A hidden tourist gem here in KS is the Midland RR hotel @ Wilson, KS on the pre-merger UP "Kansas Pacific" route. Wife and I went up yesterday to spend night in the historic hotel and came bk today. Many UP historical artifacts are displayed in the building. Sitting right next to the mainline, trains blast through town as if there is nothing on this site of the western KS high plains. A total of four trains were seen or heard from our trackside room during the 18 hr stay. Most interesting was this morn around 1000 when an eb w/a pair of big jacks came by right before we checked out. This must have been a local as only 15-20 cars were being hauled.
I hold very little knowledge about the current profile of this line. Does anyone know what the daily avg train count is? What M and L jobs work out there? It is my understanding Salina has a pair of daily yd jobs. Most traffic would be going across N Platte, w/the KP used as a secondary route is my guess.
Brakie: It's down to about 6 trains a day. You probably saw most of them. (was at about 20/day in 2008 before the recession and the coal slowdown. Used as a relief valve on the transcon.) It is a nice place, BossHen would go back if the timing was right. Last weekend we saw at least some grain train power being dropped off and a rediculous backing move out by Ogallah as we beat feet for home after Thanksgiving.
UP built a dozen 10000 foot sidings between Topeka and Denver in the late 1990's and upgraded the line with CTC islands. Sad that they now consider it expendable. They know that they cannot expand on the transcon anymore - The KP almost abandoned twice, only to be found as a relief valve to route lesser priority trains on and off the transcon. (At one point, UP was paying Kyle to detour some of the KP load over onto the old Rock Island, Salina-Limon!)
(At least it did not sprout legs like the Brookside Hotel and take its chicken dinner show to Abilene...)
mudchicken They know that they cannot expand on the transcon anymore
They know that they cannot expand on the transcon anymore
That's interesting. I don't doubt what you say, you know more than I do about this. But I am puzzled. Why can't they add more capacity on their main line through Nebraska?
greyhounds mudchicken They know that they cannot expand on the transcon anymore That's interesting. I don't doubt what you say, you know more than I do about this. But I am puzzled. Why can't they add more capacity on their main line through Nebraska?
Virtually ANYTHING can be done - it is just a matter of the price one is willing to pay for it.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
They are in places 5 main tracks wide with the new clearance requirements (plus additional sidetracks). There are places out there where they are hemmed-in between US-30 and the South Platte, other places have monster grain elevators on both sides of the R/W. While most of the way is largely 400' wide 1862-FGROW, not all of it was. (There were a few hardy souls out there when Dodge, Casement et al got after it. You also have to drain all of that track without drowning your neighbors and control the earthwork you were sitting on.) The KP was re-habbed to take the excess and dilute the traffic headaches - they are overdue for a crisis up there on the transcon.
Balt is right, but the Yellow Peril (but not the Wall Street Trash) is smart enough and has the practical reality skills to not put all of their eggs in one basket. (Brown smelly stuff happens where you least want it to. Beancounter logic, on its own, will eventually fail. Even PSR, which is why STB and FRA are asking questions and requiring reporting.)
Taking the big eraser to what grew up around the R/W is not as easy or cheap as some think.
The Union Pacific KP route was withering for a long time. Subsequent to the SP merger, its attractiveness as an alternative to the Hoisington Sub was apparent although its capacity and roadbed were not capable of handling the additional volume. When traffic was removed from Tennessee Pass and the former MP Hoisington Sub as a through route to Kansas City, the Moffat Route via Denver became the main thoroughfare for coal traffic off the former Rio Grande. This traffic came into Denver and most of it had to travel north to Cheyenne and thence via North Platte. The old Julesburg Sub that offered a short-cut from LaSalle, CO to Julesburg and North Platte without significant grade had already been cut.
The Overland Route was swamped with traffic at the time, exacerbated by the re-routing of manifest traffic off the SP (Rio Grande) to the Overland Route via Wyoming and this additional coal traffic. The delays associated with closing the Pueblo route without sufficient alternative were phenominal. A lot of coal traffic from the Grand Junction area was routed west to Ogden and then east via Wyoming to avoid the congestion in Denver and capacity through Moffat Tunnel. Thus the impetus to rehab the KP, that was entirely a relief valve for the coal business and more direct route to KC.
With the decline in coal shipments the fortunes of the KP suffer accordingly. Were there ever a need for a through route for other traffic KC-SLC/Ogden the KP might have a future, however, that would presume a very significant increase in business on the Overland and I am not certain that is UP's goal.
There is an old saying in the Logistics community. Just when you think you have things under control Old Man Murphy is going to gum up the plumbing so bad that even C4 isn't going to fix the plug in the works. Right now every one thinks things are going smoothly for peak season. My drivers are hearing of delays from shippers on goods needed due to lack of flexiblity in our HOS. Even though we have had almost a year on Elogs this is the first Peak season on them and most shippers and recivers are still playing catch up. Amazon is in for a huge wakeup call from what my adult kids are telling me. Why their largest carriers on the truckload delivery side are about to hammer them with new contract demands that require 2 hour unloading times or face from what I and my drivers have heard something like 2 grand a hour in detention time rates.
