Info from working engineers
I am up for recertification this year.... Local managers on the Division are not even allowed to log me in to take my recert exam.... Seems as if they aren't trusted.... Have to wait on a group from Jax to come up & do recert exams.... & I am sure my recert ride will be on the simulator. About original certification? I don't know.... We haven't had any engineer trainees since the RFE jobs were eliminated. Will be interesting to see how that is handled if they ever call people for engineer school.... Of course they closed the doors of the REDI center & either sold it or it is up for sale... So another question would be, where will they even hold engineer school at in the future.
About original certification? I don't know.... We haven't had any engineer trainees since the RFE jobs were eliminated. Will be interesting to see how that is handled if they ever call people for engineer school.... Of course they closed the doors of the REDI center & either sold it or it is up for sale... So another question would be, where will they even hold engineer school at in the future.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Info from working engineers Have to wait on a group from Jax to come up & do recert exams.... & I am sure my recert ride will be on the simulator. We haven't had any engineer trainees since the RFE jobs were eliminated. Will be interesting to see how that is handled if they ever call people for engineer school.... Of course they closed the doors of the REDI center & either sold it or it is up for sale... So another question would be, where will they even hold engineer school at in the future.
Have to wait on a group from Jax to come up & do recert exams.... & I am sure my recert ride will be on the simulator.
We haven't had any engineer trainees since the RFE jobs were eliminated. Will be interesting to see how that is handled if they ever call people for engineer school.... Of course they closed the doors of the REDI center & either sold it or it is up for sale... So another question would be, where will they even hold engineer school at in the future.
What would be wrong with using a simulator for recertification? I hold almost every license the FAA issues. My training and follow-up training in a simulator was more effective than in the airplane.
What are RFE jobs?
What is or was the REDI Center?
Many organizations outsource the initial and the follow-up training (re-certification). My company, as an example, sent its pilots to Flight Safety for training. Could CSX follow a similar procedure, i.e. outsource the training and re-training of its engineers?
I was not a company pilot; but I was close to our aviation department. My team audited it. Discovered among other things that one of the pilots had failed his re-certification ride, which the chief pilot covered up. Executive management was not happy with the outcome.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
My brother, who's an ex-Air Force pilot, told me in many cases it's harder in the simulator than it is in the real aircraft!
Why? What he calls the "intangeables" just aren't there, like the physical feedback, "the feel," you'd get from flying the real aircraft, at least not in his day.
With simulator technology what it is today maybe they've figured out how to put that in too!
The REDI Center was CSX's training facility for all crafts. New hire employees or employees changing crafts would receive their intitial craft training on the do's and don'ts of the craft before going into the field for further hands on OJT from employees experienced in the craft.
Firelock76My brother, who's an ex-Air Force pilot, told me in many cases it's harder in the simulator than it is in the real aircraft! Why? What he calls the "intangeables" just aren't there, like the physical feedback, "the feel," you'd get from flying the real aircraft, at least not in his day. With simulator technology what it is today maybe they've figured out how to put that in too!
Simulators are for today's 'kids' who have been rasied playing computer games. Those who excell with video games take well to simulators.
Simulators, no matter how good, don't provide the 'seat of the pants' feeling that the real thing does. There is nothing quite like 20K tons of a train's slack action running in on the engines in simulators. There may be a video representation of it, but there isn't the KICK IN THE BACK of the real thing.
Simulators can set up conditions that would cause derailments and 'test' the operators on their procedures to handle the conditions without having to call out the Wreck Train or off track equipment to clean up the mess.
Simulators have their place - as a training tool, not as a substitute for the real thing.
RFE here means 'road foreman of engines'. What this entailed on CSX, and the problems inherent in eliminating the position, have been discussed in recent posts/threads referencing the term.
Firelock76 My brother, who's an ex-Air Force pilot, told me in many cases it's harder in the simulator than it is in the real aircraft! Why? What he calls the "intangeables" just aren't there, like the physical feedback, "the feel," you'd get from flying the real aircraft, at least not in his day. With simulator technology what it is today maybe they've figured out how to put that in too!
As a pilot simulators can cover procedures that are very dangerous in an airplane. Delta found that with their Convair 880 fatal training accidents. But remember final training is always in the actual airplane type supervised by an experienced pilot. Of course the initiation of a new aircraft type really has its problems with most new check airmen having so much flight time and landings in empty aircraft sometimes with ballast .
Simulators just don't have the same feel as the real thing. Not just the occasional "kick in the pants," but just the feel of movement. It seems like the "scenery" passing by out the "window" doesn't match the speed indicated on the simulator's speedometer. It's like it's moving slower than it would in real life.
Scenery is another missing detail, although they've done better on ours over the years. Of course they have the really important details, like crossings, signals and signs, etc. What's missing is buildings and trees. As I said, they are getting better. The last time I was on one, they've started putting in those details, even if the placement of some is "wrong." It may seem trivial, but on the simulator, you can see signals way before you could in real life. Either the placement of buildings or the trees, especially the overgrowth of trees, blocks the view.
