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Pipeline leak / shutdown questions

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Pipeline leak / shutdown questions
Posted by blue streak 1 on Sunday, September 18, 2016 9:30 AM

http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2016/09/how_alabama_pipeline_leak_led.html#incart_river_index

The efffects of the Colonial pipeline shut down in Alabama brings up more questions than answers. Persons with knowledge in various disciplines may have answers.

Transportation

1.  The effect of auto gas is already being shown here is Georgia as the discount stations are running out. Will this effect the auto travel on the I-85 corridor and I-95 Va north ?

2.  Will this overload Amtrak on these corridors as Crescent south bound is almost sold out tonight ? Carolinian is not operating tomorrow for mtce. What is happening on the NEC ?

3.  Since diesel and jet fuel is reduced as well will RRs need to bring in tank cars of diesel ?  How does Amtrak handle that ?

4.  Colonial has a direct pipelie to ATL airport.  ATL airport is a major fueling point for all airlines.  That can be mitigated somewhat by fueling as much as possible from non affected points to BHM, ATL, CLT, RDU, RIC, WASH, Unfortunately that might not be much help if airlines experience full aircraft.

5.  Is there more standby storage in the NE than the south ?   ATL storage location in Doraville appears to be maxed out and may be why running out of gas sooner ? 

6. State of Ga. has suspended HOS for tanker drivers bringing in fuel from areas not affected. 

7.  What are other states affected doing ?

8.  If this cotinues how quickly can RRs bring fuel to affected areas ?

9.   

11.  How does this repair begin ?

12.  Removal of spilled gasoline probably first as no welding until volitiles removed.  How much has to be removed from idle pipeline ?

13.  Is the valve shown part of the original pipeline or added to isolate broken section ?

14.  How much gasoline left in pipeline from isolation point north can be pumped to receiving stations ATL - north ? 

15.  What will be the repair sequence to start pipeline back up ?

16.  Will the refiners in LA. be able to continue making gasoline or will lack of storage shut them down ?

OTHER items 

21.  the criminals will certainly come out of woodwork.

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Sunday, September 18, 2016 10:08 AM

Some partial answers:

1. "There's not much cheap gasoline, but there's lots of expensive gasoline" (from the 1979 oil embargo).

12. Haven't seen that up close, but have watched that done to natural gas lines (from a safe distance).  Best is to install 2 other 'tapping' valves just each side to close off the line.  If that can't be done, a weld can be made as long as oxygen is excluded by a nitrogen, argon, or similar 'blankets.  More likely is to cut a squared-off end and install a 'plug' with mechancial (bolted) joints at each end. 

3. (kind of): As soon as I read about this, I thought this would be a good use for some of the idle CBR tank cars, to replace the pipeline's function (although I see they are planning on building a 'bypass' pipeline around the break).  Some temporary work-arounds (hoses, etc.) to load/ unload the cars at each end of the trip would be needed, but that might be faster than waiting for the repair, testing, investigations, etc. to be completed.

This lspill also casts doubt on the oft-heard claim that pipelines are safer/ less likely to leak than rairlcars.  Estimated 336,000 gallons ~11 railcars.  I believe that would a worse wreck than any since Lac Megantic.  Worse, not detected for 3 days, and then only by chance by a nearby surface mine inspector ! 

- Paul North. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by challenger3980 on Sunday, September 18, 2016 10:37 AM

Paul North wrote:

Worse, not detected for 3 days, and then only by chance by a nearby surface mine inspector ! 

 

Paul the 3 day reference read to ME, that it was 3 days AFTER the leak was DETECTED, before crews were allowed on site for repairs, due to high levels of gasoline and benzene vapors. I did not see any estimate of how long the leak spewed gasoline before detection, though that had to be quite a while to spill 336,000 gallons. Thank Heavens, there was no ignition source nearby.

Doug

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Sunday, September 18, 2016 1:44 PM

You're right - don't know why I thought that. 

Also right.  How long was it going on ??  For a 3 ft. diam pipeline, it wouldn't take long to leak that many gals. from the whole thing - 11 tank cars' worth, say about 9 x that length of pipe for each car x 11 cars ~ 100 x 60' ~ 6,000 ft.; at 1 MPH a little over 1 hr. But a leak that big would have caused a loss of pressure which the system sensors or operators would have noticed and automatically shut down.  More likely it was a dribble to a 'garden hose' (as I like to describe moderate leaks or flows that are more than a drip and less than a fire hydrant), and could have taken several days.

