How is the pay for engineers determined?
Are they paid by the hour? The mile? By trips from Point A to Point B? How does an engineer get a raise? Are engineers at the end of their careers paid the same, or nearly so, as those who are new and/or younger engineers? Are "good" engineers paid more than "bad" engineers? Are engineers observed and given performance reviews?
How about days off? Do they get a certain number of sick days or personal days?
How much difference does a union railroad make? Are CSX or UP engineers paid considerably more than non-union short-line engineers?
What's the story on overtime?
Anybody have a couple of hours to answer this?
rrnut282 Anybody have a couple of hours to answer this?
LOL Point taken!
Simple. Yes.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
NKP guy How is the pay for engineers determined? Are they paid by the hour? The mile? By trips from Point A to Point B? How does an engineer get a raise? Are engineers at the end of their careers paid the same, or nearly so, as those who are new and/or younger engineers? Are "good" engineers paid more than "bad" engineers? Are engineers observed and given performance reviews? How about days off? Do they get a certain number of sick days or personal days? How much difference does a union railroad make? Are CSX or UP engineers paid considerably more than non-union short-line engineers? What's the story on overtime?
Good luck with all that!!
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
This does not answer all of the questions posed, but it gives a general idea of the wages of locomotive engineers in the U.S.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
Pay by the mile or the hour depends on where (railroad and/or assignment) you are working. For some class ones, regionals and most non-union railroads pay is figured by the hour for all jobs. For example, on CN and CP (US lines) they have gone to an hourly payrate (around $45 +/- hr, overtime after 10hrs) in exchange for eliminating most work rule restrictions. Other railroads still pay on a miliage basis for through and most local freights. Switch engines pay by the hour. Some that pay by the mile have gone to a trip rate. Which is a set rate of miles for a particular run. When setting up the rates, they figured in (by averaging over a checking period) certain arbitrary payments like terminal delay, etc.
Unionized engineers get a raise when the contract calls for it. Non-unionized engineers get one when the company feels like it. All things being equal (and I realize they usually aren't) the amount of money you can make at a particular point in a career depends on the assignments you can work. Unionized ones will have a seniority system. Others may or may not. Seniority means, for those that have it, you work jobs that pay a lot, or maybe don't pay so much but have time off. Yard jobs pay the least but have days off. Road jobs pay more but you might be away from home every other night. For those that don't have much seniority, you get what no one older (in seniority) than you wants. Although that doesn't always mean the least desirable jobs pay the least. Sometimes there are other considerations why a higher paying assigments goes to low seniority.
You better believe engineers are observed and reviewed. For example anytime a knuckle or drawbar breaks, the engine's event recorder gets downloaded to see if human error is the fault. Newer engines now can be downloaded in real time. And coming to an engine near you, inward facing cameras. So far, the inward facing cameras have to be reviewed and don't record in-cab conversations. Most are capable of real time monitoring and voice recording.
Days off depeneds on assignment. Where I work, through freight and extra board assignments don't have rest days. (Other than working too much in a 6 or 7 day period and having to take a Federal mandatory 48 or 72 hour rest period.) I've heard on other railroads, they are starting to have regular rest days on extra and/or through freight assignments. Yard and local freights have assigned rest days. Engineers in through freight and extra board assignments get paid personal leave days instead of paid holidays. It is also is possible to take uncompensated time off, but they also have an attendence policy (that is complicated to figure out) that can lead to discipline if you take too much time off that way.
A class one engineer is going to make (or have the opprotunity to make) much more than most short line engineers. Unionized short line and regionals will usually pay better than most non-union short lines. Iowa Interstate had openings for student conductors at three locations recently. They started at $20 per hour, with full rate around $25 hr. I've seen them advertise in the past for engineers and they were paid about the same.
