daveklepperI have not looked at this, but know it may be of use to those of you involved in driver education. From NBCNews.com... Body Cam Video Captures Train Dragging SUV WIth Two Trapped Inside http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/body-cam-video-captures-train-dragging-suv-with-two-trapped-inside-1000501827556?cid=eml_onsite
It appears that the train had stopped, for its own reasons, with railcars blocking the crossing. Automobile driver, for his reasons, disregarded crossing protection that was operating and tried to drive through the train, with expected consequence.
1st responders seem not to have notified the railroad of the happening when they arrived on the scene and when the train got permission to proceed, it did; until it got notified by the 1st responders of the incident.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
This is not the first time automobiles have been stuck under tank cars. Discussions were on this forum about the reflective warning strips that by necessity were too high as compared to regular RR cars.. .
blue streak 1This is not the first time automobiles have been stuck under tank cars. Discussions were on this forum about the reflective warning strips that by necessity were too high as compared to regular RR cars.. .
Police reported gates were down and flashers operating when driver drove through the gates and into the train. If he couldn't see the flashers and gates, he would not be able to see the reflective material on the cars.
BaltACD blue streak 1 This is not the first time automobiles have been stuck under tank cars. Discussions were on this forum about the reflective warning strips that by necessity were too high as compared to regular RR cars.. . Police reported gates were down and flashers operating when driver drove through the gates and into the train. If he couldn't see the flashers and gates, he would not be able to see the reflective material on the cars.
blue streak 1 This is not the first time automobiles have been stuck under tank cars. Discussions were on this forum about the reflective warning strips that by necessity were too high as compared to regular RR cars.. .
Unless he saw the flashers and gates, but assumed there was time to beat the train; and did not see that a train was actually standing on the crossing. In that case, the reflectors would have made the standing train obvious to the driver.
Euclid BaltACD blue streak 1 This is not the first time automobiles have been stuck under tank cars. Discussions were on this forum about the reflective warning strips that by necessity were too high as compared to regular RR cars.. . Police reported gates were down and flashers operating when driver drove through the gates and into the train. If he couldn't see the flashers and gates, he would not be able to see the reflective material on the cars. Unless he saw the flashers and gates, but assumed there was time to beat the train; and did not see that a train was actually standing on the crossing. In that case, the reflectors would have made the standing train obvious to the driver.
Nothing was obvious to the driver! If it had been, the incident would not have happened.
BaltACDPolice reported gates were down and flashers operating when driver drove through the gates and into the train. If he couldn't see the flashers and gates, he would not be able to see the reflective material on the cars.
Did hear a comment on the video that police said there was a possibility that alcohol was involved. That comes under the heading of a smart money bet, I would suppose.
BaltACD Euclid BaltACD blue streak 1 This is not the first time automobiles have been stuck under tank cars. Discussions were on this forum about the reflective warning strips that by necessity were too high as compared to regular RR cars.. . Police reported gates were down and flashers operating when driver drove through the gates and into the train. If he couldn't see the flashers and gates, he would not be able to see the reflective material on the cars. Unless he saw the flashers and gates, but assumed there was time to beat the train; and did not see that a train was actually standing on the crossing. In that case, the reflectors would have made the standing train obvious to the driver. Nothing was obvious to the driver! If it had been, the incident would not have happened.
EuclidUnless he saw the flashers and gates, but assumed there was time to beat the train; and did not see that a train was actually standing on the crossing. In that case, the reflectors would have made the standing train obvious to the driver.
Assumptions piled on assumptions.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Euclid Unless he saw the flashers and gates, but assumed there was time to beat the train; and did not see that a train was actually standing on the crossing. In that case, the reflectors would have made the standing train obvious to the driver.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
If nothing else, this proves that first responders all too often are NOT properly trained on how to deal with accidents related to railroads. Obviously the first step should be to call the railroad, which was apparently not followed.
I'd expect first reponders to have in their materials or at least a readily accessible means of calling the railroad. This could even be tuning their radios to the correct frequency, as I know some police railfans have done in the past.
As far as doing more than the current reflective taping, aren't we reaching the point of "creating a better idiot?".
If you can't heed the lights and gates, well then there isn't much more the railroads can do for you.
