritage railways in England but haven't done the Welsh lines yet. Or the Scottish ones.
I have seen a double Fairlie in Eastern Germany where the cab, or footplate if you will surrounds the boiler completely and the drive wheels are enclosed for street running. It's a fascinating thing.
have a look:
http://www.heinsdorfergrund-vogtland.de/inhalte/gemeinde_heinsdorfergrund/_inhalt/vereine/rollbockverein/geschichtliches/geschichtliches
Fairlies come in a wide variety, both single and double boilered. The Mason Bogies of DSP&P were single Fairlies (2-6-6T) since the drivers were articulated with respect to the boiler.
awalker1829(proper engineers design locomotives, not drive them)
My old dictionary lists as the 4th definition of engineer:
"4 : a person who runs or supervises an engine or apparatus."
My grandfather was the "Engineer" at the public library because he operated the boiler and stationary steam engine that produced the air-conditioning for the building.
Besides: in the early days of railroading the only person who knew how to operate the locomotive was the "Engineer" that designed and built it.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Maybe I fit that definition when I was in college. My first year, I had the resposibility of going around to four boiler rooms each night to fill the stokers and check the water levels--for onr hour of work credit each night. The second year, I added filling the stokers and cleaning the fires on Sunday mornings. I gladly relinquished the reswposibility after my second year. One Saturday night my last January, the dormitory house president came pounding up to my room and exclaimed "A steam pipe burst in the basement!" I went down to the basement and discovered that water was dripping from an overhead radiator--you would seldom notice a steam leak there, but when hot water drips on you.... I knew immediately that the boy who had the responsibility had thought that the water was low, opened the inlet valve, filled the stoker, and went about his work. Since he lived in the gym, I knew it would take some time to get him back to the dormitory (and he might not have known what to do) so I went back up to my room, dressed, and went down and out and down to the boiler room, closed the inlet valve and opened a 1 1/2' valve to drain the steam line. An hour later, I closed the valve and went back to bed. Monday morning, I told the superintendant of the Building and Ground Crew that he owed me an hour; he just laughed at me (we did have a good relationship--I worked for him every summer I was in college).
Drivers become Engineers when they get their feet wet crossing the Atlantic pond.
spsffanAll this up and down business reminds me of the Southern Pacific. Trains referred to as going West were going towards San Francisco. Those referred to as going East were going away from San Francisco. The actual compass direction the train was moving (including North and South) didn't matter. I wonder if UP keeps up this tradition on it's former SP lines.
Employee Timetable directions and geographical directions frequently disagree. In some locations they are 100% opposite of each other.
One of the cardinal rules in setting up CSX CADS displays was that Timetable Directions North and West were at the top of a screen and South and East are at the bottom. In some locations where a particular screen had to display both E-W & N-S territories on the same screen - the result was practically unintelligible. (the particular screen and the territory it represented had its TT direction changed from N-S to E-W and sanity was restored.)
zardozI dunno; my certificate says that I am a qualified Locomotive Engineer (p.s. I worked in the operating department, not the driving department).
I always preferred the term engineman myself. Or motorman if you were running an electric.
Locomotive tamer is also acceptable.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
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