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High-speed rail, red herring, and my lament

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High-speed rail, red herring, and my lament
Posted by gabe on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 9:12 AM
During my ride home from Mark’s symposium, I debated what symposium topic would be the best for the forum to discuss and dissect. This is it:

There was a relatively young (my guess is 24-27) guy at the symposium who was very energetic, enthusiastic, and genuinely interested in trains. I found his energy and enthusiasm very encouraging, as I think youthful enthusiasm is invaluable to any industry. His passion for trains reminded me of mine before my ideas about the potential for short lines ran into the quagmire of the 286,000 lbs. car, the prohibitive cost of investment, and the lack of enthusiasm of Class 1s.

However, my encouragement went slightly sour. His passion seemed entirely devoted to the concept of high-speed rail. Don't get me wrong; I am not trying to sound high handed. As far as I know, he has a great idea, and I certainly hope he is able to make millions on it as well as transform the face of American transportation.

My problem is, it seems to me that high-speed rail is a red herring that is sucking the lifeblood out of railroading. He is not alone, the general public seems to view high-speed rail with an enthusiasm that I think distracts it from goals that are achievable.

I think this is a problem because this spent enthusiasm is setting such lofty goals that society is unlikely to ever begin on the journey to achieve them and society is being distracted from undertaking rail projects that are within its economic and political reach = fix Amtrak? How droll. Let's instead direct our energy toward the exciting and romantic topic of high-speed rail.

I wish I could see someone direct their enthusiastic energy toward an idea like this:

High-speed rail will cost X billions of dollars to build and will likely generate X amount of riders per year and require the taxpayer to dole out X dollars every year in order to sustain it. However, we can fix the passenger service we have for 1/20th the cost of implementing high-speed rail, improve ridership (admittedly, not to the extent of high-speed rail), and this approach would require less tax money to sustain it.

Will a train that travels 145 mph generate that much more riders than a train that travels 79 mph? I don't think so. Fixing the passenger rail system we have would generate more bang for the buck when increased ridership is compared to the amount of money necessary to implement and sustain high-speed rail.

My lament is not that I think high-speed rail is a stupid or quixotic; I think the cost of implementing high-speed rail in today's political and economic climate makes it a non-starter and distracts people with enthusiasm from achievable rail goals.

How happy I would be if the young and enthusiastic could say: I have an idea that can take 8% of trucks off the highway and onto the rails and improve rail efficiency by 5%. That is not as romantic as a high-speed rail program; but, I think such unromantic ideals are the real and achievable future of railroading. I wish we could direct youthful enthusiasm and the public to more achievable goals.

Gabe
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Posted by dldance on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 9:42 AM
Gabe - you might want to look at Texas Gov. Rick Perry's transportation initiative. This is a 50 year plan for the state of Texas that envisions a 4,000 mile network of transportation corridors across the state. Each corridor includes highway (toll roads), rail, and utilities. Each will be built and maintained by a public/private joint venture.

The first one to be looked at is the I35 corridor from the Mexican border, through San Antonio, Austin, Dallas/Ft. Worth to the Oklahoma border. This stretch of I35 is already 6 lane highway in many areas and is close to capacity - with about 50,000 - 60,000 vehicles per day. There is a real need to lower the NAFTA trucking congestion - thus the rail component.

Finally, Texas has a lot of wind power, but limited electrical transmission capability. It is also a unique state in that it's power grid is almost enitrely within the state -- thus the utilities portion of the plan. Of course Texas already has a lot of oil and gas pipelines, but long distance water pipelines will be needed - especially in San Antonio.

dd
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Posted by jeaton on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 10:22 AM
Gabe

I happen to agree with you 100%.

Most of the regional rail systems under consderation are hub and spoke systems with the spokes generally not more than 300 miles long. At distances of 300 miles or less, airline service is not particularily attractive to the traveler and not very profitable for the airlines. That leaves the mode of choice as the automobile.

