In the new derailment, only 4 cars out of 175 derailed. Sounds like they were luckier this time.
And again: http://wjactv.com/news/local/breaking-four-train-cars-derail-in-hyndman
BaltACD rdamon Randy Stahl Deggesty My brothers were not Poles, but one spoke to me, more than 50 years ago, of moving cars that way at the TC&I wire mill in Ensley. The West Milwaukee shops were 70% Poles. Is that why they used to have pole pockets on locomotives
rdamon Randy Stahl Deggesty My brothers were not Poles, but one spoke to me, more than 50 years ago, of moving cars that way at the TC&I wire mill in Ensley. The West Milwaukee shops were 70% Poles. Is that why they used to have pole pockets on locomotives
Randy Stahl Deggesty My brothers were not Poles, but one spoke to me, more than 50 years ago, of moving cars that way at the TC&I wire mill in Ensley. The West Milwaukee shops were 70% Poles.
Deggesty My brothers were not Poles, but one spoke to me, more than 50 years ago, of moving cars that way at the TC&I wire mill in Ensley.
My brothers were not Poles, but one spoke to me, more than 50 years ago, of moving cars that way at the TC&I wire mill in Ensley.
The West Milwaukee shops were 70% Poles.
Is that why they used to have pole pockets on locomotives
I suppose Euc was "participating" in poling as well?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
zugmann BaltACD Can't drop up a grade. Wouldn't want to use it up much of a grade, but it can move a car up small inclines. Many tracks aren't graded as they ideally should be to facilitate dropping. Many of the feed mills we serve are graded the right way. But they are mostly old places, so I guess some thought was put into that sort of thing back then.
BaltACD Can't drop up a grade. Wouldn't want to use it up much of a grade, but it can move a car up small inclines. Many tracks aren't graded as they ideally should be to facilitate dropping.
Many of the feed mills we serve are graded the right way. But they are mostly old places, so I guess some thought was put into that sort of thing back then.
- PDN.
zugmann Shadow the Cats owner Here is how easy it is for one of my drivers to drop a trailer for a customer. He spots it in the location our customer wants it. Lowers the landing gear disconnects 2 airlines climbs in the cab pulls a knob on his dash and pulls away. No climbing to crank a brakewheel or using a brake stick to crank it on it either. Just crank the dolly legs down disconnect 2 airlines and remotely pull his 5th wheel and they are gone. Ok, then can the customer throw a chain around the trailer and drag it over top an unloading pit? Then let it roll down via gravity so it is out of the way for the next one? I can probably crank a brake on faster than it takes someone to lower landing gear, BTW. Mrs. B., not to sound disrepectful - but there's a pretty large difference how railcars are handled vs. trucks. Namely restricted space of where there are actual rails. Then you have the trucks that think those shiny things make great parking spaces. Ugh. But on a broader scale, it's not a matter of the actual brakes. It's a matter of how railcars are handled at many industries. It would be like you taking the wheels off your trailer when you drop it off. It still can be moved - but it isn't practical.
Shadow the Cats owner Here is how easy it is for one of my drivers to drop a trailer for a customer. He spots it in the location our customer wants it. Lowers the landing gear disconnects 2 airlines climbs in the cab pulls a knob on his dash and pulls away. No climbing to crank a brakewheel or using a brake stick to crank it on it either. Just crank the dolly legs down disconnect 2 airlines and remotely pull his 5th wheel and they are gone.
Ok, then can the customer throw a chain around the trailer and drag it over top an unloading pit? Then let it roll down via gravity so it is out of the way for the next one? I can probably crank a brake on faster than it takes someone to lower landing gear, BTW.
Mrs. B., not to sound disrepectful - but there's a pretty large difference how railcars are handled vs. trucks. Namely restricted space of where there are actual rails. Then you have the trucks that think those shiny things make great parking spaces. Ugh.
But on a broader scale, it's not a matter of the actual brakes. It's a matter of how railcars are handled at many industries. It would be like you taking the wheels off your trailer when you drop it off. It still can be moved - but it isn't practical.
That'd have to be one big caging bolt for a maxibrake on a railroad car............
Randy Vos
"Ever have one of those days where you couldn't hit the ground with your hat??" - Waylon Jennings
"May the Lord take a liking to you and blow you up, real good" - SCTV
cx500 You also presuppose that the shipper/receiver who has to move the railcar has a supply of compressed air available, with a connection at the physical location of the car. Remember, it could have been a string of cars set off at the siding. Some use trackmobiles, a lot may use cable winches, especially smaller grain elevators. And then the occasional tow by rope and pick-up truck in a pinch. You can even move rail equipment by hand with a "carmover"; slow but surprisingly effective, several inches at a time.
You also presuppose that the shipper/receiver who has to move the railcar has a supply of compressed air available, with a connection at the physical location of the car. Remember, it could have been a string of cars set off at the siding. Some use trackmobiles, a lot may use cable winches, especially smaller grain elevators. And then the occasional tow by rope and pick-up truck in a pinch. You can even move rail equipment by hand with a "carmover"; slow but surprisingly effective, several inches at a time.
