Electroliner 1935For more on signals; see the rule book.
Newer 11th edition (February 2018) here:
http://www.cottonvalley.org/safety/NORAC-11-02-01-18.pdf
Overmod tree68 As for going through on a yellow, I heard that if you don't have to accelerate to get through, you're OK. When I was learning to drive in New Jersey and New York (City and state), and in both Louisiana and Tennessee, the rule is that a vehicle physically in the intersection when the light turns red, even by inches, has the right of way. As such, accelerating on yellow isn't illegal, although it could open you to charges of careless or reckless driving if you mistime the action even slightly or otherwise attract the wrong sort of attention from the police. In Pennsylvania, on the other hand, yellow is 'conditional red' and no matter how long you know the interval to be, you need to make efforts to stop for it. Amusingly, in the New York of my childhood, long before I was concerned with driving laws, the traffic lights only had red and green aspects. Both would come on together for a few seconds to show that the light was about to change. Presumably this counted as 'green' up to the moment the green light went out.
tree68 As for going through on a yellow, I heard that if you don't have to accelerate to get through, you're OK.
When I was learning to drive in New Jersey and New York (City and state), and in both Louisiana and Tennessee, the rule is that a vehicle physically in the intersection when the light turns red, even by inches, has the right of way. As such, accelerating on yellow isn't illegal, although it could open you to charges of careless or reckless driving if you mistime the action even slightly or otherwise attract the wrong sort of attention from the police.
In Pennsylvania, on the other hand, yellow is 'conditional red' and no matter how long you know the interval to be, you need to make efforts to stop for it.
Amusingly, in the New York of my childhood, long before I was concerned with driving laws, the traffic lights only had red and green aspects. Both would come on together for a few seconds to show that the light was about to change. Presumably this counted as 'green' up to the moment the green light went out.
Johnny
Then there's the way George Carlin's brother drives.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_BtPZRbZxY
Jeff
tree68As for going through on a yellow, I heard that if you don't have to accelerate to get through, you're OK.
SD70DudeIn Canada a yellow traffic light is legally the same as a green, the yellow is only for advance warning. If you enter the intersection while the light is yellow you are in the right, even if it changes to red before you finish clearing the intersection.
tree68 Semper Vaporo When I was a kid, I saw traffic lights that turned yellow before turning green. I remember when they were changed to not do that... my dad said it caused drivers to 'jump-the-gun' and enter the intersection before it was safe and caused too many accidents. Others said it tended to induce drag racing. I've always heard that it was a problem between the folks trying to beat the light before it turned red (which they still do), and the folks trying to get a jump on things, as you say. Regardless, made for some 'interesting' meetings at ground zero. As for going through on a yellow, I heard that if you don't have to accelerate to get through, you're OK.
Semper Vaporo When I was a kid, I saw traffic lights that turned yellow before turning green. I remember when they were changed to not do that... my dad said it caused drivers to 'jump-the-gun' and enter the intersection before it was safe and caused too many accidents. Others said it tended to induce drag racing.
I've always heard that it was a problem between the folks trying to beat the light before it turned red (which they still do), and the folks trying to get a jump on things, as you say. Regardless, made for some 'interesting' meetings at ground zero.
As for going through on a yellow, I heard that if you don't have to accelerate to get through, you're OK.
In Canada a yellow traffic light is legally the same as a green, the yellow is only for advance warning.
If you enter the intersection while the light is yellow you are in the right, even if it changes to red before you finish clearing the intersection.
A flashing yellow traffic light (not to be confused with tow trucks or construction markers) means you have the right-of-way at an intersection. A flashing red light is a stop sign, and if both directions are flashing red then the intersection is a 4-way stop.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Just checked the latest GA driver's manual dated July 1, 2018. It has the flashing yellow that states turn when way clear. However it did not have the solid red arrow listed. That immediately caused me to ask driver's section why ? Was questioned as to my action said it meat no turn or direction of arrow on red, After they could not find it in the book a note of embassasment was noted.
Yes we do have a lot of the red arrows now around here at intersections that have complicated oncoming traffic that turns left toward your car.
Now it's common for about a dozen cars to go rhtough yellow, and at least 2 or 3 to go through a solid red.
It's why I put dashcams in my trucks.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
I have not noticed any flashing red arrows here, but there is a delay after the lights for one direction turn red before the lights turn green for the cross traffic.There are flashing yellow arrows on some streets.
One bothersome event is that on some streets traffic from one direction may make a left turn before the green light comes on--and traffic from the other direction may make a left turn after the green light goes off.
