Amtrak's PTC implentation when completed will allow I-ETMS equipped locomotives to operate on ACSES-equipped lines, but without all of the features of ACSES. Their PTC documents for the Corridor and ITCS equipped lines spell out how it's supposed to work. UP and NS have some ITCS-equipped units for the segments they operate on, but most of those were equipped before I-ETMS equipped units became more common.
I'm just going to assume that ACSES and ITCS are just so wildly exotic that they can't be used anywhere else in the USA but Amtrak and New Jersey Transit lines.
Balises must be really expensive, I guess.
JL ChicagoUTA 'a Enhanced ATC is getting FRA approval. It's being enhanced to include roadway worker and temporary slow order enforcement which can be implemented remotely by the operations center or on site.
According to FRA's PTC dashboard they haven't even submitted a plan for approval yet, stretch to think something this radical will get approved on short notice.
The FRA has just updated its 'PTC Dashboard' for 4Q16:
https://www.fra.dot.gov/app/ptc/
It's probably not simple enough for our Congress critters to comprehend.
UP has published more details of its progress here:
https://www.up.com/media/releases/170315-ptc-milestones.htm
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Deggesty I wonder how many in Congress at that time thought that PTC was fully developed, in use, and readily available at the time of the decree.
I wonder how many in Congress at that time thought that PTC was fully developed, in use, and readily available at the time of the decree.
A few years ago there was an item on the local news about the "CSI" effect on jury trials. Prosecutors were losing cases because their level of forensic evidence in the real world wasn't the same as portrayed on hour long TV crime dramas.
There's no reason to think many Congress, or those producing documentaries on railroad safety, didn't think it was an "off the shelf/ready to go" product. That the only reason it wasn't installed was because the railroads didn't want to spend the mone. There were some who said as much then, as well as now.
Jeff
Well given that some members of Congress let alone the people that regulate the industries they regulate have a clue what the hell the industries that they are regulating do I would say next to NONE. I have had a FMCSA auditor ask me why my drivers 1200 miles away from home do not come home every single night. Another one said well a truck is no bigger than a car he can park it anyplace. Yet a 3rd one when asked why they came up with the 14 hour clock and at the time where considering what would happen if a driver was forced to stop for 10 hours in the middle of Chicago went what they can not just find a hotel for the night on Michigan Ave like I would.
Yeah those are some of the wonderful people I have had interactions with. All of them living in the DC Metro area the only time they realize that oh crap we screwed up is when their Whole Foods or Starbucks is out of supplies and are told because the truck did not make it in.
I literally had one politcian that had been in office here in IL for 20 years as a State Rep tell me that trains delivered to Wal-Marts in his District. I then asked him were was the siding on the one nearest to his house and why he opposed adding more safe parking for drivers here in IL. He hung up the phone on me.
Johnny
Shadow the Cats ownerHere is one from the Regulated days in the ICC era so everyone charged the same rates on freight movements. Well in the late 60's someone at the DOT got a wild idea lets mandate ABS brakes on all OTR trucks with a due date of May 31 1972 for all new equipment to have it installed and functional. This is going to sound really familar to the railroaders now. The equipment was not invented there was not even a prototype of what was going to be used and it had to work 100% of the time in all types of weather and not require tons of maintanice. That sound like the current PTC system. Well 1972 comes along the first gen units of ABS that were mandated are installed even though testing showed there was massive problems with the systems as devolped. Drivers would hit the brakes and not have brakes at all resulting in accidents of very messy cleanups. The ATA sued in Federal court to overturn the regulation stating that the 121 braking standard was more dangerous than what we had before. Guess what the Federal Judge agreed with the ATA the government appealed it all the way to the Supreme court after losing at the Appelate level also. Well the Supreme court refused to even hear the case. The rumor was that one of the pieces of evidence shown at the trial was of a truck that had the 121 ABS brakes on it hitting his brakes the brakes not applying and the truck slamming into a school bus during the test doing 55 MPH. The judges said whoever came up with this regulation needed to be on that bus in the back. It was 25 years before ABS was mandated again on OTR trucks however this time we had the ECM's instead of relays and the proper sensors to make sure the ABS worked all the time.
