Or on the Rochelle webcam.
The word is that next month, permitted manifest train lengths will go from 15000 feet to 18000 feet. If that goes well, the ultimate goal is 20000 (I've also heard 21000) feet. To run that big will require mid-train and rear-train DP consists.
In a way, it will be life imitating art. Most model railroaders have had the problem of the front end of a train being in one town, while the back end is in another. Now, the real ones will at times have that same opprotunity.
Jeff
Ugh! Let us know, if you can, when you get something over 15K: cars, tonnage, DP status, etc.
21,000 feet would be four miles--there's nowhere around here that can hold one of those, and it would be something like five tracks in our receiving yard.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Makes those 4 mile stretches of 'double track' into nothng more than passing sidings
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Getting closer to John Kneiling-length trains. I recall him writing of properly maintained seven mile slide-on, slide-off container trains using train-order dispatching, cutting out the superfluous costs of signal systems and such to take advantage of railroading’s best advantage.
Do all appropriate analysis and planning. If that shows a good result, give it a try.
If it doesn't work, quit doing it. If it does work, continue doing it.
We make progress by trial and error.
greyhounds Do all appropriate analysis and planning. If that shows a good result, give it a try. If it doesn't work, quit doing it. If it does work, continue doing it. We make progress by trial and error.
If grades (and I am not talking about mountain grades) were as continuous as some people like to think they are - handling a 4 mile long train would be a snap as the in train forces would be easily manageable. However, even the 'flatlands' are far from flat - the flatlands undulate - 10 feet here, 8 feet there, a sag, a knoll - meanwhile the in train slack is doing it's dance - run in here - run out there at multiple points within the length of the train all at one time - many of them uncontrollable even with multiple DPU units in the consist.
Better carry a book in the car or something to keep you occupied.
Cant imagine a 20,000 (4 mile) UP in the western suburbs of Chicago on a restricting signal.
Ed
MP173Better carry a book in the car or something to keep you occupied.
And we think we have a problem with people running the gates now...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Spot on! I cannot think of many activities, if any, where the initial practices did not have to be adjusted. And sometimes what seemed like a good idea in theory failed in practice and had to be abandoned.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
BaltACD ...handling a 4 mile long train would be a snap...
Isn't that what train handling is supposed to avoid?
ChuckCobleigh BaltACD ...handling a 4 mile long train would be a snap... Isn't that what train handling is supposed to avoid?
Johnny
Deggesty ChuckCobleigh BaltACD ...handling a 4 mile long train would be a snap... Isn't that what train handling is supposed to avoid? Careful, Chuck; you're on Carl's ground.
Careful, Chuck; you're on Carl's ground.
Undulating grades in the 'flatlands' is what gives slack it's snap!
JPS1 greyhounds Do all appropriate analysis and planning. If that shows a good result, give it a try. If it doesn't work, quit doing it. If it does work, continue doing it. We make progress by trial and error. Spot on! I cannot think of many activities, if any, where the initial practices did not have to be adjusted. And sometimes what seemed like a good idea in theory failed in practice and had to be abandoned.
As long as a certain percentage makes it with no excessive problems, it will be deemed a success. What that magic number is, I don't know.
The other day, We put together a 14,525 foot manifest. The train was on 4 tracks and we were lucky, no bad orders to set out. We started about 1045pm and finished up about 130am. We had a few crossings blocked for almost the entire time. A few others between 30 to 60 minutes. For about 20 minutes we had every crossing in town that we could block, blocked. And we only had a couple of minor problems. The time involved was more for the conductor's travel than the fixes themselves. I had to have him operate the manual release box on an automatic interlocking (BNSF crossing) but that gave me the chance to tell him in person (instead of over the radio) to check the angelcock ahead of the DP. We had a utility brakeman helping who made the joint and was to cut in the air. He forgot one step which the conductor took care of.
With a couple of other delays, which resulted in a blocked crossings, we didn't make it in on our HOS. The train itself for a manifest wasn't too bad to run. Out of 244 cars, there were only 35 with cushioned, long-travel drawbars. That makes the difference, especially when strung out through the sags and over the humps.
Hey, Jeff, what is the status of UP’s long, long trains efforts in your neck of the woods?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Saw a BNSF monster eastbound on the Hesperia webcam yesterday had it set up in a 3+2+1 configuration.
So far, nothing's changed. 15000' is still the maximum length for manifests.
Shortly after the talk of longer trains started, a few changes happened. The fuel conservation throttle limitations, only having enough power on-line to drag over the hills and use of energy management systems all were (for the time being) discontinued. Word is they want velocity up. That they were close to losing a large intermodal contract because of service complaints. (Complaining about paying premium prices but not getting premium service.)