As you know from your experience traveling between Indianapolis and Chicago, and as I have have found in my driving experience, it can be very difficult to average more than 50 miles per hour for automobile travel between the major points on the proposed systems. If this rail service is hoping to get most of their business from drivers, is it really going to be necessary to offer a service that cuts travel time in half?

They may be out there, but I have never seen a cost/benefit study that compared "high speed" service providing average speeds of say 100 mph with a service that would have average speeds of 65 MPH. My guess is that the lower speed system could be developed for about half the cost of high speed.

There is no doubt in my mind that the price tag of billions of dollars blew the Florida proposal out of the water. The consequence is that Florida is either going to have to live with traffic congestion on main intercity routes, or spend billions on additional highway lanes. Maybe a medium speed rail system plus some additional highway construction has a much lower overall cost.

It seem that the public likes the idea of the glamorous system, but is not willing to put up the money to buy the system. Why not focus on solving the problem?

Jay

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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 10:39 AM
These kind of studies have been done and result vary according to route (surprise! surprise!)

Here's one study http://www.garail.com/Pages/pdf/2004jaxreport.pdf

It shows that 79 mph service on this route would cost about 3/4 that for 110 mph and bring in 85% of the riders and about 70% of the revenue.

This one http://www.garail.com/Pages/pdf/sehsrexecutivesummary.pdf

shows that 79 would cost 1/4 of 110 mph service, bring in 85% of the riders and 80% of the revenues.

The difference is that the first route very straight and flat while the latter is chocked full of 3 degree curves. Even with "tilt" trains, the existing route would only be good for 90 mph. 110 would require lots of realignment.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by gabe on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 10:48 AM
Don,

To add to your statistics, most people scoff at anything under 140 mph. Imagine how much more such a system would cost. There comes a point where you have to completely rework the track.

Gabe
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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 11:06 AM
I suspect that high-speed rail is going to have to be built along the same methods as the original rail system was - numerous small systems that were eventually tied together. Building a NY-Chicago system would be a very daunting task. Filling the needs of local travel first (as has been discussed), then tying the systems together would have the eventual result of a larger, seamless system. Of course, that means that the terminus for the Chicago-Indianapolis line will have to be the same as the Indianapolis-Cincinatti line, even though they may be built years apart. Same for the Cincinatti-Pittsburg line, etc. (Those are examples, not anything I know of that is planned.) There are also considerations of types of equipment to be used, etc.

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Posted by jchnhtfd on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 12:03 PM
Gabe -- I am in total agreement with you. But it is very hard to get people -- never mind masses of people, never mind the media and (finally) the politicos to get behind really practical high return projects; it's always the spectacle and the sex that sells. I can think of hundreds of examples... so it remains for the dedicated, not particularly glorious practical types to proceed, as best they can. Freight railroading earns a positive rate of return on investment, so private enterprise can manage it. Passenger railroading never has, so... oh well, we've been there before!
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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 12:17 PM
An interesting comparison can be made in commercial aviation. The various proposals for SST's and the earliest widebody designs turned up in the 1960's. Most of the media attention and glamor (and developmental grants) went to the SST designs while the widebodies grew quietly out of military freighter concepts such as the C-5. Most of the SST concepts went by the wayside except for the Concorde and Tu-144, which were actually built but were never profitable. The widebodies were actually built to a wide variety of designs and many airlines have some on their roster.
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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 12:23 PM
Virtually no railroads were constructed with the idea that their primary purpose was to move people. Most of the the time the justification came from being able to move goods and people. The earliest RRs in the US were built to move goods. Passengers were a bit of an after thought. For example, the Reading RR was built to haul antracite from Reading to Philadelphia.

If we are going to rebuild exisiting or build new routes for high speed, it would be a shame if the transportation of freight wasn't included as part of the plan.