Well 1972 comes along the first gen units of ABS that were mandated are installed even though testing showed there was massive problems with the systems as devolped. Drivers would hit the brakes and not have brakes at all resulting in accidents of very messy cleanups. The ATA sued in Federal court to overturn the regulation stating that the 121 braking standard was more dangerous than what we had before. Guess what the Federal Judge agreed with the ATA the government appealed it all the way to the Supreme court after losing at the Appelate level also. Well the Supreme court refused to even hear the case. The rumor was that one of the pieces of evidence shown at the trial was of a truck that had the 121 ABS brakes on it hitting his brakes the brakes not applying and the truck slamming into a school bus during the test doing 55 MPH. The judges said whoever came up with this regulation needed to be on that bus in the back.
It was 25 years before ABS was mandated again on OTR trucks however this time we had the ECM's instead of relays and the proper sensors to make sure the ABS worked all the time.
All of which goes to demonstrate the realtity - there are very few NEW ideas. There are a whole host of ideas that failed in their first pass around the sun because other technologies didn't exist to support and make the original idea successful.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Here is one from the Regulated days in the ICC era so everyone charged the same rates on freight movements. Well in the late 60's someone at the DOT got a wild idea lets mandate ABS brakes on all OTR trucks with a due date of May 31 1972 for all new equipment to have it installed and functional. This is going to sound really familar to the railroaders now. The equipment was not invented there was not even a prototype of what was going to be used and it had to work 100% of the time in all types of weather and not require tons of maintanice. That sound like the current PTC system.
I think that comparing the current PTC issue to the adoption of knuckle couplers and air brakes is a pretty big apples and oranges comparison. The railroads of the late 1800's simply didn't want to spend the money because it would cut into the profits of the owners. Those folks seemed to have little regard for the safety of the workers. Spending the money on those safety appliances was probably not comparable to what PTC costs the railroads now. Also, while spending that money on safety appliances, the railroads didn't have to worry much about losing major market share to Conestoga wagons and oxcarts. The railroads ruled the transportation world back then, and money ruled the railroads. The current PTC issue looks-from my non-railroading perspective- like a government mandated solution to a complex problem not understood by those who passed the mandate. True, when the system is up and working, it should make railroads safer and cut down on fatalities. That's a good thing-right? How would that compare to the outcome of spending the same amount of money on other ways to make railroads safer- like at crossings? I'd venture to say that a Gazillion dollars invested in better crossing safety would have had a much better effect.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Firelock76What lead to the adoption of knuckle couplers and the Westinghouse air brake, among other things in the late 19th Century, was a yearly railroad accident casualty rate that rivaled the battles of the Civil War. We're not at that point, not by a long shot.
I don't think the 19th century railroads cared. Life spans weren't that long, and there was always another man waiting in line to take the place of the deceased.
Companies exsit to make profits. Safety appliances/practices don't usually add to the bottom line - just take from it. Of course they are going to need their feet held to the fire to adopt many of the practices. Just the way the dance is (and has always) been played. To believe otherwsie is just putting blind faith in a cute feel-good narrative created by those with financial insterest in that bottom line.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
PNWRMNM schlimm Fanatic ideology seems to overrule facts in your world. Nice to see you revert to the liberal Professorial tactic of accusing the other guy of doing what you yourself do all the time.
schlimm Fanatic ideology seems to overrule facts in your world.
Nice to see you revert to the liberal Professorial tactic of accusing the other guy of doing what you yourself do all the time.
Hardly. You are the extreme ideologue on here. You ignore facts or distort them to fit your beliefs. Try checking the history of the safety appliances. Or even read RME's post for elucidation.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimmFanatic ideology seems to overrule facts in your world.
PNWRMNM schlimm Firelock76 What lead to the adoption of knuckle couplers and the Westinghouse air brake, among other things in the late 19th Century, was a yearly railroad accident casualty rate that rivaled the battles of the Civil War. The adoption was mandated by the government, i.e., forced on the railroads. Good thing. All of the hard work was done by the railroads working through the Master Carbuilders Association, a predecessor of today's AAR and would have be completed about the time that it was without the Government's mandate, which is a fine example of self proclaimed Progressive Politicians getting in front of a parade already in progress, declaring themselves resposible for the parade, and selling that lie to the gullible!
schlimm Firelock76 What lead to the adoption of knuckle couplers and the Westinghouse air brake, among other things in the late 19th Century, was a yearly railroad accident casualty rate that rivaled the battles of the Civil War. The adoption was mandated by the government, i.e., forced on the railroads. Good thing.