Simulators have there place, but nothing beats the real world.
I like Doug Riddell's story of how he was in the simulator and it kept saying he got a knuckle at a certain mile post. The instructor said the simulator (and the track chart used to program it) showed there was a sag there. Doug pointed out the track chart was for an abandoned pre-merger (SCL) parallel line and the one still in use had no sag there.
Jeff
jeffhergertSimulators just don't have the same feel as the real thing. Not just the occasional "kick in the pants," but just the feel of movement. It seems like the "scenery" passing by out the "window" doesn't match the speed indicated on the simulator's speedometer. It's like it's moving slower than it would in real life. Scenery is another missing detail, although they've done better on ours over the years. Of course they have the really important details, like crossings, signals and signs, etc. What's missing is buildings and trees. As I said, they are getting better. The last time I was on one, they've started putting in those details, even if the placement of some is "wrong." It may seem trivial, but on the simulator, you can see signals way before you could in real life. Either the placement of buildings or the trees, especially the overgrowth of trees, blocks the view. Simulators have there place, but nothing beats the real world. I like Doug Riddell's story of how he was in the simulator and it kept saying he got a knuckle at a certain mile post. The instructor said the simulator (and the track chart used to program it) showed there was a sag there. Doug pointed out the track chart was for an abandoned pre-merger (SCL) parallel line and the one still in use had no sag there. Jeff
Simulators have there place, but nothing beats the real world. I like Doug Riddell's story of how he was in the simulator and it kept saying he got a knuckle at a certain mile post. The instructor said the simulator (and the track chart used to program it) showed there was a sag there. Doug pointed out the track chart was for an abandoned pre-merger (SCL) parallel line and the one still in use had no sag there.
The Simulator design engineers need to get together with the iRacing people https://www.iracing.com/ . They have laser surveying race tracks all over the World and have the actions and responses accurate for a wide variety of racing cars. The actions are 'real' enough that Professional Drivers use the system when getting ready to compete at a track they have no experience on. Additionally there are any number of 'racing leagues' where iRacing participants from all over the World compete against each other. iRacing is not 'on track' racing but it is the next best thing.
Tracks get re-surveyed whenever a significant action is taken with the track surface - patches, repaving of segements or the entire track, even after winter frost heaves.
I am just curious as to the reasoning [other than the financial one] for a railroad management doing away with what would amount to first-line supervison by a designated Road Foreman of Engines?
Before my retirement, I had a position in a Safety Management position with a Truck line. One of my jobs was to check ride with drivers, and critique their driving habits. It was critical to make sure that driver abilities matched up to their 'records', and assured that they 'knew what they were doing'; before being turned out to drive our equipment.
It seems that there would be a parallel in the railroad engineer fields, or also conductor job function. A trained observer can learn a lot from just observing, and riding with someone who is doing a job.
It would seem that a qualified RFE would be able to observe, and critique another engineer over a track segment? The qualified observer is not there to specifically provide a punitive review of an individual; unless there are specific reasons to suspect that the observed is not doing their job as they have been trained?
I understand that in some cases, over-zealous individuals, have turned their jobs into positions that have earned them derisive monikers like: 'wead weasel', etc. To become more punitive than instructional, and somewhat more in the vein of a 'hall monitor'.
Why would a railroad do away with what would seem to be a critical function like the RFE?
samfp1943Why would a railroad do away with what would seem to be a critical function like the RFE?
1. Those getting rid of the positions don't understand what they do.
2. $$$$$
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I would've thought you would have the RFEs take on the TM's duties and then let go the TMs. In days of yore. one could read in the Pocket List of Railroad officials where one person in the backwater terminals of some railroads held both jobs.
The RfE's have actual years of experience and most of the class one TMs have a degree in logistics. I guess thats the new way of doing things. I think we need a stronger tougher FRA.
RSS
Randy StahlThe RfE's have actual years of experience and most of the class one TMs have a degree in logistics. I guess thats the new way of doing things. I think we need a stronger tougher FRA. RSS
To the millenials way of thinking - experience is just a drag on progress. Millenials don't believe in history and thereby replicate the failures of the past.
Those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat it.
BaltACDTo the millenials way of thinking - experience is just a drag on progress. Millenials don't believe in history and thereby replicate the failures of the past. Those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat it.
Millenials were still in grade school (or not even born) when this train of thought started.
There is a lot of crossing between the RFE and TM crafts (with my company at least). If you hire as a RFE, there are only so many jobs avaliable (And fewer with each increased pay band), so many naturally go into the TM side of things. I've had my recert rides done by the local TM (that used to be a RFE). Not a huge deal, really. The way RFE would be shifted around, most of them hardly knew their territory anyhow.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Randy Stahl The RfE's have actual years of experience and most of the class one TMs have a degree in logistics. I guess thats the new way of doing things. I think we need a stronger tougher FRA. RSS
Or a degree in English Literature.
jeffhergertOr a degree in English Literature. Jeff
I've known managers that had years in the field that were completely useless as managers. And managers that came fresh out of college with a non-railroad degree that were awesome managers.