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Posted by techguy57 on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 4:15 PM
Gabe- At the risk of sounding preachy, simply put it is indicative of the direction society in general has been going. We want things to be faster, better, more grand. In short we want more out of everything, regardless if it cost us more or less (although less is preferred) so long as its faster. The internet is a prime example. I can view the Trains website regardless of whether I'm using AOL or Netscape,etc but I may be paying differently for for speed, quality, and other benefits. High-speed rail is similar. People are paying to get to their destination faster than they can (legally) drive there and they can avoid the airports and airport delays. Heck, when O'Hare is averaging a delay in 30% of ALL flights in and out it's not hard to understand why people think its the next great solution. Plus how often do you hear of people who have fears of riding on trains.[;)]

Personally, I'm hoping we try developing matter transfer like on Star Trek before we worry about implementing high-speed rail, but I don't think it'll happen. It would be much better and quicker to to beam home when I'm tired of being around the in-laws . [:D]

Mike
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Posted by overall on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 8:35 PM
His passion for trains reminded me of mine before my ideas about the potential for short lines ran into the quagmire of the 286,000 lbs. car, the prohibitive cost of investment, and the lack of enthusiasm of Class 1s.

Gabe,

This may be a little off topic, but a law has been enacted to address the problem of the 286,000 lb cars. It provides tax credits for short lines investing in the heavier rail. I read about it in the latest Railway Age.

George
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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 9:03 PM
I am in agreement with the 50 MPH average speed in a car. I find that I average about 50 MPH on American interstates, and I think I was averaging about 50 MPH in a rental car on the German and Austrian Autobahns -- their peak speeds are much higher but the car I rented couldn't keep up with the Bimmers in the fast lane, and there are the road construction speed zones, mountain pass toll plazas, stopping for meals and gas.

But come to think of it, does the Acela do NY-DC in a bit under 3 hours? That puts them in the 70-75 MPH range -- so much for the 150 MPH capability. Does the Acela do any better than the Pennsy Congressional with a GG-1 pulling Budd stainless steel cars back in the 1950's. Perhaps someone can weigh in on Acela schedules (and the schedules of non-Acela -- in Philly I saw an AEM-7 pulling a string of Amfleet cars that seemed to go on forever, so Amtrak must have non-Acela service on the NEC).

And then for NY-DC, if 70 MPH average gets you there in 3 hours, 50 MPH gets you there by car in 4 hours and change. Provided you don't get in traffic jams and don't make 50 MPH average, the car may get you there quicker because you have to buy a train ticket, be there ahead of time, stand in line to board, and so on. As far as flying NY-DC, given the amount of time you have to be there ahead of time on the plane, I would be inclined to drive instead of fly as well.

Now the non-high speed train limit is 79 MPH, but you are not going to average 79 MPH either. I think ways of speeding up trains by streamlining the slow-speed parts of the trip, however, merit looking into. Trains had this thing about how the California trains beat the Amtrak trains on the same line because the California trains are run like commuter trains with 2 minute stops with passengers wrestling with their own bags instead of Amtrak with their longer stops and baggage service.

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 9:55 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by techguy57

Gabe- At the risk of sounding preachy, simply put it is indicative of the direction society in general has been going. We want things to be faster, better, more grand. In short we want more out of everything, regardless if it cost us more or less (although less is preferred) so long as its faster. The internet is a prime example. I can view the Trains website regardless of whether I'm using AOL or Netscape,etc but I may be paying differently for for speed, quality, and other benefits. High-speed rail is similar. People are paying to get to their destination faster than they can (legally) drive there and they can avoid the airports and airport delays. Heck, when O'Hare is averaging a delay in 30% of ALL flights in and out it's not hard to understand why people think its the next great solution. Plus how often do you hear of people who have fears of riding on trains.[;)]

Personally, I'm hoping we try developing matter transfer like on Star Trek before we worry about implementing high-speed rail, but I don't think it'll happen. It would be much better and quicker to to beam home when I'm tired of being around the in-laws . [:D]

Mike


FOFLMAO. Mike you are a master at applied technology. Escaping the In Laws has been the goal of all married men since H.G. Wells wrote "The Time Machine"...