Firelock76 What lead to the adoption of knuckle couplers and the Westinghouse air brake, among other things in the late 19th Century, was a yearly railroad accident casualty rate that rivaled the battles of the Civil War.
The adoption was mandated by the government, i.e., forced on the railroads. Good thing.
All of the hard work was done by the railroads working through the Master Carbuilders Association, a predecessor of today's AAR and would have be completed about the time that it was without the Government's mandate, which is a fine example of self proclaimed Progressive Politicians getting in front of a parade already in progress, declaring themselves resposible for the parade, and selling that lie to the gullible!
Fanatic ideology seems to overrule facts in your world.
PNWRMNMAll of the hard work was done by the railroads working through the Master Carbuilders Association, a predecessor of today's AAR...
With respect to air brakes, doesn't this lamentably shortchange Lorenzo Coffin?
I find almost the opposite effect with contemporary railroads: they stalled on working automatic brakes for all cars nearly as long as they could, opting for things like cheap 'pass-through' air hoses to save money and grouping the air cars on the front to satisfy the barest minimum conditions of the Power Brake Law. Of course many railroads also loved running at drag-freight speeds when they could, which is something that good power air brakes made obsolete. Yes, I see a modern parallel in a great many ways with ECP brakes.
I agree that knuckle couplers and good draft gear would have 'come in' in time simply because of increasing car weight, locomotive capacity, etc. BUT I think it would have been hobbled for much longer than it was, with the 'split knuckle' with hole for the pin that made early knuckle couplers 'compatible' with link and pin. In fact I have to wonder whether the advent of full automatic coupling might have been retarded decades or more if the Bishop Safety Knife or devices like it had caught on and been correctly used by the 'fraternity'.
I personally regret that there are so many instances in history when government 'forced something' on unwilling people that eventually worked to those people's benefit. Sometimes the most painful things are examples (I was in the University Cottage Club for the Sally Frank business, one of the poster children for how legal abuses can bring about positive change.) In my opinion, it's more important to determine when there are arbitrary or incorrect uses of government authority, with the 2008 PTC mandate being an example both of legitimate and wacky use of the technique ...
Firelock76What lead to the adoption of knuckle couplers and the Westinghouse air brake, among other things in the late 19th Century, was a yearly railroad accident casualty rate that rivaled the battles of the Civil War.
Being antediluvian or silurian or reactionary has very little to do with it, at least in my case. What lead to the adoption of knuckle couplers and the Westinghouse air brake, among other things in the late 19th Century, was a yearly railroad accident casualty rate that rivaled the battles of the Civil War. We're not at that point, not by a long shot.
I'll say this much, at least it's getting done albeit slowly and not without issues. Unlike many public transit projects which seem to be burdened with study after study after study after study and nothing ever gets done.
Anyway, I'm not going to lose any sleep over this, I've got other things to worry about.
I'm a lot more frightened by the distracted driver in the SUV I have to share the road with than any possible railroad mishap.
MidlandMike Firelock76 PNWRMNM I can not help but chuckle over the fact that most of the problems reported in the media involve government operations like Caltrain, while it seems the privately owned freight carriers are likely to meet the deadline. Remember this whole fiasco started over a ****ed commuter train. Mac Absolutely! All this because of a texting idiot at the controls of a commuter train. A far better solution would be stiff jail sentences for other idiots that do the same thing and survive the wreck. One wreck and all this hassle. I doubt the lawmakers ever heard the saying "One swallow does not a summer make." They should also be told the saying "Don't just do something, sit there!" That was just the final straw. There were many other collisions, overspeedings, open switches and maintenance worker injuries. And the accidents continue.
Firelock76 PNWRMNM I can not help but chuckle over the fact that most of the problems reported in the media involve government operations like Caltrain, while it seems the privately owned freight carriers are likely to meet the deadline. Remember this whole fiasco started over a ****ed commuter train. Mac Absolutely! All this because of a texting idiot at the controls of a commuter train. A far better solution would be stiff jail sentences for other idiots that do the same thing and survive the wreck. One wreck and all this hassle. I doubt the lawmakers ever heard the saying "One swallow does not a summer make." They should also be told the saying "Don't just do something, sit there!"