BaltACDCan't drop up a grade. Wouldn't want to use it up much of a grade, but it can move a car up small inclines. Many tracks aren't graded as they ideally should be to facilitate dropping.
Which is why it is "basic".
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann BaltACD The most basic of rail car movers! I would say 2nd most basic. Dropping them would be most basic.
BaltACD The most basic of rail car movers!
I would say 2nd most basic. Dropping them would be most basic.
Can't drop up a grade. Wouldn't want to use it up much of a grade, but it can move a car up small inclines. Many tracks aren't graded as they ideally should be to facilitate dropping.
BaltACDThe most basic of rail car movers!
Johnny
Polish Locomotive
The most basic of rail car movers!
A lot of industries use varying means of moving their railcars on their property that do not involve railcar movers/locomotives/railkings/trackmobiles, etc. It's not an issue of beating up cars. It's an issue of them being able to move their cars to get their product. Any new brake system we invent on this forum has to take that into account.
We are not talking about Lac-Mégantic. That was a whole different issue. But any brake system devised in repsonse to that needs to take into account normal railcar operations over the entire system. And yes, that involves being able to easily and economically move cars sans air. Having parking brakes come on automatically does not allow that. I mean, I'm sure your profession would love that as it would make shipping by rail even more difficult, but that's a story for another day.
And two minutes? I can do a couple brakes in that time.
We routinely drop trailers all over the place in holes 106 inches wide with trailers with doors open that are 104 inches wide. Also we do have customers move our trailers without releasing the brakes it is hard on the tires but it can be done. Have you ever picked up a trailer from an IM yard they drop those things so tight together even a mouse can't get inbetween them. My normal driver can crank the landing gear down in about 2 minutes or less I have personally done it in less helping around the terminal when we were moving trailers around when we expanded the shop. Trust me zugman the normal OTR trailer gets the living hell beat out of it on a normal basis. The worst part is this system works and is foolproof on the saftey issue of losing air for loss of brakes but the costs for the Railroad industry to adapt it would more than likely to high to adapt it. Even though the tech issues are not that severe. It is compatible for any truck in the nation to hook up to any trailer and they can pull it we have 2 air lines one feeds the air into the system the other is the brake pressure signaling line. You lose air pressure the parking brakes are on that simple.
Yes the moving without air could be overcome but something has to be done to prevent accidents like this one or the one in Canada. How would this have prevented the one in Canada if trains had this system he could have set trainwide parking brakes and that train would not have moved an inch. It is a pipe dream I know however it could still happen if someone pushes the idea.
Shadow the Cats ownerHere is how easy it is for one of my drivers to drop a trailer for a customer. He spots it in the location our customer wants it. Lowers the landing gear disconnects 2 airlines climbs in the cab pulls a knob on his dash and pulls away. No climbing to crank a brakewheel or using a brake stick to crank it on it either. Just crank the dolly legs down disconnect 2 airlines and remotely pull his 5th wheel and they are gone.
Paul of CovingtonBack in the '50's it was common to see stenciled on the back of trucks: "CAUTION -- AIR BRAKES."
I had this explained to me at about age 5, when I read this on the back of the fuel-oil truck that periodically serviced our house -- it was on a White 3000 chassis with that wonderfully funky cylindrical cab.
A truck with air brakes can STOP VERY FAST, especially if unloaded, compared to a truck with older forms of brake system. Faster, in fact, than many cars still on the road in the '50s, especially considering reaction time. So it became critically important either to make cars keep greater following distance (hence the note under "Caution-Air Brakes" like "keep back 200 feet") or otherwise warn them not to tailgate.
Of course, nowadays almost any car will stop more quickly, since it's tire contact patch characteristics that limit most modern brake systems in normal traffic, and we all know what happens when an OTR driver hits the trailer brake controller hard... But it's still wise to remember that air-braked trucks can stop fast.
Paul prior to 1950 the OTR industry used vacum brakes on the trailers there was a 50 50 chance the freaking things would not work properly however the tractor brakes where setup with Hydraulics and oversized to compensate for the issues. Then in the 50's when diesel engines started to take over in the industry prior to that gasoline was used also they realized that a straight air system would be more reliable and safer than vac brakes on the trailers.
Here is how easy it is for one of my drivers to drop a trailer for a customer. He spots it in the location our customer wants it. Lowers the landing gear disconnects 2 airlines climbs in the cab pulls a knob on his dash and pulls away. No climbing to crank a brakewheel or using a brake stick to crank it on it either. Just crank the dolly legs down disconnect 2 airlines and remotely pull his 5th wheel and they are gone.
I have a question about truck brakes that's really unrelated to this topic. Back in the '50's it was common to see stenciled on the back of trucks: "CAUTION -- AIR BRAKES." Why? Why would it matter to other traffic what kind of brakes the truck had? The only thing I can come up with is that the sudden "PSSSSHH" might startle the driver behind him.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Trains are not trucks.
Being able to drop a car is the simplest of KISS.