LC
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Posted by RudyRockvilleMD on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 10:31 PM
Paul:
The Acela Expresses are significantly faster than the Congressional with Budd built stainless steel cars, and hauled by a GG 1. infact the Northeast corridor also has regional trains - which while slower than the Acela Expresses - are faster than the Congressiona.

The Acela Express averages~ 80 mph between New York and Washington, but 66mph between New york and Boston, and i don't consider either average speed typical of high speed passenger rail.

Driving between New york and Washington is a real bear what with tolls and traffic. I doubt if you could evenaverage 50 mph except late at night when there are few cars on the road.

For Gabe:
As I understand it, high speed passenger railis not and was not really intended to compete with the car, it was more or less intended as an alternative to air transportation. Yes, high speed passenger rail is expensive, but how much more expensive than air transportation i don't know. Most of Amtrak's ridership is in the Northeast corridor where the Acela Expresses run. I don't know how politically possible it might be to upgrade the present day passenger train.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 11:52 PM
My biggest problem with HSR is that most advocates seem to want TGV style, and want it now. There is no practicality here. Meanwhile, do we even need true HSR? Talgo has proven itself both competitive and effective, and California is running very capable systems using conventional equipment. Isn't service satisfaction a better measure than an arbitrary speed number?
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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 5:07 AM
I agree with Gabe. Even more remote than HSR is Maglev, a real waste of money in my opinion, even with the China success. At least HSR sticks with standard gauge tracks that can be used by intermodal freight at night, etc. The main task right now, as I see it, is to somehow come up with the tax money to:

Put Amtrak in decent shape, with good catenary throughout the corridor and cars repaired and in good condition and crews feeling that they have a future and people care about them, and decent passenger amtenites from the phone call to the attentand handing you the luggage as you debark.

Seemless travel with information and ticketing Greyhound-Anmtrak-commuter lines

Restore the links necessary for good connections where passenger demand warrents, such as Salt Lake City - Las Vegas - LA. Give Cleveland decent service not just in the middle of the night. Buffalo - Detroit - Chicago, Toronto- Chicago, possibly via Detroit, etc. Of course, Chicago - Atlanta - Florida.

Boston North Station - South Station

Help the short lines cope with the heavier cars to strengthen the overall rail network

The Chicago project

That is the short list

The long list would be to upgrade Washington - Richmond and Boston - Portland or even Boston - Bangor to become part of the NE Corridor in every way.

Upgrading Chicago - St. Louis - KC to high speed, incrementally

Cleveland - Columbus - Dayton -Cincinnati. and Detroit - Toledo - Dayton Cincinnati, ditto

Detroit - Chicago (project partly in place)

and similar corridors, already discussed
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 6:48 AM
Obviously none of you have ridden a true TGV HSR train..... If you had, you would want nothing less in America.....Nothing less.....

And as far as cost is concerned, its less per mile than any light rail system being built anywhere in America.....mostly because the bulk of the right of way is rural rather than urban.....

If the Feds can spend up to $7 billion per year on intra city transit to build a couple of hundred miles of light rail, the Feds can spend as much on inter city HSR.... In my opinion the Europeans are on the right track, while we are on the wrong track......
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Posted by gabe on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 8:05 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark

Obviously none of you have ridden a true TGV HSR train..... If you had, you would want nothing less in America.....Nothing less.....

And as far as cost is concerned, its less per mile than any light rail system being built anywhere in America.....mostly because the bulk of the right of way is rural rather than urban.....

If the Feds can spend up to $7 billion per year on intra city transit to build a couple of hundred miles of light rail, the Feds can spend as much on inter city HSR.... In my opinion the Europeans are on the right track, while we are on the wrong track......


(1) I have traveled via TGV, among other high-speed rail alternatives. It was really cool; but, so are diamonds--I trust you see my inference.