BaltACD1st responders seem not to have notified the railroad of the happening when they arrived on the scene and when the train got permission to proceed, it did; until it got notified by the 1st responders of the incident.
What I'm having a problem with is the failure to communicate with the railroad as an important part of securing the accident scene. One would think that a "veteran" officer would know the drill, or that whomever he notified about the accident (presumably giving location) and securing a response from medics would know to contact the emergency number posted at the crossing.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Saturnalia If nothing else, this proves that first responders all too often are NOT properly trained on how to deal with accidents related to railroads. Obviously the first step should be to call the railroad, which was apparently not followed. I'd expect first reponders to have in their materials or at least a readily accessible means of calling the railroad. This could even be tuning their radios to the correct frequency, as I know some police railfans have done in the past.
Murphy Siding Euclid Unless he saw the flashers and gates, but assumed there was time to beat the train; and did not see that a train was actually standing on the crossing. In that case, the reflectors would have made the standing train obvious to the driver. Even if he saw the flashers and gates, but assumed there was time to beat the train; and did not see that a train was actually standing on the crossing, he still broke the law, did something stupid and paid the price. There is no one except the driver to blame in this instance.
Even if he saw the flashers and gates, but assumed there was time to beat the train; and did not see that a train was actually standing on the crossing, he still broke the law, did something stupid and paid the price. There is no one except the driver to blame in this instance.
Don’t be so defensive. I am not suggesting that the driver is blameless. I was just responding to Balt’s comment as he said: “If he couldn't see the flashers and gates, he would not be able to see the reflective material on the cars.”
I don’t think his conclusion necessarily follows his opening premise. My comment to him explains a scenario where the driver could have seen the lights and gates, but failed see the tank cars.
I said it is possible that he saw the flashers and gates, but assumed there was time to beat the train; but he did not see that a train was actually standing on the crossing. In that case, the reflectors would have made the standing train obvious to the driver. So, in my scenario, the driver not only saw the lights and gates, but tried to run them in order to not stop and wait for a train. But his own desparate plan distracted him from seeing the tank cars. It certainly is a plausible explanation.
Brilliant minds have discovered that reflectors on freight cars increase their nighttime conspicuity and save lives. They could have just said that if drivers run into a train, it is their own dang fault because the train has the right of way, and the crossing is marked. But the traffic safety experts do not take such an intolerant view. To them, it is worth saving the life of even a law breaker.
But there were reflective stripes on the cars.
Will be ineresting to find out how far beyond .08 the drivers BAC was.
Remeber the first cop on the scene mentiond alcohal seemed to be involved - even before he go close - the smell must have been strog!
I can say that reflective strips on railroad cars saved me from running into a train that was crossing the old highway between Brookhaven and Wesson one night about 53 years ago. The Mississippi Central crossing of the road had nothing more than the standard fixed signs. It took me a moment to realize what was reflecting my headlights, but I was able to stop in time.
Johnny
Euclid Murphy Siding Euclid Unless he saw the flashers and gates, but assumed there was time to beat the train; and did not see that a train was actually standing on the crossing. In that case, the reflectors would have made the standing train obvious to the driver. Even if he saw the flashers and gates, but assumed there was time to beat the train; and did not see that a train was actually standing on the crossing, he still broke the law, did something stupid and paid the price. There is no one except the driver to blame in this instance. Don’t be so defensive. I am not suggesting that the driver is blameless. I was just responding to Balt’s comment as he said: “If he couldn't see the flashers and gates, he would not be able to see the reflective material on the cars.” I don’t think his conclusion necessarily follows his opening premise. My comment to him explains a scenario where the driver could have seen the lights and gates, but failed see the tank cars. I said it is possible that he saw the flashers and gates, but assumed there was time to beat the train; but he did not see that a train was actually standing on the crossing. In that case, the reflectors would have made the standing train obvious to the driver. So, in my scenario, the driver not only saw the lights and gates, but tried to run them in order to not stop and wait for a train. But his own desparate plan distracted him from seeing the tank cars. It certainly is a plausible explanation. Brilliant minds have discovered that reflectors on freight cars increase their nighttime conspicuity and save lives. They could have just said that if drivers run into a train, it is their own dang fault because the train has the right of way, and the crossing is marked. But the traffic safety experts do not take such an intolerant view. To them, it is worth saving the life of even a law breaker.