One of the through manifests still can run up to 15K. It's been smaller more often (under 9000') than it used to be, but I think that's due to traffic levels. The one manifest that used to leave NP up to 15K and then set out the rear half (sometimes the rear 3/4) at my home treminal usually runs only with through cars. The "short" set out cars usually running as a manifest extra out of NP. (Tomorrow's estimated train is back to being a big one. 13K with a 160 car set out.)
I suspect they're gathering numbers to compare current operations with the past fuel conservation practices. To see if it's cost effective to move freight in a timely manner. I just hope they won't cherry-pick data to validate a preconceived conclusion. Namely, protecting a low operating ratio.
greyhoundsWe make progress by trial and error.
Railroads wil never admit error. Ever.
If it doesn't work, it must be the fault of labor.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Roughly how long would it take to put a 50 car train together, and get underway, compared to a 250 car train?
SOP--Stupid Operating Pratice lives on
Gramp Roughly how long would it take to put a 50 car train together, and get underway, compared to a 250 car train?
Putting the power on a short train and testing the EOT takes under an hour in my experience, at which point it is ready to depart.
A long manifest in the 10,000' to 14,000' range regularity takes 3-4 hours, and may be delayed further if the road crew has a lot of bad orders to set out, or is required to switch the DP unit into the middle of a track. Meanwhile the long train is blocking the lead and/or main track, delaying other trains that are otherwise ready to arrive or depart the yard.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
[quote user="rdamon"]
[/quote]
At least once a week there is one of those 3-2-1)or 2 on rearDPU's through here? They seem to be on Thursdays after 2PM) They{BNSF} seems to favor the route through Wellington-Wichita-Newton and EB towards KC area [Possibly, lighter gradients?].
I have only caught a couple that were WB [KC-Augusta-Mulvane/Wellington, and Westbnd] My guess is that the Flint Hills on that last route do not favor those long train operations(?).
I wonder how long until some city or town has a train block all its crossings and cause some calamity (a fire burns down something more than a house and people die, emergency vehicles unable to respond to crimes, etc) and sue the railroad. What the time limit for trains blocking crossings is being tested and I suspect that it will be found to be bad PR for the RR's. When the CN took over the EJ&E and started to run more and longer trains around Chicago, there were some agreements made to minimize the blockage of crossings. I don't think the RR's are going to pay for a lot of grade separation projects in the future. But the advent of four mile long trains may find the breaking point. RR's PR flacks push the idea that the RR wants to be a "GOOD NEIGHBOR" but when they block crossings for long times, that idea is moot. In the open prairies of Nebraska and Wyoming, (UP) Arizona and New Mexico (BNSF) there are not many high density towns and they may be able to get away with it. This will be interesting to watch it play out but I suspect there will be pain.
A four mile long freight train is insanity. There, I've said it and I'm glad.
And for what? To save a few miserable dollars on crew salarys? It'll be a lot cheaper to pay the salarys than to pay out for the lawsuits Electroliner posited may very well happen.
By the way, the Union Pacific once had a Big Boy pull a freight train five miles long (I don't know how far, it might have been only a few feet) but they had the sense back then to do it one time only, and as a PR stunt.
I even have doubts about two mile long trains, considering there's only two crewmen nowadays. How'd you like to hike two miles down the line looking for a problem car? I'm sure some have had to do it. Go with a four mile train and they'll have to store a motor scooter on the lead unit, or at least a trail bike.
Does common sense even exist anymore? It seems to be in short supply with those running American businesses nowadays. Most seem to be proving the truth of the old saying "They're too smart for their own good!"
Agree 100% with Firelock...it is insanity. Something very very bad will come out of this folly.
They take out the double or triple track just about everywhere and now extending and constructing sidings of great length enough so that it was better to retain the original multi track in the first place. Chasing their own tails...literally.
But they're saving a crew! Well, until there isn't room for the mega giant train in the yard, so it blows up outside and they have to send a second crew to go get it.
But I think that's a different budget.
[quote user="samfp1943"]
Sam, BNSF has designated Wellington-Mulvane-Wichita-Newton to Ellinor for eastward movement and Ellinor-Augusta-Mulvane-Wellington for westward movement. There is no grade of significance on either route. When there are problems on one route (for a significant time) the other route can handle movements in either direction.
zugmannand they have to send a second crew to go get it
Actually, that may be the third crew. The first crew, by the time the train is back together after removing a bad order and solving some locomotive issues, gets it out of town a ways to a long siding. Now they sit for four hours waiting for several opposing priority trains, since they are all too long for the next several sidings. Move on another fifty miles and repeat. And don't forget the taxis required to relieve each crew.
But you definitely save a "train start" so your management bonus is secure.
Holding certain alleged measures of operating efficiency as sacred or being obsessed with them is not new. For example:
John Kneiling used to harp about this - esp. the first one - too.
- PDN.
Firelock76Does common sense even exist anymore? It seems to be in short supply with those running American businesses nowadays. Most seem to be proving the truth of the old saying "They're too smart for their own good!"
I've seen that behavior happen so often that I no longer doubt its veracity.
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