(2) I didn't necessarily say high-speed rail is worthless. I am just asserting that (1) a re haul of Amtrak would deliver more bang for the buck and (2) despite your money claims, high-speed rail is a non-starter because tax payers awe over it until they see the price tag. I seem to remember something in Florida supporting my position?

(3) Finally, I am asserting that, because high-speed rail makes it a non-starter, I wish rail could generate enthusiasm that is seen over high-speed rail toward projects that are achievable. Romantic ideals are muscling out the practical ones.

Gabe
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Posted by TH&B on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 9:26 AM
Commuter rail is the way to go, and maybe that is what has started to happen. As more cities and urban areas have them, then maybe we can consider connecting some of them up with inter city trains or HSR.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 11:37 AM
Gabe-

There is so much to say about this topic. Let me simply say I agree with you basic premise. I suggest that you and others interested take a look at the down side of high speed rail as personified by the ongoing battle between Amtrak and the State of New York over proposed 110+ mph service between NYC and Albany using rebuilt turbo trains on existing track. Here is one article on the issues from todays BLE site news.

http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=12224

LC
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Posted by gabe on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 1:33 PM
Thank you,

Very interesting article.

Gabe
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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 1:37 PM
It wouldn't be the first time this happened. The day after the NYC did their jet propelled Budd car stunt in Ohio, they petitioned the ICC to drop all their long distance trains stating the future of passenger rail travel was high speed corridors.

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 5:40 PM
In all fairness to NYC and their jet-propelled RDC, I believe it was more serious than a stunt. I don't think they were ever serious about pulling the drive trains out of RDCs and sticking jet engines on the roof. From what I have read, the idea was to get a rail car going around 160 MPH by whatever means and collect some data as to what kind of forces it put on the track and whether truck hunting was a problem, and the jet engines were a "quick-and-dirty" solution to get the speed for the test.

Along similar lines, the US Department of Transportation procurred a 4 car set of Budd Silverliner MU cars, put tall gearing on the traction motors, and ran them past 150 MPH. That test, probably encouraged by the data from the jet-powered RDC, was the impetus for the DOT-sponsored Metroliner service, which was meant to be a demonstration of a potential revival of rail travel. There were to be three parts to the demonstration -- the NY-DC Metroliner using electric MU cars, the NY-Boston Turbo Train, using turbine power and passive banking on the non-completely electrified line, and a DC-Florida auto train service where passengers would ride inside their autos inside specially built auto carriers with passenger trucks. Only the first two parts of the demonstration were implemented. And as a demonstration, the Metroliner was not supposed to be the last word on the NEC, but it was meant to be a partnership between US-DOT and PRR to show what was possible.

What is interesting is the Budd Silverliner was tried-and-true technology from commuter service derived from the Budd Pioneer III -- this was a one-of coach car of conventional 85 foot length, Budd stainless steel construction, but it was ultra light weight (something like 65,000 lb) and it had exotic trucks (inside roller bearing, outside disk brake, something akin to the truck on a PCC street car). The Silverliners backed off on the ultra light weight but they had the inside roller bearing trucks (known as "Pioneer III" in the industry and used on commuter, rapid transit, and Amfleet cars).

I am not sure what the III in Pioneer III means -- I guess the "Pioneer I" would be the original Budd Zephyr train. Of all of the "lightweight experimentals" of the 1950's (Pennsy Keystone, Talgo, Aerotrain), Pioneer III was perhaps the less exotic and the only post-streamliner car building practice to go mainstream, although Talgo after all of these years is making a bit of a comeback.

Anyway, I digress. The actual Metroliner was a bit of a disaster, and if they had just stuck with the "hot-rodded" Silverliners, things may have worked out better. In addition to being up-geared, the Metroliners were up-powered -- I guess they figured they needed more acceleration to maintain schedules although the up-geared Silverliners could maintain whatever speed the operated on the NEC. Maybe it was "we need to keep up with the Japanese" in terms of how the Metroliner was speced, but the up-powering was a vicious cycle of adding power which added weight which required more power. My papa once told me (he worked for a consulting engineering firm that moved in those circles) that "the railroad" (i.e. the Pennsy) would have nothing to do with the Pioneer III trucks and speced a more conventional-style passenger truck, and I rode the Metroliner once, and the ride quality was a bit harsh.