SaturnaliaIf nothing else, this proves that first responders all too often are NOT properly trained on how to deal with accidents related to railroads. Obviously the first step should be to call the railroad, which was apparently not followed.
As a first responder, I'd have to agree with that. Our public safety dispatchers have the number for CSX available, but apparently not the number for a short line in the area - I've had to fill them in more than once on that. The blue signs are new since I gave a presentation on how to handle incidents involving the railroad, but there were previous versions of the same thing. I'm not sure an incident involving the railroad automatically generates a call to the railroad by anyone.
That might apply if their radios are in the right band (VHF - High) - many aren't, and many wouldn't have the slightest idea what to do if they did have the right frequency available.
I keep the local CSX frequencies in my tourist line railroad radio, and would not hestitate to notify a train of an issue if it was in the general vicinity. Otherwise it would be a call to the 800 number, or maybe direct to the dispatcher (I have the numbers for the desks handling this area, via some folks "inside").
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Unauthorized personnel broadcasting over restricted radio channels are opening themselves up for some form of prosecution. Railroad, Airline, Police and Fire all have assigned channels for thier exclusive use in their area's of responsibility.
Police do not have authority to broadcast over railroad channels, even if the knew what the operative channel was in a specific incident. Likewise railroad personnel do not have authority to broadcast over other carriers or Police channels.
Radio skip can create havoc when transmissions end up landing in areas they were not intended to reach.
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BaltACDUnauthorized personnel broadcasting over restricted radio channels are opening themselves up for some form of prosecution. Railroad, Airline, Police and Fire all have assigned channels for thier exclusive use in their area's of responsibility.
Indeed - the fine can be up to $10,000 with jail time if the FCC gets ahold of you (last time I checked). They tend to take a dim view of such actions.
This is why when I suggest a "ham" radio for scanning use I also say to disable the transmit...
Those of us who know railroad radio, either by using it, or because we listen a lot, will know the lingo, and the rhythm. The same is true of emergency services. While similar, they are not the same.
Our local law enforcement folks will go to "emergency traffic" if there's something going down. Translation: If it doesn't have anything to do with the event at hand - stay off the air.
Likewise, in the railroad business, we know enough not to discuss what's for lunch while another crew is trying to switch. We have enough trouble with two crews trying to switch at the same time...
Any active railfan who doesn't have the appropriate emergency number(s) programmed into their phone (or at least on a paper in their wallet) needs to do so. Those numbers are the primary way for the public (including emergency services) to access the railroad.
I mentioned that I have local RR frequencies in my RR radio - but you won't hear me on the air away from our line unless calling the RR will delay a response in a life-or-death situation. First choice is the phone.
Reflective tape on the side of trailers and cars nothing but a feel good regulation in my eyes. My industry has had in since the mid 90's as a required piece of equipment and drivers can be fined for not having it on their trailers and the back of the tractors even. Yet we still get rearended at night even with at my carrier pulling polished stainless steel tank trailers and polished aluminum pnenmatic tanker trailers and with stainless doors on the van trailers. Heck Tesla couldn't even program their autopilot to look for the red and white decals on a trailer and it led to a man on autopilot going under a trailer in Florida and that one removed his head. People drive distracted to the point we need cameras on our trucks to save us in accidents to prove what happened before the accident happened. BTW car companies are installing those same cameras on newer cars now GM and Chrysler both have what they call a 360 degree surrond that records what is going on around you.
Anymore you need to install a monkey to stop some people from driving with their heads in their phones.
Shadow the Cats ownerReflective tape on the side of trailers and cars nothing but a feel good regulation in my eyes.
We just lost three employees of a local ambulance company and a doctor to an incident where a milk tanker (generally nice, shiny stainless steel) jacknifed (swerved to miss a deer), ended up crosswise in the road, no lights (cables pulled when he jacknifed) and two vehicles (3 in one, the doc in the other) went under the trailer - with predictable results...
Don't know exact timing - the first vehicle may have been too close to avoid (I haven't heard/seen specifics), but the doc came well after, but didn't see the trailer.
I know of one driver that probably still has a job (at least a truck) because of it. Crew in my terminal was leaving an industry (luckily not at track speed yet) when they came upon a tractor trailer high-centered on a crossing (this is a piddly little road the locals use a shortcut - and has big high-centered truck warning signs on each end). What caught the crew's eyes were the reflective stripes on the side of the trailer. They were able to come to a stop before making the one big trailer into three smaller trailers.