Fed Ex is short trucks due to Forward air being bought out by Covenent Transport and not knowing how to handle the Fed Ex contract. UPS is needing close to 2000 trucks short term for the season. We are all scrambling to cover loads and all it will take will be a massive winter storm someplace to gum the works up nationwide.
When you think you have all the answers, you then find out that the questions are not the ones you have the answers for.
PennsyBoomer With the decline in coal shipments the fortunes of the KP suffer accordingly. Were there ever a need for a through route for other traffic KC-SLC/Ogden the KP might have a future, however, that would presume a very significant increase in business on the Overland and I am not certain that is UP's goal.
Although a bit east and north, when I hired out in 1998 they always talked of needing a third track across Iowa and Illinois. I remember a manager back then saying those higher up were divided on laying a third main or buying the IAIS and upgrading it. Needless to say, the talk of those days are long gone. With the demise of coal, the old CNW isn't as busy as it once was.
Jeff
Thanks for the responses and don't hesitate to expound more details. While I am in the process of recovering from having two Santa Fe books of KS history just published, down the line long term I may look at doing one of the Rio Grande across KS if there is enough interest, but not anytime soon.
jeffhergert Jeff
BNSF did in the 90s when they eliminated almost every single track bottleneck on the transcon. Then the board of directors got pissed at the CEO for wasting MONEY fired him and then stopped the expansion. Then when the traffic hit screamed what were we thinking. They learned their lesson and since have not stopped eliminating bottle necks whenever possible.
Well if they're going to keep the KP they need to use the KP for more than six trains per day. There is some amount of freight moving St. Louis/Kansas City/Denver. Along with intermediate points such as Abilene, Manhattan, Ft. Riley and Salina. Either get every marginally profitable pound of freight they can, or dispose of the line.
Sitting back and waiting for something to happen is not a good business plan.
Shadow the Cats owner BNSF did in the 90s when they eliminated almost every single track bottleneck on the transcon. Then the board of directors got pissed at the CEO for wasting MONEY fired him and then stopped the expansion. Then when the traffic hit screamed what were we thinking. They learned their lesson and since have not stopped eliminating bottle necks whenever possible.
It was more interesting, from a nostalgic point of view, in how traffic was routed at one time. When D&RGW was an independent line and before WP's absorbtion by UP, interchange was almost exclusively BN/RG or RI/RG at the east end and RG/WP or RG/SP at the west end. Shippers would route cars via a variety of routes and even UP via Denver to afford competitive service and rates.
Saving a line vs. getting rid is a difficult proposition and expensive to reverse if the prognosis is wrong. Coal is a sobering aspect of investment that seems to have resulted in relatively sudden excess plant, whereas some corridors experince increases in volume owing to the development of energy sources thwarting that very coal business. If there's "surge capacity" this presumes some excess of route or track at a point in time. Perhaps that's too expensive, anymore, to keep one's card close.
While the single track former C&NW line east from Missouri Valley, IA to Dennison was being double-tracked, for awhile UP used the IC (or CN/IC) line which parallels UP to Council Bluffs as an extra track. That was great with big freights on jointed rail - very melodious. But activity on this route has been in decline for nearly a decade now. It's still healthy, but not continually in near-crisis stage as once seemed to define getting stuff over-the-road.
The KP has always had some grain business although hadn't functioned as a through route for years and is a teetering route without the coal volume vs. the persuasion toward concentration of business on corridors. And I'd love to hear what is the philosophy of keeping the 3% grade Tenn Pass route intact. I mean, that's farsighted to do so by now. Still, once it's gone, it's gone.
I think the carriers have reached the point in 'plant rationalization' of thinking that there is ANY POSSIBLE need for a line in the future, you either short line lease it or hold on to it in mothballs.
They now understand, when it's gone, it's GONE. And IF it were EVER needed again there would be years of EIS and NIMBY, BANANA litigation as well as investment to the level of 10 to 20 times any scrap value realized.
BaltACD When you think you have all the answers, you then find out that the questions are not the ones you have the answers for.
blue streak 1 jeffhergert Jeff Of course in 10 - 14 years a third track might again be needed ? But no company plans that far ahead !
I doubt that. But you're right about the planning ahead. I'm sure there are parts of the company planning for the long term. However, the part that controls the purse strings only plans for the next quarter.
Jeff, How does the UP provide crews for the KP? Are some terminals staffed with multi-route qualified ones that can keep busy on busier routes and used on the KP when needed or do they have crews on a standby pay plan? If there are only two or three trips a day, what happens when a blockage requires six to ten trips?
Jeff will be able to tell us how many extra bd condr & engrs are maintained at the terminals. Crew bases have a certain number of extra bd and pool crews. A station, such as Salina, may call say for 8 condrs, 8 engrs but that is only a self guess. When there are too many trains and not enough crews, trains are parked until a rested crew is available for duty
Mudchicken that from what I've read was their ace in the hole to force lower trackage rights fees from the SP when they redid them. SP wanted to raise them higher the Santa Fe said sure you can however we will just build our own line right over the same mountain group and then pull our trains.