Anyway, the whole concept of the NY-DC demonstration was if the commuter MU was the streetcar, the Metroliner was supposed to be the interurban, but the whole plan was messed up in execution and the Metroliner MUs were "carbarn queens" (planes are called "hanger queens" with such problems), and Amtrak ditched the Metroliner MUs almost as soon as they got good results with the AEM-7s.

How things have come full circle, I had read somewhere that Amtrak is of the opinion that the Pioneer III (Amfleet style) truck is hard on track, and for the Horizon cars, the speced a more conventional swing-hanger equalizer outside roller bearing truck in place of the Pioneer III truck used on the Comet commuter cars. I have not riden a Horizon car, but I rode a SEPTA Silverliner recently and liked it. Does anyone know the inside story on this?

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?

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Posted by RudyRockvilleMD on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 10:19 PM
The original Metroliner was problematic in at least two respects. I rode it on business between Washington and New York, and yes, the ride was harsh. I don't know if the harsh ride was due to the condition of the track, the suspension system, or a combination of both. According to what I heard subjective ride quality data from Japan was used to set the ride quality criteria. Apparently the data involved a younger age group in Japan who would be more tolerant of a harsher ride than older people.

The second problem was reliability. I rode one train set where the a/c didn't work. On another trip the engineer couldn't raise the pantographs just before the train was scheduled to leave Washingto. Fortunately a spare train set was just across the platform. On another trip the lights flickered every time the train crossed a switch (turnout).

This is 20/20 hindsight, but It seems to me the Metroliner train sets were not adequately evaluated.

As part of the Northeast Corridor demonstration project, in 1967, the Afternoon Congressional with its original Budd-built cars and hauled by a GG 1 was speeded up so that the Washington - New York trip only took 3 1/4 hours instead of 3 hours 35 minutes. Even then both my wife and I thought the ride was rough.

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Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, December 16, 2004 8:07 AM
I worked with a guy who worked at the Collinwood test lab when they did the Budd car stunt. Maybe "stunt" is a bit harsh, but that the NYC did no follow-on work and that it was timed to coincide with the train-off filings and that the last test run was called off by the top brass is pretty telling.

I've always thought of the original Metroliners as "The train that saved Amtrak". The whole project, which consisted of 60 some cars and some welded rail cost less than $100M at the time. They were rough riding and trouble prone, but they were modern, clean and damn fast! And, business travellers actually rode them in great numbers which gave Amtrak a "monied" constituency. Even President Nixon rode them, once! Without the Metroliners, Amtrak passenger trains might have just faded away.

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 16, 2004 8:51 AM
I disagree. While not up to TGV standards, Acela and the NEC is successfull and not hurting for riders, the rest of Amtrak is the problem and has been since 1971 despite different political parties being in power, numerous administrators, operating plans, studies, consultants, ad-nauseum. A half-baked version of Amtrak may serve to prevent development of HSR. Why build a HSR system and how do you cost-justify it when we already have passenger service? Also what private Investors would ever take the risk if the result has to compete against Amtrak?

IMO passenger trains have to go faster than cars(door to door). A fundamental problem with the current Amtrak operating model is how do you run reliably scheduled service on congested freight railroads which are unscheduled, have lots of single track, and where a single mishap delays everything by 4+ hours? How much speed differential can even the best freight railroads handle and how much would they be willing to invest for ROW improvements that aren't needed for their own trains?

