Wonder what would happen if the write up was "Car bcd defective brake outside air temperature - 25 degrees C temperature "
SD70DudeTeck's Cardinal River mine has since closed, with their last train running about a month ago. Trains no longer operate on the Luscar Industrial Spur.
I would guess CN knew that the mine closing was coming and didn't want to expend the money to fix things - since they felt they could get by with bad brakes on all their other line; or the Car Dept personnel looked at the defect when it was warmer and the defects disappeared - like magic.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I went back and worked this line again for a while last year. After this runaway it gradually became required to do a No. 1A air brake test and walking inspection of the train before departing each mine.
The results were quite eye-opening and rather depressing. Nearly every train had at least a few cars that would not hold their air brake application in cold weather, a good number of them never set up at all. Still others were already cut out and not reported on the train journal or brake status report. And the defective cars would return in the same condition even after we reported them to the mechanical department. One memorable car was reported seven (7) times before finally being fixed, or it may simply have been placed in service to a different mine.
Different types of cars had different failure rates, with older cars having more problems (not a surprise). The best cars were the leased CEFX 600000 series, while the worst were CN's own cars and the FLCX 98000 series.
In the interests of both safety and saving time we switched to moderately applying a handbrake on each defective car if the 95% operative brake threshold was not met. As Mark said, sometimes the retainer would hold the air brake application, sometimes it would not.
I'm disappointed that the report does not mention all the air brake problems that continued to occur even after this runaway. I am also disappointed that the 2008 runaway that also got up to over 50 mph on this grade was not mentioned either.
Teck's Cardinal River mine has since closed, with their last train running about a month ago. Trains no longer operate on the Luscar Industrial Spur.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
". Any cars that do not set up are to be reported to the Mechanical Department and the train must not depart the mine unless 95% of the cars have operative brakes. If the train does not meet this standard retainers are to be set on cars that leak off."
Depending on what causes the brakes to leak off, retainers may not be able to have any effect.
SD70DudeThe TSB report has been released: https://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2018/r18e0007/r18e0007.html
https://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2018/r18e0007/r18e0007.html
And nothing derailed. Which I find more amazing than anything the report identifies.
SD70Dude The TSB report has been released: https://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2018/r18e0007/r18e0007.html
The TSB report has been released:
zugmann SD70Dude Are unit coal trains in the U.S. required to undergo a air brake test after loading at a mine? Soudns like these cars had major prblems that should have been caught before this ill-fated run.
SD70Dude Are unit coal trains in the U.S. required to undergo a air brake test after loading at a mine?
Soudns like these cars had major prblems that should have been caught before this ill-fated run.
Yep.
Those No. 1 air tests are quite often done by a guy on a ATV zooming up and down the tracks. The Carmen are under a huge amount of pressure to hurry up and release trains to clear out the yard faster. When you are hurrying stuff gets missed. It's not right but it continues to happen.
I am surprised that after 21 months in storage the cars were not required to go through more thorough testing, such as a full COTS inspection.
More recently I heard of another occurrence that can only be described as a very near miss. The crew of a 60 car limestone train (also on the Alberta Coal Branch) reported that it was not braking properly, requiring much heavier applications to control. That trainset was examined in Edmonton, and among other things eight (8) cars were found cut out. That is over 13% of your braking ability disabled. And this was not reported on the No. 1 brake status report the original crew received.
None of the crews who handled that train reported cutting any cars out, and the Carmen who tested it claimed that every car applied normally. CN management decided that vandals must have cut the cars out, and the investigation ended there.
No one really believes that vandals cut out 8 cars in 8 different places throughout the train, but it was a convenient excuse to shift away blame.
I spoke with a couple friends from the Coal Branch, and crews are now required to perform a brake test and walking inspection of the train prior to departing the mine at Luscar. Any cars that do not set up are to be reported to the Mechanical Department and the train must not depart the mine unless 95% of the cars have operative brakes. If the train does not meet this standard retainers are to be set on cars that leak off.
SD70DudeAre unit coal trains in the U.S. required to undergo a air brake test after loading at a mine?
Ray Charles working as a car inspector again?
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
BaltACD zugmann I know Canada's regulations differ than ours - but no initial air test? I mean half of the brakes not working? Yeesh. No initial terminal brake test shocked the s..t out of me. Especially when traversing territory with 3% grades.
zugmann I know Canada's regulations differ than ours - but no initial air test? I mean half of the brakes not working? Yeesh.