Generalizations and all that.
zugmannI've known managers that had years in the field that were completely useless as managers.
The Peter Principle Personified...
Of course, there's always the percussive sublimation (kicked upstairs) and the lateral arabesque (sounds like a promotion, but isn't...)
zugmann jeffhergert Or a degree in English Literature. Jeff I've known managers that had years in the field that were completely useless as managers. And managers that came fresh out of college with a non-railroad degree that were awesome managers. Generalizations and all that.
I've known managers that had years in the field that were completely useless as managers. And managers that came fresh out of college with a non-railroad degree that were awesome managers. Generalizations and all that.
The skills required to be an effective supervisor/manager are different than the skills to be a top performer in one's field. The classical example is the organization that promotes its top sales person to sales manager, only to see her fail as a manager.
tree68 zugmann I've known managers that had years in the field that were completely useless as managers. The Peter Principle Personified... Of course, there's always the percussive sublimation (kicked upstairs) and the lateral arabesque (sounds like a promotion, but isn't...)
zugmann I've known managers that had years in the field that were completely useless as managers.
PJS1 zugmann jeffhergert Or a degree in English Literature. Jeff I've known managers that had years in the field that were completely useless as managers. And managers that came fresh out of college with a non-railroad degree that were awesome managers. Generalizations and all that. The skills required to be an effective supervisor/manager are different than the skills to be a top performer in one's field. The classical example is the organization that promotes its top sales person to sales manager, only to see her fail as a manager.
Well, Cotton Belt MP104, I have an idea of how you felt. I was taking care of the chemicals and cylinder gases inventories, making certain that we di not run out of anything necessary in our manufacturing process. One day, my manager told me he wanted to make me a supervisor--and I declined, telling him that I did not have the personality necessary for that (Several years earlier, I had taken a course in supervising, and realized that such work was not for me). He did not press the matter,
I interacted directly with people in various other departments and with several suppliers--and I enjoyed my work.
Johnny
Deggesty Well, Cotton Belt MP104, I have an idea of how you felt. I was taking care of the chemicals and cylinder gases inventories, making certain that we di not run out of anything necessary in our manufacturing process. One dy, my manager told me he wanted to make me a supervisor--and I declined, telling him that I did not have the personality necessary for that (Several years earlier, I had taken a course in supervising, and realized that such work was not for me). He did not press the matter, I interacted directly with people in various other departments and with several suppliers--and I enjoyed my work.
Well, Cotton Belt MP104, I have an idea of how you felt. I was taking care of the chemicals and cylinder gases inventories, making certain that we di not run out of anything necessary in our manufacturing process. One dy, my manager told me he wanted to make me a supervisor--and I declined, telling him that I did not have the personality necessary for that (Several years earlier, I had taken a course in supervising, and realized that such work was not for me). He did not press the matter,
Cotton Belt MP104..i am a retired educator
As one myself, I am somewhat surprised by your writing style. Atypical, to say the least, but maybe it worked for you.
charlie hebdo Cotton Belt MP104 ..i am a retired educator As one myself, I am somewhat surprised by your writing style. Atypical, to say the least, but maybe it worked for you.
Cotton Belt MP104 ..i am a retired educator
end of personal dialogue to the dude that calls himself charlie hebdo.........
where did that handle come from dude........regards mike
endmrw0623181505
Randy StahlThe RfE's have actual years of experience and most of the class one TMs have a degree in logistics. I guess thats the new way of doing things.
I heard indirectly that that was what was happening on CN during the EHH years.
He felt experienced people were too union friendly, and over time, post EHH, it turned out recent collage degree holders would prove to be unqualified to do the job.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Cotton Belt MP104 I don't worry about english/grammer/spelling/punctuation
zardoz Cotton Belt MP104 I don't worry about english/grammer/spelling/punctuation Obviously.
Obviously.
That comment goes a long way in explaining why his posts are unreadable.
CSSHEGEWISCH zardoz Cotton Belt MP104 I don't worry about english/grammer/spelling/punctuation Obviously. That comment goes a long way in explaining why his posts are unreadable.
I don't care what people say - just make it readable.
I get a number of the 'if you can read this you are a genius' posts on Facebook. I can read the crap - but I don't WANT to. I don't want to take the effort to read gobledeegook from someone that won't take the time, and curtesey to convey their thoughts in the generally acceptable form. Doing so says that they themselves have no respect for whatever ideas they are trying to convey. Posting in a crap format you are telling your audience - this crap isn't worth reading.
Yes, Balt, when you and I were in school, teachers taught how to communicate clearly.
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