Both the French and Japanese rail systems had serious problems that led to the development of HSR. Both of their HSR systems started small and grew gradually. The U.S. freight railroads seem to have bought into being the "low cost producer" rather than "adding value". To attract riders off airplanes and out of cars, passenger service has to be more than a second-class way to get from point A to point B, which is what Amtrak outside of a few corridors really amounts to. The U.S has historically not addressed problems until they reach crisis proportions. Kill Amtrak, dump the corridors on the States, and maybe something will happen. The wheel probably wouldn't have been invented if ancient man had to cost-justify it against the sledge.
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Posted by gabe on Thursday, December 16, 2004 9:09 AM
For the foreseeable future, I think you will sooner get the public--much less investors--to put their money in Winter-only Ice Cream shops in Nome Alaska than they will high speed rail.

My point isn't that high-speed rail doesn't have advantages; my point is that it is a non-starter because no one is willing to pay for it and it detracts from projects than could be done.

Gabe
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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, December 16, 2004 1:21 PM
I think that Amtrak is a basis to build on. Get the money to get the equipment in decent shape and the service up to par. Your statement about Amtrak being a failure is contrary to the increases in numbers of riders. There are communities that depend on Amtrak as their only public transit connection to the outside world. During winter, for some it is the only connection, public or private. To abandon such communities right now is downright cruel.
  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
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Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, December 16, 2004 2:33 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

I think that Amtrak is a basis to build on. Get the money to get the equipment in decent shape and the service up to par. Your statement about Amtrak being a failure is contrary to the increases in numbers of riders. There are communities that depend on Amtrak as their only public transit connection to the outside world. During winter, for some it is the only connection, public or private. To abandon such communities right now is downright cruel.


The ridership arguement is really shaky. Amtrak has grown less than the population and the economy, so you have to be really careful using gross ridership. You have to look at specific markets, revenue, etc. to determine success. Gross ridership alone makes it look like a failure. For example, you could look at NY to Albany comparing the 1970s to now. Amtrak ticket prices and ridership have outpaced economic growth, so that's a win. The Silver Service may be capacity constrained, so no growth is possible. The Sunset, well, um....uh.....there's a reason this is McCain's favorite whipping boy, and he may not be too far off base, there.

Now, that there are communities that depend on Amtrak for public transport - that's a pretty good arguement. The downside of this one, is that the train service might look like a "subsidy" to those towns. And, what about similar towns that have no train or bus service? Is it fair that only some get train service?

The "all weather" arguement is, sadly, no longer true. Some of Amtrak's host RRs shut down whenever bad weather is forecast, much less occurs. I won't name names, but their initials are CSX.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,968 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, December 16, 2004 2:56 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul Milenkovic

In all fairness to NYC and their jet-propelled RDC, I believe it was more serious than a stunt. I don't think they were ever serious about pulling the drive trains out of RDCs and sticking jet engines on the roof. From what I have read, the idea was to get a rail car going around 160 MPH by whatever means and collect some data as to what kind of forces it put on the track and whether truck hunting was a problem, and the jet engines were a "quick-and-dirty" solution to get the speed for the test.

Along similar lines, the US Department of Transportation procurred a 4 car set of Budd Silverliner MU cars, put tall gearing on the traction motors, and ran them past 150 MPH. That test, probably encouraged by the data from the jet-powered RDC, was the impetus for the DOT-sponsored Metroliner service, which was meant to be a demonstration of a potential revival of rail travel. There were to be three parts to the demonstration -- the NY-DC Metroliner using electric MU cars, the NY-Boston Turbo Train, using turbine power and passive banking on the non-completely electrified line, and a DC-Florida auto train service where passengers would ride inside their autos inside specially built auto carriers with passenger trucks. Only the first two parts of the demonstration were implemented. And as a demonstration, the Metroliner was not supposed to be the last word on the NEC, but it was meant to be a partnership between US-DOT and PRR to show what was possible.

What is interesting is the Budd Silverliner was tried-and-true technology from commuter service derived from the Budd Pioneer III -- this was a one-of coach car of conventional 85 foot length, Budd stainless steel construction, but it was ultra light weight (something like 65,000 lb) and it had exotic trucks (inside roller bearing, outside disk brake, something akin to the truck on a PCC street car). The Silverliners backed off on the ultra light weight but they had the inside roller bearing trucks (known as "Pioneer III" in the industry and used on commuter, rapid transit, and Amfleet cars).