No initial terminal brake test shocked the s..t out of me. Especially when traversing territory with 3% grades.
The train would have undergone a No. 1 air brake test by the car department at the yard where it originated, most likely Prince George, BC in this case. Having received a No. 1 air test no additional tests would be required unless the equipment was left off air for longer than 24 hours.
By rule, the crew would have had to perform a continuity test after running around the train (this mine does not have a loop), nothing more. Any additional air test involving a walking inspection of the train could be construed as deliberately delaying the train.
Unit coal trains in CN's Western Canada service normally undergo a No. 1 test when the empty train arrives in Kamloops or Prince George, and this test is good for the rest of the train's cycle (unless of course it is left off air for over 24 hours).
Are unit coal trains in the U.S. required to undergo a air brake test after loading at a mine?
zardoz SD70Dude http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/medias-media/sur-safe/letter/rail/2018/r18e0007/r18e0007-617-04-18.asp The last paragraph (emphasis mine): "Given the potential consequences of a loss of braking function due to brake valve failure, Transport Canada may wish to alert railways and car owners of the need to examine the brake valve functionality of cars that have been in long term storage, particularly if the cars are to be used in cold weather service." MAY wish to alert railways?!?!?!?!?
SD70Dude http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/medias-media/sur-safe/letter/rail/2018/r18e0007/r18e0007-617-04-18.asp
The last paragraph (emphasis mine): "Given the potential consequences of a loss of braking function due to brake valve failure, Transport Canada may wish to alert railways and car owners of the need to examine the brake valve functionality of cars that have been in long term storage, particularly if the cars are to be used in cold weather service."
MAY wish to alert railways?!?!?!?!?
The TSB is only allowed to make recommendations, and does not have the power to enact legislation or regulations.
Need the Dude to weigh in and clarify... maybe cx500 as well.
Does the word "may" have a more demanding connotation in Canadian English than in USA English?
tree68 BaltACD No initial terminal brake test shocked the s..t out of me. Especially when traversing territory with 3% grades. "We've never had a problem before..."
BaltACD No initial terminal brake test shocked the s..t out of me. Especially when traversing territory with 3% grades.
"We've never had a problem before..."
Safety culture or the lack thereof?
BaltACDNo initial terminal brake test shocked the s..t out of me. Especially when traversing territory with 3% grades.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
zugmannI know Canada's regulations differ than ours - but no initial air test? I mean half of the brakes not working? Yeesh.
SD70Dudehttp://tsb.gc.ca/eng/medias-media/sur-safe/letter/rail/2018/r18e0007/r18e0007-617-04-18.asp
I know Canada's regulations differ than ours - but no initial air test? I mean half of the brakes not working? Yeesh.
No mention of a cleaning bill for the crew's underwear. Extreme Stress.
Another update:
http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/medias-media/sur-safe/letter/rail/2018/r18e0007/r18e0007-617-04-18.asp
Turns out if you park stuff for a couple years and don't do maintenance it might develop some problems. Who knew!?
Winter is coming once again out here, they are forecasting snow within the next week.
SD70Dude BaltACD 2008 - Wasn't EHH the top dog on CN then? Dead men tell no tales. That is correct. While these runaways have fortunately not resulted in any fatalities (yet), other incidents under EHH's tenure did, which made them harder to cover up. These two were both directly caused by his cuts: http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2003/r03v0083/r03v0083.asp http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2006/r06v0136/r06v0136.asp
BaltACD 2008 - Wasn't EHH the top dog on CN then? Dead men tell no tales.
2008 - Wasn't EHH the top dog on CN then? Dead men tell no tales.
That is correct.
While these runaways have fortunately not resulted in any fatalities (yet), other incidents under EHH's tenure did, which made them harder to cover up. These two were both directly caused by his cuts:
http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2003/r03v0083/r03v0083.asp
http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2006/r06v0136/r06v0136.asp
In the second pdf, at 1.14.4, they mention the missing sensor plate on the empty/load sensor on the derailed car, but state that this did not affect the sensor's performance. Are they saying that the car was loaded enough to contact the frame anyway, or that the sensor was adjusted to the proper gap from the frame to sense the load? Apparently, missing plates were fairly common. It seems to me that the main problem with missing plates might be risking damage or wear to the sensor arm from the rough surface of the frame.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Thank You.