Not really. Our shop uses bottled air and nose jacks to be able to move trailers around deep in the shop. All an industry that doesn't have a locomotive or trackmobile to move a car is a air hose setup with a glad hand hooked to an air tank. They apply the needed pressure move the car then release the air. It is the kiss principle the air pressure releases the brakes and also applies them. However below a certain point the pressure is to low and the parking brakes automatically apply. Tomorrow if I get time I'll post a link to a diagram on an OTR braking system. Then you can see how simple and robust they are.
BaltACDI don't know if EHH has changed the brake stick instructions.
From what I understand, he banned their use.
We had to take brakesticks with us for road trains.
zugmannAs far as handbrakes - it's called a brakestick. No climbing required. Well, unless you are unfortunate enough to work for EHH.
Brake sticks were required at 'normal' train tie down points inside terminal limts. Line of road incidents, such as this one would not normally have a brake stick available to use in securing the train 'on the side of the mountain'. That would have been one tired conductor having tied down 58 hand brakes, then continuing to inspect the balance of the train and finding defective condition 100 cars further back in the train.
I don't know if EHH has changed the brake stick instructions.
Shadow the Cats owner Zug the current system is to bleed air from the brakes am I correct maybe keep the air on the parking brakes until the train is made up then release it. The system would be complete with gladhands shutoffs and such. So when switching pump up the parking brakes close all the gladhand shutoffs on both service and the new parking brakes. Then when your done switching pop the valves open and bang there goes the air for the parking brakes. How hard is it to hook up an airhose to move a car then know when it is moved the brakes are not going to back off like they can with the current system or be released by vandals. This system would have stopped the runaway in Canada of the crude oil train why No air pressure in the line the brakes would have come on trainwide and stayed on. If there is a failure in the chamber that does provide the braking force it is a simple swap it out and go not see what part of it has failed. Yes it would take some adjustment for the railroads to get used to however the labor savings just in lost time accidents from not having people fall off cars in the winter would be worth it from releasing handbrakes.
Zug the current system is to bleed air from the brakes am I correct maybe keep the air on the parking brakes until the train is made up then release it. The system would be complete with gladhands shutoffs and such. So when switching pump up the parking brakes close all the gladhand shutoffs on both service and the new parking brakes. Then when your done switching pop the valves open and bang there goes the air for the parking brakes. How hard is it to hook up an airhose to move a car then know when it is moved the brakes are not going to back off like they can with the current system or be released by vandals. This system would have stopped the runaway in Canada of the crude oil train why No air pressure in the line the brakes would have come on trainwide and stayed on. If there is a failure in the chamber that does provide the braking force it is a simple swap it out and go not see what part of it has failed. Yes it would take some adjustment for the railroads to get used to however the labor savings just in lost time accidents from not having people fall off cars in the winter would be worth it from releasing handbrakes.
How do industries move around their own cars? Many move cars without using a locomotive. Your system would make that near impossible if I understand you right.
As far as handbrakes - it's called a brakestick. No climbing required. Well, unless you are unfortunate enough to work for EHH.
As I mentioned earlier, I think most ideas for improving railcars are dead on arrival because of the great standardization that generally requires a committment to full fleet conversion. For as great an idea as ECP is, and considering the oil tank car ECP mandate, I don't think ECP will ever be adopted as standard universal application. I would not even be surprised if the oil car ECP mandate is removed before it gets implemented.
Given this headwind, I think any concept for things like train parking brakes has to be a concept of the utmost simplicity. If I understand what is being proposed here now it is the addition of a 220 volt motorized power brake on each car with an electric cable feeding these brake motors throughout the the train. That brake system with its variety of control functions seems like way more than what would be considered an acceptable addition to the standard freight car.
When I look at freight car brake rigging, I am amazed by the rugged simplicity of brackets, levers, pins, rods, and brake cylinder. There are no bearings on the pivots, no bushings, no lubrication, and no rust control. Yet it is engineering elegance because it is exactly what is needed to do the job and no more.
RME rdamon That could add up quickly on a long train ... ... if you released them all at the same time with a single command, rather than sequencing them via addressed commands over the power bus. (Which is part of my interest in zug's RCO box system.) Suspect that a 'trainlined' version would be designed to be compatible with the ECP 220V line rather than straight locomotive standard voltage, which was no doubt chosen 'because it was there'.
rdamon That could add up quickly on a long train ...
... if you released them all at the same time with a single command, rather than sequencing them via addressed commands over the power bus. (Which is part of my interest in zug's RCO box system.)
Suspect that a 'trainlined' version would be designed to be compatible with the ECP 220V line rather than straight locomotive standard voltage, which was no doubt chosen 'because it was there'.
Not sure I would want to be a Conductor dealing with a UDE in inclement weather with hot 220v electricity being involved. Remember, Murphy was a railroader - If it can fail, it will fail at the most inopportune location, time and weather conditions. If it can't fail - see 'if it can fail'. All the vehicles and devices are made by man - if man buit it, it will fail - it is only a matter of where and when!
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