I am not sure what the III in Pioneer III means -- I guess the "Pioneer I" would be the original Budd Zephyr train. Of all of the "lightweight experimentals" of the 1950's (Pennsy Keystone, Talgo, Aerotrain), Pioneer III was perhaps the less exotic and the only post-streamliner car building practice to go mainstream, although Talgo after all of these years is making a bit of a comeback.

Anyway, I digress. The actual Metroliner was a bit of a disaster, and if they had just stuck with the "hot-rodded" Silverliners, things may have worked out better. In addition to being up-geared, the Metroliners were up-powered -- I guess they figured they needed more acceleration to maintain schedules although the up-geared Silverliners could maintain whatever speed the operated on the NEC. Maybe it was "we need to keep up with the Japanese" in terms of how the Metroliner was speced, but the up-powering was a vicious cycle of adding power which added weight which required more power. My papa once told me (he worked for a consulting engineering firm that moved in those circles) that "the railroad" (i.e. the Pennsy) would have nothing to do with the Pioneer III trucks and speced a more conventional-style passenger truck, and I rode the Metroliner once, and the ride quality was a bit harsh.

Anyway, the whole concept of the NY-DC demonstration was if the commuter MU was the streetcar, the Metroliner was supposed to be the interurban, but the whole plan was messed up in execution and the Metroliner MUs were "carbarn queens" (planes are called "hanger queens" with such problems), and Amtrak ditched the Metroliner MUs almost as soon as they got good results with the AEM-7s.

How things have come full circle, I had read somewhere that Amtrak is of the opinion that the Pioneer III (Amfleet style) truck is hard on track, and for the Horizon cars, the speced a more conventional swing-hanger equalizer outside roller bearing truck in place of the Pioneer III truck used on the Comet commuter cars. I have not riden a Horizon car, but I rode a SEPTA Silverliner recently and liked it. Does anyone know the inside story on this?


Just a couple of comments/additions:

The Metroliners were so unreliable, they had Mech Dept. technicians on each run. Over time, PC and Amtrak made many mods to eliminate the trouble areas. One of the most noticable was the relocation of the dyn brk grids to the roof - about 4 cars go the mod at Wilmington. Sometime in the late 70s, Amtrak sent the cars off to GE to be rebuilt and have th DB grids put on the roof. Rumor has it that GE rebuilt them all back to the original wiring diagram rather than incorporate all the mods. I find it hard to believe, but did hear it from someone I generally trusted who was one of the on board techs. The rebuilt cars weren't any more reliable than before. Amtrak did try to put them back into Metroliner service for a while, but they were quickly bumped into Harrisburg service. There was one thru train to NY using Metroliner equipment that would still wind up to 120 mph thru NJ even into the mid 1980s. Then, some got neutered into cab cars, etc and the rest scrapped (although the original is in the PA museum.)

I always wondered why the ride couldn't be improved. Usually, it's a matter of getting the springs sized right and the right damping applied.

In general, you want to have soft secondaries (truck frame to bolster) and stiff primaries (wheel to truck frame) for good ride quality. The Amfleet cars (like the Silverliner/Arrow inboard journal trucks) have VERY stiff primaries - basically just a slab of rubber between the axle tube assembly and the truck frame. The whole arrangment is very simple and light, and good enough for 100 mph or so, but not what anyone would ever consider a high speed truck.

We are now into the 4th phase of the NEC project. The first phase was a pair of Turboliners, a bunch of Metroliners and some welded rail. The second phase was a whole bunch of concrete ties. The third phase was wire from NH to Boston and Acela. The fourth phase will be the new cab signal/civil speed system on the south end. (If ever there was a reason Amtrak should not exist, that signal system is it!)

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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