And I've ran behind several tractor trailers with their trailer lights not working (at night) to be thankful for the reflective striping on their trucks. It's also nice in intermodal yards. I know the stuff is expensive as crap, but I beleive it is more than "feely good".
Shadow the Cats ownerReflective tape on the side of trailers and cars nothing but a feel good regulation in my eyes. My industry has had in since the mid 90's as a required piece of equipment and drivers can be fined for not having it on their trailers and the back of the tractors even. Yet we still get rearended at night even with at my carrier pulling polished stainless steel tank trailers and polished aluminum pnenmatic tanker trailers and with stainless doors on the van trailers. Heck Tesla couldn't even program their autopilot to look for the red and white decals on a trailer and it led to a man on autopilot going under a trailer in Florida and that one removed his head. People drive distracted to the point we need cameras on our trucks to save us in accidents to prove what happened before the accident happened. BTW car companies are installing those same cameras on newer cars now GM and Chrysler both have what they call a 360 degree surrond that records what is going on around you. Anymore you need to install a monkey to stop some people from driving with their heads in their phones.
Locally, school busses have a lot of reflective tape on their rear surfaces to increase their visibility after dark, when many of them are carrying children for either early opening or late closing schools. Between the flashing red lights and the reflective surfaces it is very evident what is stopping ahead of you is a school bus making a stop. However, the fronts of those busses have very little if any reflective material applied - just relying on the flashing lights to identify them as a school bus. On busy two lane roads, in my humble estimation, the low intensity flashing lights don't draw enough attention for it to SHOUT SCHOOL BUS!
Now that I am retired, I am rarely on the roads when school busses operate in the dark - but visibility front and rear of school busses can and will save lives.
BaltACDOn busy two lane roads, in my humble estimation, the low intensity flashing lights don't draw enough attention for it to SHOUT SCHOOL BUS!
Don't the busses out your way have the clear strobes on the roof?
What really bugs me is the all-too-common lack of sunshades on the flashing amber/red lamps. In low sun situations, the flashers are all but bleached out. And don't get me started with the flush mounted square lamps the one manufacturer (Thomas?) uses. Those pretty much suck. Sad when trash trucks have better warning lights.
The accident rate overall is the same before and after the tape was mandated on OTR trucks. The DOT and FMCSA thought it was going to save lives however it really hasn't what needs to be taught instead is how to share the road with large vechiles on the road. When in 80% and that stat is from Federal Highway stats the car involved in the accident with the CMV is at fault for the accident that is the real issue. Yes from time to time it may save someone however the tape gets dirty loses reflective flash over time gets damaged and other things. For us it is one more thing we have to maintain that is expensive as heck. 78 bucks a roll is what it costs for the tape. Then there is the fines if the tape isn't good enough in the DOT officers eyes so to speak. Yep a DOT officer without a scale can fine even place a vechile OOS for missing or damaged reflective tape on the trailer.
As for school busses they do need more lights on the front of them maybe add flashing ditch lights to them when they kick in the yellow flashers to warn the traffic that is oncoming. Sorry my MIL drove a school bus for 15 years and I agree they do need more on the front a childs life is the most important thing anyone can carry. But what do we know as people that work in the transportion industry compared to people that all they have is book learning. Heck according to some DOT officals my boss still doesn't know how to run his carrier and he started off in the wash rack during his college years he now has a MBA.
I wonder how many DOT officials have ever been involved in the operation of a truck line, and thus know more about the operation of such than can be gained through the study of "rules."
zugmannDon't the busses out your way have the clear strobes on the roof?
That's spotty around here - one or two districts do, the rest don't. I don't think it's a requirement, yet. What the busses do have is the swing-out stop signs - with lights. Those get ignored, too. I'm sure many of us have seen the video of the woman who drove on a city sidewalk to avoid stopping for a bus...
One thing that sets the busses apart is the reflective striping around the exits. And, of course, there are no exits on the front...
There are so many vehicles with various warning lights now that we (the driving public) are in near overload. Motorcycles now have flashing headlights. I understand their plight, but it used to be if you saw flashing headlights, it meant emergency vehicle.
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