- Paul North.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Sunday, September 18, 2016 9:55 PM

They install blocking valves on both sides of the leak.  It appears they also installed small hot tap valves adjacent for monitoring purposes.  They have materials to deal with fumes to make it safe to weld.  With the leak section blocked off, they then install a parallel bypass line.  I would guess the line would be back in service in a few days, long before they could install rail load/unloading facilities.  The bulk of the spill will be removed quickly, but it will might be years before the residual in soil/groundwater is cleaned-up.

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, September 19, 2016 7:39 AM

MidlandMike
...it will might be years before the residual in soil/groundwater is cleaned-up.

An underground leak at an airfield near here is still in the clean-up stage - almost ten years hence...

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, September 19, 2016 5:29 PM

The by-pass valves will finish being installed and in operation in one to 2 days ?  The by-pass pipe finished about the same time.  It would be very interesting how the valve is cut into the current pipeline.  Colonial has no idea yet exact location of leak or cause ?  Colonial reports 700+ persons working on the problem ?

More stations in Atlanta area are running out but so far motorists can get gas by 10 -20 minute waits at other stations.  Our local Loves and its 16 pumps were all completely busy at 1415 today.  Those pump positions do handle diesel.  Gas prices = or about 5 cents less than diesel whereas usually about 40 cents less.   

At a local station across from this poster was observed using a dip stick into its tank showing ~~ 14" of gas left.   Reports that upper SC is running short now and wonder if that will proceed north east ward all way to NJ ?

One has to wonder if persons getting the last dregs of gas from a station might get fouled fuel filters or worse ?

The parallel pipeline is carrying some gasoline but appears it is smaller, slower, and needs more separation isolation work between gas and the diesel / jet fuel products.

 

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Posted by csxns on Monday, September 19, 2016 5:46 PM

blue streak 1
upper SC is running short

Where i go on the NC SC line is out.

Russell

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Posted by mudchicken on Monday, September 19, 2016 6:39 PM

Tagging onto PDN:

 

You do not have the option of responsibly setting up a transfer, rail to truck or tank, overnite. Spill containment, track pans, grounded track, firefighting precautions, tank et al do not appear overnight. You have to permit yourselves to the slow as molasses regulatory system and work within PHMSA rules. by the time you got set-up, crisis over.

 

Would love to see when the last time the line was smart-pigged.

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by Mookie on Monday, September 19, 2016 7:35 PM

mudchicken
Would love to see when the last time the line was smart-pigged.

Something in the back of my memory sez a smart-pig is something you send thru pipes to check them from the inside?  

Or a dumb cat?

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, September 19, 2016 7:47 PM

This kind of pig has projections on its surface that scrub the inside of the pipe as it goes through the line.

Johnny

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Posted by Mookie on Monday, September 19, 2016 7:55 PM

Deggesty

This kind of pig has projections on its surface that scrub the inside of the pipe as it goes through the line.

 

 Thank you, sir. 

Now I can sprinkle this in a conversation with der Chicken and impress him.  Right?  Mischief

She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, September 19, 2016 8:14 PM

A little more information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigging

Here, Pig Pig Pig Pig....

They gather their own slop. so you do not need to feed them.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Monday, September 19, 2016 8:15 PM

Deggesty

This kind of pig has projections on its surface that scrub the inside of the pipe as it goes through the line.

 

That's the regular type of pipeline pig.  A smart pig, as Mookie remembered, is a pipeline inspection tool.

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Posted by RME on Monday, September 19, 2016 8:32 PM

Mookie
Something in the back of my memory sez a smart-pig is something you send thru pipes to check them from the inside?

Or a dumb cat?

Well, close.  A CAT with urinary-tract incompetence?

Here's a dog-and-pony show that gets into some details of smart pigging halfway through:

Note that a considerable number of devices or 'active protrusions' can be combined in one 'pig', and it can be pulled by cable (and trail data cabling rather than use radio or onboard memory storage) rather than require pipeline pressure to push it.

 

 

 

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Posted by Mookie on Monday, September 19, 2016 9:52 PM

We actually had an Intertek commercial running here awhile back.  Now I know part of what they do.  Interesting...

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 4:04 AM

Random thoughts

1.  PIG  ?  Pipeline inspection gadget ?

2.  Guess the bypass valves need capability for pigs to pass thru the diversion ?

3.  The completion date seems to be getting further into the future.

4.  Various unreliable sources seem to think that this pipeline is close to capacity ?  If so shortages may take some time to mitigate.