Overtime where hourly is usually set at 8 or 10 hours. Depends on the contract. Many that have gone to all hourly set a basic day at 10 hours. Others still have a basic day as 8 hours or 130 miles. With miliage, unless there is language to the contrary, runs of 130 miles or less begin overtime after 8 hours. Runs over 130 miles begin overtime when the time on duty exceeds the number of miles ran divided by 16.25. My current assignment can have a run of 161 or 144 miles. The 144 mile run begins overtime after 8 hours 52 minutes. The 161 mile run begins OT after 9 hours and 55 minutes. The East pool out of my home terminal (197 miles) begins OT after 12 hours and 7 minutes. On that run you have to die on the HOS to get overtime. Some places where they have extended runs by running through former division points, they have agreed to start overtime after a certain period of time, say 10 hours. Otherwise by the miliage formula you would almost never be able to go on overtime.
All of the above is just an overview. You start talking specifics and it really does get complicated.
Jeff
Off topic but the thing that really turned me off on a career in Railroading way back when I was a teenager deciding on direction in life. Was how similiar it was to being in the military, the caps on pay, and the adversarial relationship between management and employee..........and most of all the frequent job layoffs at the time (late 1970's) and the general instability of employment.
No thanks.....not for me.
Sincere thanks to jeffhergert and JPS1 for their informative answers to my questions.
I'm mildly surprised to find that top pay is not quite as high as I imagined it to be, considering all the responsibilities engineers have, to say nothing of all the rules they have to learn.
The schedule must be difficult to adjust to, what with all those hours, days and nights, days off, etc., so it's good to learn some railroads are trying other ways of scheduling work times.
I've never understood the way some companies, such as steel mills, scheduled workers for rotating shifts: one week day turn, next week afternoon turn, next week nights, and the following week's day turn was preceeded by the last night turn; in other words, once a month you had to work a 16 hour day! What on earth could be the purpose of such scheduling except the "misery loves company" theory? And why would unions agree to such man-killing (and family life-killing) scheduling?
You men who work under these conditions have my respect, and your families have my sympathy.
I drew back from railroading because of the crazy hours and because I had heard that railroaders belittled those in their ranks who were railfans. Railroading seems not to have suffered because of my decision.
If my only choice would be road assignments, I doubt I'd still be on the railroad.
I quickly found myself a little industrial/local yard, and that's where I mostly worked (barring a few months last year when a new crew assignment system went into place and I was forced away a bit). Mostly M-F work, but also mostly night work. To be honest, I don't mind nights. While I occasionally can hold daylight assignments, night seems to be where I end up most of the time. But I've been outside and seen enough sunrises and sunsets that some would be jealous of.
That's the beauty (benefit?) of railroad work. You aren't stuck in one place forever if you don't want it. Now as an engineer - my seniority is next to bottom here, but even the worst engineer job is better than pounding the ground. (not that I hated ground work, I just did it enough for my tastes. Plus I like that right-hand seat).
The job is what you make of it. Some guys do nothing but female dog& moan 24/7. Give them a $100 bill and they'd complain that it was wrinkled. I try to not take stuff too seriously (surprised.. aren't you?) and have a little fun. Granted, my railfanning anymore consists of mostly this site anymore (lucky you. Sorry). I have other hobbies that took over. For example, I do have my tickets to Otakon in Washington DC in a month or so.
Does the job pay ok? It does for me and my modest lifestyle. Is it the place to go if you want to be rich? Nah. Do I want to do this another 30 years? I really don't want to, to be honest. But could I? Probably. If there's still engineers in 30 years, that is. Who knows.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Speaking of working, I recommend a new book out. Author is Finn Murphy. Title is "LONG HAUL A truckers tales of life on the road"
It is an easy read of a man who quit collage and became a moving van driver. He says they are called bedbugs. While it is not a railroad story, it is a different life than a factory worker’s or many others. Perhaps Shadow can give us her thoughts about it.
Another question for Jeff. Is there any base pay for Engineers that they are guaranteed. If a territory has too many engineers for the current number of trains operated, the period between calls could be long and thus the income low. Boom time when more trains need to be crewed and not enough engineers available means high income but burn out. So I guess the question is how do railroads adjust the rosters? And how variable is the income?