PNWRMNM I can not help but chuckle over the fact that most of the problems reported in the media involve government operations like Caltrain, while it seems the privately owned freight carriers are likely to meet the deadline. Remember this whole fiasco started over a ****ed commuter train. Mac
Absolutely! All this because of a texting idiot at the controls of a commuter train.
A far better solution would be stiff jail sentences for other idiots that do the same thing and survive the wreck.
One wreck and all this hassle. I doubt the lawmakers ever heard the saying "One swallow does not a summer make." They should also be told the saying "Don't just do something, sit there!"
That was just the final straw. There were many other collisions, overspeedings, open switches and maintenance worker injuries. And the accidents continue.
If the antediluvian sentiments of some on this thread had been followed in the past, we probably not have mandated automatic knuckle couplers or Westinghouse airbrakes.
PNWRMNMI can not help but chuckle over the fact that most of the problems reported in the media involve government operations like Caltrain, while it seems the privately owned freight carriers are likely to meet the deadline. Remember this whole fiasco started over a ****ed commuter train. Mac
What is interesting about the OP's posting is that the contractor is Parsons, who is also the integration contractor for Metrolink. Parsons is on schedule in Los Angeles, but can't seem to manage in San Francisco. Note however that Caltrain opted for two systems, one for their passenger trains and UP's system for freight trains. The two systems may not work well together.
One of the problems with most ATC technologies is that the per mile cost is higher due to the use of in track transponders. For passenger operations this is less a problem as they generally cover less track miles, and potentially offers greater train density as a result of higher braking performace of most passenger equipment. For freight railroads with thousands of miles of track to equip and no benefit from the ability to operate more trains. The numbers just don't work out.
JL ChicagoThe Utah UTA Frontrunner uses an enhanced ATC cab signal system with positive zero speed enforcement at red signals. It's a remarkably simple yet effective system. Google front runner rule book uta for a PDF. Towards the end describes the system.
i don't believe that will pass muster with FRA as a PTC system.
Firelock76 I wondered why PTC when ATC technology has been around for decades, has been proven, and it works. Oh well, this is what comes from panic legislation. Maybe the next time something (anything) nasty happens the solons will stop, take a deep breath, and think long and hard before doing anything, that is if anything can be done or is really needed to be done.
I wondered why PTC when ATC technology has been around for decades, has been proven, and it works.
Oh well, this is what comes from panic legislation. Maybe the next time something (anything) nasty happens the solons will stop, take a deep breath, and think long and hard before doing anything, that is if anything can be done or is really needed to be done.
Because ATC does not meet all the fictional requirements of PTC. Roadway worker and temporary slow order enforcement being two examples..
blue streak 1 BaltACD I don't know if CSX will complete their installations by the December 31, 2018 deadline or not. BALT-------- Any hint what will happen if the CSX takeover happens ? Could be a quick reduction in costs comes from posponing PTC installations ? Get the money and run and leave to consequences to future management ? Could or would FRA step in in time ?
BaltACD I don't know if CSX will complete their installations by the December 31, 2018 deadline or not.
I don't know if CSX will complete their installations by the December 31, 2018 deadline or not.
BALT-------- Any hint what will happen if the CSX takeover happens ? Could be a quick reduction in costs comes from posponing PTC installations ? Get the money and run and leave to consequences to future management ?
Could or would FRA step in in time ?
As I said, I retired in December and I no longer have any internal information channels.
I was 'my belief' when I retired that over 80% of the required territory would have all the equipment necessary installed by the end of 2017. From 'sketchy channels' that signal construction gangs were to be eliminated during 2018 as everything they were installing would have been installed.
I have no idea what will actually happen, however, since probably 3/4 of the allocated expenditures have already been spent - not to finish the job and put the company at odds with the regulations would be counter productive.
CSX is presently on the 'good' side of PTC and I suspect intends to stay that way.
blue streak 1Any hint what will happen if the CSX takeover happens ? Could be a quick reduction in costs comes from posponing PTC installations ? Get the money and run and leave to consequences to future management ?
Perhaps completion of PTC might be made a factor in the approval of the takeover?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
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