[quote user="Shadow the Cats owner"]
I believe this SP-ATSF in Tehachipe(sc) story has two scenereos, the 1st in the 1890's and then again in the 1960's. I was somewhat envolved in the 1960's with the matter of SP wishing to raise the "trackage rights" fees. This was was resolved with ICC intervention. Yes, in the 1960's ATSF once again looked at the 1890's study and decided it was not practical, both with $$$ and engineering practicality.
To make a correction, my comment in this thread (#9) was actually meant to be placed in the Rio Grande discusssion and not here. My error.
I did a little looking at Salina. East to KC, the pool has 9 engineer turns. West to Sharon Springs, the pool has 8 engineer turns. (I didn't look up conductor turns on the road pools.) The Salina extra board has 9 engineers on it. The conductor's extra board also has 9 and is considered a "road" extra board. There is also a brakeman/switchman extra board with 8 on it. I didn't look too closely, but it appears there is a morning and afternoon yard job and at least one local based there.
jeffhergert I did a little looking at Salina. East to KC, the pool has 9 engineer turns. West to Sharon Springs, the pool has 8 engineer turns. (I didn't look up conductor turns on the road pools.) The Salina extra board has 9 engineers on it. The conductor's extra board also has 9 and is considered a "road" extra board. There is also a brakeman/switchman extra board with 8 on it. I didn't look too closely, but it appears there is a morning and afternoon yard job and at least one local based there. Jeff
https://www.ksdot.org/Assets/wwwksdotorg/bureaus/burRail/Rail/Documents/KDOTRailPlan.pdf
To be of some interest in following this Thread, it is the Kansas Statewide Rail Plan, dates to: Novrmber 2017. Chapter two seems to have some issues with traffic over the former KP, line.
samfp1943To be of some interest in following this Thread, it is the Kansas Statewide Rail Plan, dates to: Novrmber 2017. Chapter two seems to have some issues with traffic over the former KP, line.
What issues? Following is what I find in chapter 2, sec 2.2.4 about the Kansas & Pacific:
The Kansas Pacific, consisting of the Kansas, Salina and Sharon Springs Subdivisions, begins at Kansas City and leaves Kansas at its western border near Sharon Springs en route to its terminus at Denver. Primary traffic is unit coal trains that originate in the Yampa and North Fork Coal Fields in Colorado en route to utilities in Kansas and the Midwest, empty return coal trains, and locally originating unit grain trains and grain moving in blocks of 26 or 52 cars. The Kansas Pacific is mostly single-track and is not currently equipped with CTC. It is approximately 445 miles. Approximate rail traffic per day is 15 trains.
Are you saying the 15 is too high?
Deleted. Reposted as reply to BaltACD
BaltACD I think the carriers have reached the point in 'plant rationalization' of thinking that there is ANY POSSIBLE need for a line in the future, you either short line lease it or hold on to it in mothballs. They now understand, when it's gone, it's GONE. And IF it were EVER needed again there would be years of EIS and NIMBY, BANANA litigation as well as investment to the level of 10 to 20 times any scrap value realized.
Electroliner 1935 samfp1943 To be of some interest in following this Thread, it is the Kansas Statewide Rail Plan, dates to: Novrmber 2017. Chapter two seems to have some issues with traffic over the former KP, line. What issues? Following is what I find in chapter 2, sec 2.2.4 about the Kansas & Pacific: The Kansas Pacific, consisting of the Kansas, Salina and Sharon Springs Subdivisions, begins at Kansas City and leaves Kansas at its western border near Sharon Springs en route to its terminus at Denver. Primary traffic is unit coal trains that originate in the Yampa and North Fork Coal Fields in Colorado en route to utilities in Kansas and the Midwest, empty return coal trains, and locally originating unit grain trains and grain moving in blocks of 26 or 52 cars. The Kansas Pacific is mostly single-track and is not currently equipped with CTC. It is approximately 445 miles. Approximate rail traffic per day is 15 trains. Are you saying the 15 is too high?
samfp1943 To be of some interest in following this Thread, it is the Kansas Statewide Rail Plan, dates to: Novrmber 2017. Chapter two seems to have some issues with traffic over the former KP, line.
Grit TV is running several times Kansas Pacific. Please do not take anything as gospel if you decide to watch ! Watched 5 -10 minutes and found these errors. Supposely pre civil war but going west out of Kansas City. Locomotive certainly late 1800 -1900s, Boss says lts go to town. Engineer tells fireman to fire up cold engine and then gives three toots to go forward. Cars have type "E" couplers and have regular air brakes. No brakeme with cars not having top brake wheels. Track is ballasted and some welded rail. End of track has about 5 sidings with a string of steel hopper cars.
Couldn't watch any more ! Directors license ? UGH !
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