Electroliner 1935Another question for Jeff. Is there any base pay for Engineers that they are guaranteed.
Zug is not Jeff, but our extra lists are guaranteed. They also get 2 rest days per 6 day cycle. But if they start paying too much out in guarantee, they cut the list (means reducing the number of people on that list). If they need more engineers - they add to it. Our jobs are awarded weekly, so they can adjust it pretty frequently if they want.
Electroliner 1935 Speaking of working, I recommend a new book out. Author is Finn Murphy. Title is "LONG HAUL A truckers tales of life on the road" It is an easy read of a man who quit collage and became a moving van driver. He says they are called bedbugs. While it is not a railroad story, it is a different life than a factory worker’s or many others. Perhaps Shadow can give us her thoughts about it. Another question for Jeff. Is there any base pay for Engineers that they are guaranteed. If a territory has too many engineers for the current number of trains operated, the period between calls could be long and thus the income low. Boom time when more trains need to be crewed and not enough engineers available means high income but burn out. So I guess the question is how do railroads adjust the rosters? And how variable is the income?
Like Zug, our extra boards are the only engineer boards that have a guarantee. Ours however, don't have days off. (We did once for a trial period, but the company pulled out of it.)
Traditionally the boards, both pool and extra, were governed by how many miles each turn was making. While the miliage range might vary slightly (I have a few old agreement books from different railroads) most were in the range of a low of 3200 miles to a high of 3800 miles a month for freight. If the average miliage dropped below 3200, turns would be cut. If miliage was over 3800, turns were to be added. They used to require that once a person made the maximum miliage that they were to be marked off for the rest of the month. (Kind of like the current cap in hours.)
Some places now are using how many "starts" (going on duty for a job) in a set period of time. With the guaranteed boards, the company regulates the boards. The union local chairman is supposed to regulate the non-guaranteed boards, but the company can add/delete turns, too. The company seems to like keeping the non guaranteed boards flush. Now, if miliage figures at all (although the agreement is still in force) the company just uses the minimum figure to say we are making our miles so they don't need to cut the board. That way they can trim back the guaranteed boards and use the pool boards as an "extra" extra board.
I'm not a driver here so I had to ask my drivers what they actually thought of that question along with my husband. My husband a huge introvert flat out said he would do it again in a heartbeat so I wouldn't have to work as hard as I do. What can I say even as sick as he is that man is still balls to the wall about getting crap done and doing it right the first time must have come from his father his mom is nothing like that.
My drivers out of the 40 that responded to the fleet wide question I asked which was would you do this again if you could based on current regulations we are enduring 30 said Yes 5 said Hell No and the last 5 said just marking time til I retire. Those 30 that answered like they did are the top runners in our company and we ask it is done without having to hound them. The 5 that said no well we to make sure they get the loads done in a decent timeframe we put them on a dedicated run back and forth between the yard and a smaller town in Upstate NY that is drop and hook on both sides however they make decent money on their 3300 miles a week. The last 5 are what my hubby would be now Old timer drivers yeah if my husband was still out there he would have 24 years now and are just marking time until they can punch the clock and retire. They are all putting their last kids thru college one has one in Med school and another has 1 that even though dad doesn't what her to she is going to follow dad into the industry.
The oldtimers and those that love it call it a lifestyle and like being a railroader it is your all over the place all the time sleeping in different cities and states from time to time dealing with delays customers and yes Idiots in the office while being left alone to get on down the line or road. Those that love it wouldn't do anything else those that are in it for a job see the money and go it is worth the BS those that hate it wash out and the same thing happens in the Railroad enviroment also. I hear the same complaints all the time from a neighbor of mine that is a track maintance worker for the BNSF in my area. He goes the money is the only thing that makes the job worth it.
NKP guy I've never understood the way some companies, such as steel mills, scheduled workers for rotating shifts: one week day turn, next week afternoon turn, next week nights, and the following week's day turn was preceeded by the last night turn; in other words, once a month you had to work a 16 hour day! What on earth could be the purpose of such scheduling except the "misery loves company" theory? And why would unions agree to such man-killing (and family life-killing) scheduling?