Semper VaporoWhen I was a kid, I saw traffic lights that turned yellow before turning green. I remember when they were changed to not do that... my dad said it caused drivers to 'jump-the-gun' and enter the intersection before it was safe and caused too many accidents. Others said it tended to induce drag racing.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
CMStPnP Overmod Almost as evil as shortening the yellow when the red-light camera scam is implemented... I thought the road laws state that your OK with the red light if your in the second half of the intersection when the light changes to red. They have a 10-15 second time delay after the light turns red before the cross traffic light turns green usually to cover this. Thankfully we don't use the European system where the yellow light comes on after the red to inform folks the light is about to turn green as a "get ready" signal. I understand why they use that in Europe, I just think it is a little obnoxious.
Overmod Almost as evil as shortening the yellow when the red-light camera scam is implemented...
I thought the road laws state that your OK with the red light if your in the second half of the intersection when the light changes to red. They have a 10-15 second time delay after the light turns red before the cross traffic light turns green usually to cover this.
Thankfully we don't use the European system where the yellow light comes on after the red to inform folks the light is about to turn green as a "get ready" signal. I understand why they use that in Europe, I just think it is a little obnoxious.
When I was a kid, I saw traffic lights that turned yellow before turning green. I remember when they were changed to not do that... my dad said it caused drivers to 'jump-the-gun' and enter the intersection before it was safe and caused too many accidents. Others said it tended to induce drag racing.
I have never seen a delay between the light turning red for one route and the light turning green for the other. The yellow signal between green and red is for traffic to clear the intersection (especially left turns) before the other route can go. When the light turns red, the other route gets a green right a way. Technically, you are not allowed to enter the intersection on the yellow, you are only allowed to proceed if you are already in the intersection when it turns yellow.
oltmannd zugmann BaltACD Man made signal problem that has no reason to be. Yes. Lots and lots in GA. Have seen quite a few in OR as well
zugmann BaltACD Man made signal problem that has no reason to be.
BaltACD
Man made signal problem that has no reason to be.
Yes. Lots and lots in GA. Have seen quite a few in OR as well
We have those in Iowa now, too.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
zugmannAnyone else besides Maryland use the flashing red arrow? PennDOT in PA has been addign a lot of the yellwo falshing arrows this year. Also even adding solid red arrows, which until this year, have been rare in PA.
An intersection in my old hometown in MI had one for years - until the right on red laws made it unnecessary.
zugmann BaltACD Man made signal problem that has no reason to be. Anyone else besides Maryland use the flashing red arrow? PennDOT in PA has been addign a lot of the yellwo falshing arrows this year. Also even adding solid red arrows, which until this year, have been rare in PA.
BaltACD Man made signal problem that has no reason to be.
Anyone else besides Maryland use the flashing red arrow? PennDOT in PA has been addign a lot of the yellwo falshing arrows this year. Also even adding solid red arrows, which until this year, have been rare in PA.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
OvermodAlmost as evil as shortening the yellow when the red-light camera scam is implemented...
Overmod BaltACD Man made signal problem that has no reason to be. It is there out of expedience. We have some whoppers like it here. The idea is that you can prevent the 'go faster to beat the green arrow' problem by having the arrow go all the way to red (and be enforced by cameras or cops) for a moment even though it'll go to green again just a moment later. Especially fun when highway bubbas install it at an intersection where long familiarity with the timing of green arrows and lights is established. Almost as evil as shortening the yellow when the red-light camera scam is implemented...
It is there out of expedience. We have some whoppers like it here. The idea is that you can prevent the 'go faster to beat the green arrow' problem by having the arrow go all the way to red (and be enforced by cameras or cops) for a moment even though it'll go to green again just a moment later.
Especially fun when highway bubbas install it at an intersection where long familiarity with the timing of green arrows and lights is established. Almost as evil as shortening the yellow when the red-light camera scam is implemented...
No camera involved - just bent sheetmetal and broken glass.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Semper VaporoI can't imaging what it would be like if automobile traffic lights had the plethora of meanings that RR signals seem to have based on location. "A yellow light at a federal highway means you cannot enter the intersection, but at a state highway you are allowed to go though without stopping if the red light is blinking and you are a red car with a white top on Thursdays and Saturdays in the first two weeks of the month." Sorry, I got carried away.
Sorry, I got carried away.
- PDN.
BaltACDMan made signal problem that has no reason to be.
tree68 Semper Vaporo I can't imaging what it would be like if automobile traffic lights had the plethora of meanings that RR signals seem to have based on location. Those various meanings have caused a number of collisions, especially since all the mergers. If one understands the various aspects, it should theoretically be possible to run a train virtually anywhere. A slow approach means essentially the same thing everywhere. Don't exceed the specified speed and be prepared to stop at the next signal. "Right turn on red" was a California thing when I first got licensed. Now it's commonplace. The new thing around here is flashing amber left turn arrows. Instead of having to wait for the next cycle to make your left turn when the "straight" lanes are green, you can make your turn if there's no oncoming traffic. There aren't usually any signals, but traffic circles (rotaries, roundabouts) continue to confound people. Other local customs like the "Michigan left" ("Jug Handle in NJ) can be equally confusing.
