Hi, Guys.
I watched from a distance on the climate change thread. What I noticed is that rather than just saying why you didn't like the article, a lot of you started pitching more tech articles that you want to see done in the magazine. OK, hit me with more specifics.
I'll be attending the Transportation Research Board in January; the annual show-and-tell event at the Transportation Technology Center in Pueblo, Colo., in March, and Wheel-Rail. What do you want me to bring back?
~SS
Steve SweeneyDigital Editor, Hobby
OK Steve, I'll be the first. MoW has always been of interest to me given that without the people who do that task the railroads would be stopped dead in their tracks [pun intended]. Having made friends with a (now retired) track foreman and learned a lot from him I think Mud Chicken has lots to offer if he has the time and inclination to do so. I also know a few signal maintainers and find their jobs of interest. Actually, any "behind the scenes" operation would be of interest.
Norm
Where are the railroads finding the trained people to design install and maintain all the new PTC equipment? Who is training them? Are the employees sucessful in thier jobs?
Are there tech schools specializing in this training?
RSS
Randy
Cool! I'd like to see how technology and systems developed for foreign railroads that have entirely different operating requirements can/will be adapted to our own rail lines. So often on these forums someone will throw out there "Well, in Europe, it's done like that. Why can't we just do it that way?".
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I would like to see coverage of the pros and cons of running longer freight trains. This would include new ideas and inventions for expediting long trains when they break down, and also how this might include the use of independent contractors to respond to breakdown emergencies.
I would like to see more on signaling improvements or innovations in the area of reverse CTC on a double track mainline. Attempts to squeeze more train capacity out of existing fixed tracks without having to lay more track. I am guessing someone has done some work in that area given the increasing choke points nationwide.
Basically anything on increasing rail network fluidity.
Great idea!!
Norm48327 OK Steve, I'll be the first. MoW has always been of interest to me given that without the people who do that task the railroads would be stopped dead in their tracks [pun intended]. Having made friends with a (now retired) track foreman and learned a lot from him I think Mud Chicken has lots to offer if he has the time and inclination to do so. I also know a few signal maintainers and find their jobs of interest. Actually, any "behind the scenes" operation would be of interest.
Count me in, along with Norm 48327. MOW and 'things' MOW! Areas that are as necessary to railroad operations, as locomotives. But, because they seem to be done while keeping the railroad 'fluid and operational' seem to happen at times when railfans are only able to catch the equipment between trains or moving from one area to another.
I woud enjoy seening some articles on the 'current state' of the machines that do the work and save some of the labor while accomplishing their tasks.
The stories of the men who steer and accomplish the various maintenance tasks . Also, how the railroads manage the 'tasks' for those MOW Gangs, is it all done with computer tracking programs, or how critical arte the on-site inspections by roving track inspectors?
I am curious about some of the ' third-party] (?) contractors that preform those MOW functions of inspections, track welding, and heavy maintenance tasks. I know that in many cases the railroads used to have their own equipment and job asignment; at what points does it become cost effective for the railroad to out-source some of those tasks. What kind of work life do the men, and women who preform those various MOW jobs have ? Do they generally work on one railroad, or do they jump from one line to another as the jobs they do are assigned?
Thanks,
I want to see coverage of how technology could be applied to measure and evaluate freight train load distribution overall in order to be correlated with track profile, train speed, total tonnage, and operating control status in order to calculate on a real-time basis, the statistical probability of an “emergency” brake application causing a derailment; and present this information to the engineer on a cab display. This would be a great new tool for engineers.
EuclidI want to see coverage of how technology could be applied to measure and evaluate freight train load distribution overall in order to be correlated with track profile, train speed, total tonnage, and operating control status in order to calculate on a real-time basis, the statistical probability of an “emergency” brake application causing a derailment; and present this information to the engineer on a cab display. This would be a great new tool for engineers.