SD70DudeA final note, when the crew of the January 10 runaway were interviewed by the TSB they mentioned the 2008 runaway in passing. The investigators really perked up at that, and their next words were "what runaway!?". Guess CN never bothered to report that incident.
Guess CN never bothered to report that incident.
The saga continues.
The latest trainset to run up to Luscar (this one is composed of cars from CN's Western Canada coal fleet, and I believe it has been in service to the Alberta Coal Branch for quite some time) has also experienced severe braking issues.
The first section of the train was operated by one of CN's most experienced Engineers, a man with 40+ years of service. Upon departing the mine he did not feel the train was braking properly, immediately set a heavy application and managed to bring it to a stop on the hill. The Conductor then applied a number of handbrakes, and they proceeded down the hill with a full service air brake application on the train, in addition to the handbrakes. This is far more braking effort than should ever be needed, and I believe their prompt actions prevented another runaway.
The second section operated in quite reasonable weather conditions, with the temperature around -15°C. This train also did not brake well, and required a full service air brake application and full dynamic braking effort to hold it back.
Both crews reported this behaviour to the proper authorities, and our head ESO (Engine Service Officer, CN-ese for Road Foreman of Engines) went to Luscar yesterday to ride the third and final section of this train. I have not yet heard how that trip went, but believe they made it down the hill safely.
I am sure the TSB investigators will be quite interested in this train too.
A final note, when the crew of the January 10 runaway were interviewed by the TSB they mentioned the 2008 runaway in passing. The investigators really perked up at that, and their next words were "what runaway!?".
BLS53I believe Norm has made previous mention he has an aviation background. If this is the case, I find it strange he's uncomfortable dealing with Celcius temps.
I'm not uncomfortable with Celsius, I just find the scale too crude for judging human comfort.
Norm
I'm close enough to the border that I can (and do) often listen to Canadian radio stations. I've learned that +10C is about +50F, and +20C is +68F. +30C is around +90F, and just too danged hot.
A +70F day with near 100% relative humidity is perfectly livable, while +90F with 100% humidity is intolerable. OTOH, in the winter, when humidity in the house drops down to near single digits, many folks run a humidifier - and that can help raise the perceived temperature in the house.
Miningman Canada converted to Metric April 1 1975..Cold Turkey too!, ...just like that. The great unwashed mumbled a lot but to no avail. It is done and for a considerable amount of time now. No one talks Deg. F any longer. SD70Dude is a younger chap, probably not even born yet in 1975. He grew up and was taught in school Deg C always. Surely Norm you can do the conversion yourself. Another suggestion would be to put a simple auto conversion calculator on your desktop..just plug in a number and bingo. As Overmod states, and have I in the past several times, -25 is just damn cold C or F. Also, as Overmod alluded to, at -40 C and F are the same. Travelling through the USA last summer all the weather temperatures were in deg F. It was like going back in time for me and I found myself converting to C just to see if we come close to that at home. Of course the humidity was way off, we do not get that thick stuff in Saskatchewan but they do in Toronto and Southern Ontario. The humidity was the real difference. How on earth do you breath in that stuff?
Canada converted to Metric April 1 1975..Cold Turkey too!, ...just like that. The great unwashed mumbled a lot but to no avail. It is done and for a considerable amount of time now. No one talks Deg. F any longer.
SD70Dude is a younger chap, probably not even born yet in 1975. He grew up and was taught in school Deg C always.
Surely Norm you can do the conversion yourself. Another suggestion would be to put a simple auto conversion calculator on your desktop..just plug in a number and bingo.
As Overmod states, and have I in the past several times, -25 is just damn cold C or F. Also, as Overmod alluded to, at -40 C and F are the same.
Travelling through the USA last summer all the weather temperatures were in deg F. It was like going back in time for me and I found myself converting to C just to see if we come close to that at home. Of course the humidity was way off, we do not get that thick stuff in Saskatchewan but they do in Toronto and Southern Ontario.
The humidity was the real difference. How on earth do you breath in that stuff?
I believe Norm has made previous mention he has an aviation background. If this is the case, I find it strange he's uncomfortable dealing with Celcius temps.
blue streak 1Faranheit set up his scale who knows why 32 F = freezing
Erikem mentioned this on page one. He made zero the freezing point of saturated salt water--apparently the coldest common substance he could think of.
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