Back in our college days, my brother had a steel mill job that had him working a swing shift: 7 days on Midnight-8:00, 4 days off, 7 days on 4:00-Midnight, 2 days off, 7 days on 8:00-4:00, 1 day off and back to the beginning. Note that this guarantees one day of overtime on each cycle. Also note that there isn't a guaranteed 16-hour day in this cycle. It wasn't easy but it was predictable and it was equitable, first-level supervisory also worked a swing shift.
CSSHEGEWISCH NKP guy I've never understood the way some companies, such as steel mills, scheduled workers for rotating shifts: one week day turn, next week afternoon turn, next week nights, and the following week's day turn was preceeded by the last night turn; in other words, once a month you had to work a 16 hour day! What on earth could be the purpose of such scheduling except the "misery loves company" theory? And why would unions agree to such man-killing (and family life-killing) scheduling? Back in our college days, my brother had a steel mill job that had him working a swing shift: 7 days on Midnight-8:00, 4 days off, 7 days on 4:00-Midnight, 2 days off, 7 days on 8:00-4:00, 1 day off and back to the beginning. Note that this guarantees one day of overtime on each cycle. Also note that there isn't a guaranteed 16-hour day in this cycle. It wasn't easy but it was predictable and it was equitable, first-level supervisory also worked a swing shift.
Sounds like another of those "We do it this way because we're different and this is the way we've always done it."
schlimm CSSHEGEWISCH NKP guy I've never understood the way some companies, such as steel mills, scheduled workers for rotating shifts: one week day turn, next week afternoon turn, next week nights, and the following week's day turn was preceeded by the last night turn; in other words, once a month you had to work a 16 hour day! What on earth could be the purpose of such scheduling except the "misery loves company" theory? And why would unions agree to such man-killing (and family life-killing) scheduling? Back in our college days, my brother had a steel mill job that had him working a swing shift: 7 days on Midnight-8:00, 4 days off, 7 days on 4:00-Midnight, 2 days off, 7 days on 8:00-4:00, 1 day off and back to the beginning. Note that this guarantees one day of overtime on each cycle. Also note that there isn't a guaranteed 16-hour day in this cycle. It wasn't easy but it was predictable and it was equitable, first-level supervisory also worked a swing shift. Sounds like another of those "We do it this way because we're different and this is the way we've always done it."
Not really! Work schedules evolve because of what companies and employees feel work best for them - for whatever reasons each of the parties feel are best for their own self interest.
One place I worked there was a Yardmaster's relief job (working regular jobs rest days) that workd 3rd Trick Mon-Tue; 2nd Trick Wed-Thu; 1st Trick Friday - thus giving the incumbent off from 3PM Friday to 11 PM on Monday. Job was held by the Senior man on the roster - It gave him a 'long' weekend, every weekend.
Every employee and every company have their own beliefs as to what works best for them.
The 'Local Agreement' for one territory I worked was written so that T&E employees were only REQUIRED to be sent to their home terminal after having been away from home 14 days. That agreement was subsequently changed, but it leaves me wondering what the local T&E Union leaders were thinking when the negotiated/agreed to such a contract provision.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD The 'Local Agreement' for one territory I worked was written so that T&E employees were only REQUIRED to be sent to their home terminal after having been away from home 14 days. That agreement was subsequently changed, but it leaves me wondering what the local T&E Union leaders were thinking when the negotiated/agreed to such a contract provision.
Possibly it was negotiated with the thought (by the union leaders) that it would only apply to those forced to outlying jobs. Work train service for example. However, the wording allowed the company to interpret it to include ALL T&E people.
Our agreements allow us when going on duty at the AFHT to be turned back once and tied up there. We automatically place first out (but not rested) on the board. The next time on duty we have to be tied up back at our home terminal. In practice, we rarely tie back up a second time away from home anymore. If we have a bad day and need to be relieved on HOS, even if we're closer to the AFHT we usually get cabbed home.