Pretty much already exists.
http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/bizns/archives/Summer2014/article3_augbizns.html
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann Euclid I want to see coverage of how technology could be applied to measure and evaluate freight train load distribution overall in order to be correlated with track profile, train speed, total tonnage, and operating control status in order to calculate on a real-time basis, the statistical probability of an “emergency” brake application causing a derailment; and present this information to the engineer on a cab display. This would be a great new tool for engineers. Pretty much already exists. http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/bizns/archives/Summer2014/article3_augbizns.html
Euclid I want to see coverage of how technology could be applied to measure and evaluate freight train load distribution overall in order to be correlated with track profile, train speed, total tonnage, and operating control status in order to calculate on a real-time basis, the statistical probability of an “emergency” brake application causing a derailment; and present this information to the engineer on a cab display. This would be a great new tool for engineers.
That is a step toward what I am referring to, but stops short. What I am referring to would collect all the information that LEADER does, but not for the purpose of saving fuel.
What I refer to is a system that will automatically determine whether it is safe to make an emergency application of train brakes. This would relieve the engineer from having to mentally calculate this decision.
The system I refer to would either tell the engineer whether or not an emergency application should be made, or it would lock out the option for an emergency application when it determines that it is too risky.
EuclidThe system I refer to would either tell the engineer whether or not an emergency application should be made, or it would lock out the option for an emergency application when it determines that it is too risky.
Heh.. good luck with that. But thanks for the laugh.
Build it that way, and you can be certain you'll be on the receiving end of massive lawsuits, and probably enormous judgments, sooner rather than later.
You have the haptics entirely backward: the system should automatically determine 'maximum safe service braking' -- at the valves or consist sections, not by advice or lights to the engineer -- but should never, never, never "lock out" the emergency brake or the engineer's ability to select it, rightly or wrongly, at any time.
Now, if you care to follow MMA into a fast track to expedient reorganization, you can actually establish training that teaches engineers not to apply emergency brakes based on reported train composition or dynamics. Keep in mind that the derailment-detection system acts in much the same way, probably through much of the same equipment, as this train-analysis module. Would you have the emergency automatically and unexpectedly locked out if a derailment is reported or suspected? That's a really poor idea as the default, no matter how "preferable" it might be under particular circumstances.
"I can see a LPG truck highcentered on the crossing 1/2 a mile ahead, but the train won't met me dump it because I might throw a flatcar of lumber on the ground?"
RME Euclid The system I refer to would either tell the engineer whether or not an emergency application should be made, or it would lock out the option for an emergency application when it determines that it is too risky. Build it that way, and you can be certain you'll be on the receiving end of massive lawsuits, and probably enormous judgments, sooner rather than later. You have the haptics entirely backward: the system should automatically determine 'maximum safe service braking' -- at the valves or consist sections, not by advice or lights to the engineer -- but should never, never, never "lock out" the emergency brake or the engineer's ability to select it, rightly or wrongly, at any time. Now, if you care to follow MMA into a fast track to expedient reorganization, you can actually establish training that teaches engineers not to apply emergency brakes based on reported train composition or dynamics. Keep in mind that the derailment-detection system acts in much the same way, probably through much of the same equipment, as this train-analysis module. Would you have the emergency automatically and unexpectedly locked out if a derailment is reported or suspected? That's a really poor idea as the default, no matter how "preferable" it might be under particular circumstances.
Euclid The system I refer to would either tell the engineer whether or not an emergency application should be made, or it would lock out the option for an emergency application when it determines that it is too risky.
Well, I did say "either or", so the concept could choose one or the other. But actually, it would probably be some blended protocol where the engineer could override the lockout decision of the system.
In any case, the whole point would not apply for service braking, as you suggest. It is "emergency" braking that raises the concern about derailing the train and causing a worse disaster than hitting what the emergency braking was intended to mitigate.
Why is it a poor idea? If an engineer can choose to refrain from emergency braking why can't a smart system help with the decision?