Semper Vaporo I can't imaging what it would be like if automobile traffic lights had the plethora of meanings that RR signals seem to have based on location.
Those various meanings have caused a number of collisions, especially since all the mergers.
If one understands the various aspects, it should theoretically be possible to run a train virtually anywhere. A slow approach means essentially the same thing everywhere. Don't exceed the specified speed and be prepared to stop at the next signal.
"Right turn on red" was a California thing when I first got licensed. Now it's commonplace.
The new thing around here is flashing amber left turn arrows. Instead of having to wait for the next cycle to make your left turn when the "straight" lanes are green, you can make your turn if there's no oncoming traffic.
There aren't usually any signals, but traffic circles (rotaries, roundabouts) continue to confound people.
Other local customs like the "Michigan left" ("Jug Handle in NJ) can be equally confusing.
Locally there is a traffic light that governs traffic on MD 32 which passes under I-70 and governs the Left Turn that is required to get on the entrance ramp for I-70 East.
Light starts off with Green for SB 32 that is paired with a Flashing Red Left Turn arrow. After a period of time the Flashing Left Turn arrow extinguishes and becomes Solid Red Left Turn arrow - after a 3 to 4 second delay it becomes a Green Left Turn arrow. Can't count the number of times there have been vehicles nearly rear ended by those not paying attention when the lead driver stops for the Solid Red Left Turn arrow.
Semper VaporoI can't imaging what it would be like if automobile traffic lights had the plethora of meanings that RR signals seem to have based on location.
I can't imaging what it would be like if automobile traffic lights had the plethora of meanings that RR signals seem to have based on location. "A yellow light at a federal highway means you cannot enter the intersection, but at a state highway you are allowed to go though without stopping if the red light is blinking and you are a red car with a white top on Thursdays and Saturdays in the first two weeks of the month."
Way back when I was working on the D&H we had speed signalling cTc. and most interlockings were controlled by three-light signals. At certain junctions there were two diverging routes a train could take. At these locations the middle light would flash to indicate which diverging route was lined for your train. A note in the Employee's Timetable Special Instructions advised where these signal indictions were used and which route was controlled by the flashing middle light. Medium Clear and Medium Approach were the only indications where this flashing light was employed. The only other use of a flashing light was on a dwarf signal where a flashing yellow indicated Medium Approach rather than Restricting.
These special indications are unique to each railroad so there are many answers to your question.
OK, I might have asked this before in the past or someone else might have. I just do not remember the answer. What does a flashing yellow light mean at a CTC signal. I noticed TRE is using flashing yellow now on it's tri-color CTC Signals between Dallas and Fort Worth. Also, is that universal signal across railroads or just specific to TRE (Trinity Railway Express).
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CMStPnP OK, I might have asked this before in the past or someone else might have. I just do not remember the answer. What does a flashing yellow light mean at a CTC signal. I noticed TRE is using flashing yellow now on it's tri-color CTC Signals between Dallas and Fort Worth. Also, is that universal signal across railroads or just specific to TRE (Trinity Railway Express).
jeffhergertThe leaving signals have a bottom head that can display two aspects. The next signal appears to be at a signal with a diverging route. I'd bet (but not the farm) that those leaving signals can display a yellow over yellow (approach diverging on UP) meaning be prepared to take the diverging route at the next signal.
That's probably it, I figured it was some additional aspect, probably for higher speed territory.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
CMStPnP Irving is where the BNSF junctions with the line. I think it is the former FRISCO........ Amtrak's Texas Eagle uses this TRE line as well.
The station is Downtown Irving/Heritage Crossing.
You are correct; the line coming down from the north that joins the TRE is the former Frisco line. There is a Y switch just north of the station so that trains coming off the Frisco line can go east or west. I have seen a couple of them headed east toward Dallas; I have never seen any headed to Fort Worth.
I have seen four or five Herzog balast cars, as well as other rail maintenance cars, parked opposite the station. My guess is that Herzog has been contracted to maintain the line as well as operate the trains.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
tree68One possibility is that he was riding on another train's yellows - a common enough occurance. If that were the case, it's possibly that every signal would be flashing yellow, or perhaps solid yellow. If that leading train got further ahead (or got off the line - witness the yard that was passed), then you'd see all greens, which did seem to be the case.
That could be it. The small yard is in Irving and you'll note briefly after it the line is triple track for a short distance. Irving is where the BNSF junctions with the line. I think it is the former FRISCO but I am not an expert on rail history in DFW. Just think it is former FRISCO because it is about where the FRISCO comes into Dallas.
I have seen Fort Worth and Western on the route and sometimes trains with BNSF units on them but no idea if it is pool power or not. The frieght trains are always fairly short on the line. I think FWWR has a BNSF switching contract as it junctions with this same line (from it's former Cotton Belt East-West mainline) about 3-4 miles North in Carrolton. Amtrak's Texas Eagle uses this TRE line as well.