BaltACD Not really! Work schedules evolve because of what companies and employees feel work best for them
At most of the lignite mine sites in east Texas the bargaining unit employees work 12 on and 12 off shifts for four days follow by four to five days off. It is what the employees negotiated.
Management was reluctant to agree to the arrangement because of safety concerns, but they proved to be unfounded. Accidents went down following implementation of the 12 on and 12 off scheduling.
JPS1 BaltACD Not really! Work schedules evolve because of what companies and employees feel work best for them At most of the lignite mine sites in east Texas the bargaining unit employees work 12 on and 12 off shifts for four days follow by four to five days off. It is what the employees negotiated. Management was reluctant to agree to the arrangement because of safety concerns, but they proved to be unfounded. Accidents went down following implementation of the 12 on and 12 off scheduling.
Nurses at the nearby hospital have moved to a similar schedule, they like it!
jeffhergert BaltACD The 'Local Agreement' for one territory I worked was written so that T&E employees were only REQUIRED to be sent to their home terminal after having been away from home 14 days. That agreement was subsequently changed, but it leaves me wondering what the local T&E Union leaders were thinking when the negotiated/agreed to such a contract provision. Possibly it was negotiated with the thought (by the union leaders) that it would only apply to those forced to outlying jobs. Work train service for example. However, the wording allowed the company to interpret it to include ALL T&E people. Our agreements allow us when going on duty at the AFHT to be turned back once and tied up there. We automatically place first out (but not rested) on the board. The next time on duty we have to be tied up back at our home terminal. In practice, we rarely tie back up a second time away from home anymore. If we have a bad day and need to be relieved on HOS, even if we're closer to the AFHT we usually get cabbed home. Jeff
The agreement was effective on the Georgia Railrod Banking & Trust property that CSX inherited and operates as their Georgia Subdivision. Work on the sub consists of through runs between Augusta and Atlanta, GA. There is a active stone qurry at Lithonia, GA and coal trains destined to Plant Harrlee outside of Milledgeville, GA. While this agreement was in effect Georgia Sub crews would operate the "New Gorgia Railroad" dinner trains form 'Underground Atlanta' to Stone Mountain and return. The crew's Home Terminal is Augusta.There were Assigned Crews that worked a 'Mainline' local between Augusta & Atlanta; picking up and setting off cars for the outlying locals between the two point. There a couple of Pool Crews that worked Intermodal assignments between the two point. All these crews worked up one trip and back home the next.The Extra Crews, however, were the ones trapped by the 14 day clause. If, say, empty hoppers were operated from Augusta to Atlanta it would take an Extra Crew. Upon rest in Atlanta, they might get called for 'The Dinner Train'; the Lithonia Ballast turn or a Harrlee Coal train. Upon completing the assignment of the Dinner train or the Lithonia Ballast turn the crews would take rest again in Atlanta. If they caught a Harrlee Coal train they would take rest in Milledgeville; nine times in ten the empties from Plant Harrlee would go back to Atlanta rather than Augusta. There would occasionally be extra trains that would operate from Atlanta back to Augusta and obviously if a crew caught one of these they would go home, if not they would get 'trapped' at Atlanta working any combination of the Dinner Train, Lithonia Ballast or Harrlee Coal trains until 14 days entered the picture.I can only surmise that the 'old heads' that negotiated this agreement felt they had such a bad home life that the more time spent on the road the better. Subsequently a Four Trip agreement was negotiated. With the Fourth Trip the crew either had go to Augusta or the crew would be deadheaded to Augusta from wherever the fourth trip tied up (Atlanta or Milledgeville).
BuslistNurses at the nearby hospital have moved to a similar schedule, they like it!
Our state police, and I think our sheriff's department work a similar schedule. Some fire departments have gone to 48 on - 72 off schedules, or similar non-typical formats. That's OK for a department that's not too busy, but could be a problem if they're out the door 10-12 times a day or more.