The main thing an automatic system could not factor is the reason for the emergency application. So, an override of the automatic lockout would allow the command to be bypassed in case there is a gasoline truck stalled on the track.
To your last point, no, an emergency application would not be blocked if the train was equipped with derailment detectors and they indicated the start of a derailment. That is, unless the train were also equipped with ECP brakes and my differential braking concept. Then, yes, the emergency application would be blocked and replaced by the differential braking protocol.
This is the wrong thread to take up this discussion.
What we would have Steve Sweeney do is ask around to see what the consensus at the tech conferences might be about (1) derailment detection and (2) restriction of emergency braking when that might induce or exacerbate derailments, and then work that up into an article -- probably as a sidebar to a discussion of ECP brakes and their potential.
That will add something new to the discussion instead of more around and around and around she goes.
How about autonomous trains?
I don't suscribe so I don't know if this has been covered before.
Yes, autonomous train operation would be a great topic for technical articles.
I also want to see much more detailed and in deep coverage of the practical application of ECP brakes to trains operating in North America. This would explain variations in the control systems of ECP brakes including wire and wireless, and power supplies independent of the locomotive. It would also explain the logistics and approaches to converting over to ECP brakes in the North American system.
For as significant as this technology is, it seems like news and detailed articles have barely scratched the surface in the last 10-15 years.
[quote user="Euclid"]
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What about an adaptation of the current automotive technology that uses computers to determine when, and with what force, to stop an impending collision between an'equipped car' and other traffic?
Could not the same type of system be engineered to work in a railroad environment? I think that this is one of the aims of PTC ( to control the operations of different trains, to avoid them occupying the same track space) Could not the system be able to accept the 'in-puts' from several loco on-board systems (information that is already available, but not 'linked' to the operating enviroment)? By gettting a system that would analyse the information, an engineer could 'be assisted' in the making of a decision to stop or reduce train air, in order to possibly stop and application of braking to avoid a rolling derailment?
A 'gateway' to an autonomous train operation?
CMStPnP I would like to see more on signaling improvements or innovations in the area of reverse CTC on a double track mainline. Attempts to squeeze more train capacity out of existing fixed tracks without having to lay more track. I am guessing someone has done some work in that area given the increasing choke points nationwide. Basically anything on increasing rail network fluidity.
https://www.linkedin.com/groups/2399643
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9941774/RAS/RAS-Newsletter%202015_V1.1.pdf
https://www.linkedin.com/in/muten
Job ad for Rail Operations Analyst:
http://careers.gannettfleming.com/jobsearch/job-details/rail-operations-analyst/3921/1/1/
There are also several proprietary-type modeling applications out there. About 5 - 8 years back there was a discussion of one with Railway Man/ 1435mm - I can't remember its name right now, though.
- Paul North.
Not technical, but: The "hypothetical railroads" that the STB uses in rate challenge cases. Some neat info there !
My younger brother has begun his last year with Catalyst Pulp & Paper. It's an essentially moribund industry, and listening to all he went through the past 10 years as a senior comptroller trying to figure out how to avoid parting with a single dollar, or how to save another, was grounds for some prolonged head-shaking.
Railroads are generally in much better shape, and must (surely) have a solid future. My question is, if anyone in the industry can be persuaded to part with something more than generalities without giving too much away, what is that future likely to entail? What have the head offices been losing sleep over during the past decade, particularly with efficiencies, wages, and benefits?
One could be forgiven for learning late that this site is mostly about operations and the motive equipment that provides the fandom, but what about the back offices a few doors down from the CEO's? What have they been losing sleep over, coming in for many Saturdays, and so on?
How my dear brother survived his late 50's without a heart attack is beyond me. His experience was a horrible and protracted strain whose variety only came in its cyclic nature as each year passed.
A basic "How it Works" and a basic "How it's Made" section would work...
23 17 46 11
I agree with Uncle Jake and Edblysard above. More technical description and explanation.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Without getting propietary - what do the various rail testing "cars" "see" and how is it presented to those who need to know?