Deggestyhe line is mainly single track, with many passing sidings--and occasional wayside signals.
The video was edited quite a bit by the author, the line is a lot more double track than the video impression it leaves from the last time I rode. Also a number of rather long double track flyovers so as to skip numerous grade crossings in Irving and other places. On the single track portions there are a lot of passing sidings.
The T&P and Santa Fe stations in Fort Worth are also about 1.5 to 2 miles apart. The video editing makes them appear a lot closer together.
CMStPnP oltmannd Okay. You video shows what's going on. The signal in question was the home signal for the interlocking, but was acting as a block signal in this case. The flashing yellow is likely called "advance approach" and indicates the next signal will be at approach and the one after that, at stop (or stop and proceed). ... OK now look at mark 28:05 on the video. He passes a flashing yellow with the train but then the one in the distance is now flashing yellow? So it made sense that once he passes a flashing yellow the next one is either solid yellow or red but this is so wierd and confusing.
oltmannd Okay. You video shows what's going on. The signal in question was the home signal for the interlocking, but was acting as a block signal in this case. The flashing yellow is likely called "advance approach" and indicates the next signal will be at approach and the one after that, at stop (or stop and proceed). ...
Okay. You video shows what's going on. The signal in question was the home signal for the interlocking, but was acting as a block signal in this case.
The flashing yellow is likely called "advance approach" and indicates the next signal will be at approach and the one after that, at stop (or stop and proceed).
...
OK now look at mark 28:05 on the video. He passes a flashing yellow with the train but then the one in the distance is now flashing yellow? So it made sense that once he passes a flashing yellow the next one is either solid yellow or red but this is so wierd and confusing.
The signal at 28:05 is red over flashing yellow. The red on top means you're going to take the diverging route.
To understand the flashing yellow on the bottom, re-read Jeff's post about flashing yellow (advance approach, be prepared to stop at the second following signal) vs yellow over yellow (approach the following signal prepared to take the diverging route). Note that BNSF, instead of having these two indications, just had the same indication for both aspects: "Approach Medium: Approach the next signal at 40 MPH or less." This can be used both to slow a train down for an upcoming yellow signal and to slow a train for an upcoming diverging route, so at some point they just got kind of smashed together. There's some loss of flexibility (because not all diverging routes are good for exactly 40 MPH, the signal will often be more restrictive than what the track will allow), but if you've got good sight lines to your signals trains can adjust up or down when that second signal actually comes into view.
With that said: my guess is that the red over flashing yellow aspect at 28:05 has a meaning somewhat akin to: "Proceed on diverging route, approaching the next signal at XX MPH or less." This can be used when the next signal is yellow (to ensure the train will be able to stop within that block), OR when the train has to be prepared to take ANOTHER diverging route at the next signal (28:53).
Dan
I found the video quite interesting. As has been noted by other posters, the line is mainly single track, with many passing sidings--and occasional wayside signals. I am somewhat puzzled by seeing the wayside signals as being absolute (no signal numbers).
This put me in mind of the first time I saw an advance approach aspect--on the IC's line above Haleyville, Alabama as I was on my way to Chicago on the IC's Seminole, 50 years ago. I asked the conductor as to what it meant, and he told me it was an advance approach signal--be prepared to stop at the second signal.
I do wonder where the zero mile post for this line is.
tree68 CMStPnP OK now look at mark 28:05 on the video. He passes a flashing yellow with the train but then the one in the distance is now flashing yellow? So it made sense that once he passes a flashing yellow the next one is either solid yellow or red but this is so wierd and confusing. One possibility is that he was riding on another train's yellows - a common enough occurance. If that were the case, it's possibly that every signal would be flashing yellow, or perhaps solid yellow. If that leading train got further ahead (or got off the line - witness the yard that was passed), then you'd see all greens, which did seem to be the case.
CMStPnP OK now look at mark 28:05 on the video. He passes a flashing yellow with the train but then the one in the distance is now flashing yellow? So it made sense that once he passes a flashing yellow the next one is either solid yellow or red but this is so wierd and confusing.
One possibility is that he was riding on another train's yellows - a common enough occurance.
If that were the case, it's possibly that every signal would be flashing yellow, or perhaps solid yellow. If that leading train got further ahead (or got off the line - witness the yard that was passed), then you'd see all greens, which did seem to be the case.
'Riding the Yellows' has caused any number of rear end collisions over the years when the lead train stops with its rear end 'just' past a signal - following train passes his 'Yellow' signal expecting the next signal to also be 'Yellow", without being prepared to stop at the next signal and BLAM! The following train can't stop for the red. It makes no difference if signal system is CTC or just Automatic Block Signalling.
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