In the early 1970's I worked in a UK power station where the operations department worked the following shifts: 7 hour days (starting at 0700 hours), 8 hour afternoons and 9 hour graveyards.There were also a number of days during which you could be called in to work as a relief on any of the regular shifts, but if not required as a relief you worked an 8 hour morning shift.
I was told that the reason for these shift times was that when the station went into operation in the mid 1960's, the original workers wanted to ensure that those working on the afternoon shift could get to the pub after work before closing time.
seafarer I was told that the reason for these shift times was that when the station went into operation in the mid 1960's, the original workers wanted to ensure that those working on the afternoon shift could get to the pub after work before closing time.
Smart men, gotta keep those priorities straight!
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
This is a typical schedule for a 24/7 operation. Four shifts, three working and one off. Rotating schedules are tough; I worked one for several months right out of college. Some of the long time employees worked them for 35 years. Once a month, I had a "5 day weekend" (off at 8 AM Wednesday, back at 3 PM Monday). It took at least two days to recover, so the weekend was never 5 days.
Any business that can't shut down on Friday night (steel mills, chemical plants & refineries, generating stations, etc.) operates with rotating shifts, it's a fact of life and has nothing to do with cruel management. These jobs typically are among the highest paying in the area.
My own experiences with 12 hour shifts began with noon to midnight 3 days one week and 4 days the next--and it was not bad. With different responsibilities, I worked fromseven in the morning to seven in the evening, again 3 day one week and 4 days the next. what I did not like was working from seven in the evening to seven the next morning.
Johnny
sandyhookkenAny business that can't shut down on Friday night (steel mills, chemical plants & refineries, generating stations, etc.) operates with rotating shifts, it's a fact of life and has nothing to do with cruel management. These jobs typically are among the highest paying in the area.
I just can't wrap my ahead around the idea that it makes sense to rotate shifts. Why not simply have 3 shifts? Maybe every six months or a year the workers could be rotated onto a different shift, but until then, it's every day at the same time. That being said, even I have to admit that covering weekends might take some imagination or flexibility.
Only single men find rotating shifts easy. Proof? Ask ANY wife or daughter or son what they think of dad never knowing if he can "be there" for anything, since he never knows what shift he'll be working.
NKP guy sandyhookken Any business that can't shut down on Friday night (steel mills, chemical plants & refineries, generating stations, etc.) operates with rotating shifts, it's a fact of life and has nothing to do with cruel management. These jobs typically are among the highest paying in the area. I just can't wrap my ahead around the idea that it makes sense to rotate shifts. Why not simply have 3 shifts? Maybe every six months or a year the workers could be rotated onto a different shift, but until then, it's every day at the same time. That being said, even I have to admit that covering weekends might take some imagination or flexibility. Only single men find rotating shifts easy. Proof? Ask ANY wife or daughter or son what they think of dad never knowing if he can "be there" for anything, since he never knows what shift he'll be working.
sandyhookken Any business that can't shut down on Friday night (steel mills, chemical plants & refineries, generating stations, etc.) operates with rotating shifts, it's a fact of life and has nothing to do with cruel management. These jobs typically are among the highest paying in the area.
Rotating shifts are easy!....Be subject to 24 hour call like most railroad T&E personel that hold Pool or Extra Board assignments or Operating Management that has to respond whenever there is a 'incident' that involves one of their employees.
When I last did shift work, it was a six week thing.
As noted, the weekends were tough - we only needed two people then, but six or seven on the weekdays. Trying to "share the wealth" was hard.
I interviewed for a customs broker job once that rotated weekly. That had to be a pain. I think it was a security thing, though - couldn't have the same people on the same shift week after week 'cause they might make arrangements to do something nefarious with the truckers.
An uncle who was a sheriff's deputy rotated monthly, and when they rotated, their days off also moved forward one day.
On the other hand, I had another uncle who always worked the mid shift at a paper mill. Any visits to their house included a very sleepy-eyed fellow.
At least most places that change shifts do so in a forward manner. Research has apparently shown that going backwards (days to mids, eves to days, mids to eves) is bad all around.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.