CSX in central NY has recently been giving the DS fits as they clean up after some work along the line (including some rail replacement). To go along with the rest of the MOW ideas - how do they do it, what do they do, and how do they handle the materials, as in re-use, recycle, sell to a recycler, etc.
How about "a day in the life of a dispatcher" on a busy line?
Security issues duly considered, what's involved in dispatching from a center that may be a thousand miles (or more) away from a given track location? Communications (code lines, fiber optics, satellites, etc), territory familiarization, etc.
Even if a topic has been covered in the past - not everyone has subscribed since Issue Number One. In fact, a previous article may be cited as a method of comparing practices then vs now (ie, section gangs vs mechanized gangs).
Just going through 40+ year old issues may provide fodder for "then and now" articles, much as is done with the map feature.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
So far the big themes are ECP brakes, automation (of all kinds MOW, ops, etc.), how do they _fill in the blank_? All great suggestions. I'm re-working the calendar in my mind already.
In the tech column over the past year or two, I've been experimenting with more graphic/illustration treatment of stories as opposed to 1,000-word-explainers with just a photo or two.
Opinions? Wishes, please "do's" or "don't's" for how you want to see these appear...
Steve SweeneySo far the big themes are ECP brakes, automation (of all kinds MOW, ops, etc.), how do they _fill in the blank_? All great suggestions. I'm re-working the calendar in my mind already. In the tech column over the past year or two, I've been experimenting with more graphic/illustration treatment of stories as opposed to 1,000-word-explainers with just a photo or two. Opinions? Wishes, please "do's" or "don't's" for how you want to see these appear...
Remember PTC is a multi-faceted 'how do they do it'. Determining the design features required from the Congressional mandate. Designing features that COULD be manufactured. Field installation of hardware from both a signal and radio viewpoint - they are different. Installation of equipment in locomotives. The design and programming of the 'back office' computer applications that must tie it all together in concert with the Class 1's multiple vendors of Computer Aided Dispatching Systems. Finally what is required from employee training and real world testing and validation of the PTC system as it is installed into operation. Each facet is worty of in depth 'how it's done' article.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Steve Sweeney So far the big themes are ECP brakes, automation (of all kinds MOW, ops, etc.), how do they _fill in the blank_? All great suggestions. I'm re-working the calendar in my mind already. In the tech column over the past year or two, I've been experimenting with more graphic/illustration treatment of stories as opposed to 1,000-word-explainers with just a photo or two. Opinions? Wishes, please "do's" or "don't's" for how you want to see these appear...
Firstly, I am a big supporter of ECP based on my observation of operating ECP trains in Australia. I spent some years taking measurements of train action and truck tracking characteristics on systems that have subsequently converted to all-ECP operation. So I know why they changed over.
There is no new design work required, you can buy everything you need off the shelf from Wabco or NYAB.
The equipment has not been designed to reduce the effect of derailments of block oil trains but in theory more rapid brake application on trailing tank cars should help.
But the privately owned export mineral railways and operators in Australia, including those operating on track shared with passenger trains have overwhelmingly adopted ECP brakes as a commercial investment with measurable returns and there is still no regulatory interest in mandating it.
Australia's systems use the same track and trucks as US Railroads. Some vehicles (ore cars) are heavier and some vehicles are lighter but the equipment is basically interchangeable. So apart from familiarising operators, nothing needs to be tested or developed.
Some coverage of these Australian operations emphasising the similarities to USA operations might clarify the ECP situation.
M636C
It is nice to know that there are some folks who would like to hear what the folks out here in the rest of the country, and in other countries , as well, have got to say about an industry the readership is interested in!
And to Larry's (tree68) point:[in part; a posting from elsewhere in this Thread]
"...How about "a day in the life of a dispatcher" on a busy line?
Just going through 40+ year old issues may provide fodder for "then and now" articles, much as is done with the map feature..."
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