5.  Wonder if petroleum refineries and tank farms have standby rail or truck alternate receiving station ?

6.  If you get gas at station near empty will you need to change fuel filter sometime soon ?  Maybe a fuel filter shortage in future ?

RME
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Posted by RME on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 4:55 PM

blue streak 1
PIG ? Pipeline inspection gadget ?

No, German "Pipeline-Inspektionsgerät"

 

 

Wink

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 5:17 PM

Colonial claims they may start pipeline tomorrow but will take few days to get supply chain working ?

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Posted by MidlandMike on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 8:31 PM

blue streak 1

...

2.  Guess the bypass valves need capability for pigs to pass thru the diversion ?

...

 

The valve pictured looks like a gate type valve made to pass a pig.  If not, they could inatall pig launcher and catcher to get around it.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 8:35 PM

blue streak 1

Colonial claims they may start pipeline tomorrow but will take few days to get supply chain working ?

 

Pipelines are like mainline railroads, in that the both need to get a shut-down line working again as soon as possible.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, September 21, 2016 10:12 PM

Colonial reports pipeline has started up

BUT:

Speed of the pipeline is reported to be 3 - 5 MPH at that rate will take  ~~  50 Hours.  But there are too many unknowns. 

1.  How much gasoline is left in the pipeline at low spots that will help get gas here in Atlanta sooner ?

2.  Along with that question all of you on down the pipeline from ATL  -  NJ will there be residual shortages ?

3.  More stations here out of gas with prices up 20 - 30 cents.  Exception is our Loves which has kept price at $2.05.9 for regular.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, September 22, 2016 6:21 AM

My observation of the 'fuel' industry - they will use any excuse they can manufacture to raise prices - no matter if the excuse they are using is real or imaginary.  Last year it was refinerys shut down for maintenance, next year it will be some other 'reason'.

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Posted by rdamon on Thursday, September 22, 2016 6:45 AM
And they are much faster to raise the price than they are to normalize it after the “event”

 

Most of the major station in NW Atlanta are open and there are not lines. I think most people up here filled up every car, truck, lawnmower and gas can they had which contributed to the shortages.
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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, September 22, 2016 10:42 AM

rdamon
And they are much faster to raise the price than they are to normalize it after the “event”

After the BP Gulf incident, I found out that what you pay at the pump reflects not what the dealer paid for the last load, but what they will be paying for the next load.

Of course, that doesn't address flat out price gouging....

LarryWhistling
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, September 22, 2016 11:20 AM

Tree:  Need some help here.  Could not locate my Haz Mat book.  A northbound CSX manifest just came by here with dot 112 cars 4 -  ~  45 plackarded 1307 then mixed cars.  Is that a gasoline number ?  

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Posted by Semper Vaporo on Thursday, September 22, 2016 11:48 AM

1307 is "Xylenes" but it does not specify whether solid or liquid (those are other nunmbers).

You can download the list from:

http://r.duckduckgo.com/l/?kh=-1&uddg=http%3A%2F%2Fbhs.econ.census.gov%2Fbhs%2Fcfs%2FHazmat%2520Code%2520List.pdf

 

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, September 22, 2016 12:21 PM

The 2016 ERG (Orange Book) is available for download: http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/PHMSA/DownloadableFiles/Files/Hazmat/ERG2016.pdf.  You can also download it to your smartphone - check your app store.  The app features a search function, so you don't have to thumb through, looking for the methyl ethyl badstuff you just spotted.

UN1307 is, indeed, listed as "xylenes," with a guide number of 130.  That guide is headed "Flammable Liquids (Water Immiscible/Noxious)."

LarryWhistling
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Posted by MidlandMike on Thursday, September 22, 2016 2:24 PM

blue streak 1

Colonial reports pipeline has started up

BUT:

Speed of the pipeline is reported to be 3 - 5 MPH at that rate will take  ~~  50 Hours.  But there are too many unknowns. 

1.  How much gasoline is left in the pipeline at low spots that will help get gas here in Atlanta sooner ?

... 

Not enough info.  With a slow leak, pipeline would remain full.  However, there are pumping stations beyond the leak, and did they continue to pump?

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Posted by samfp1943 on Friday, September 23, 2016 6:32 PM

MidlandMike

 

 
blue streak 1

Colonial reports pipeline has started up

BUT:

Speed of the pipeline is reported to be 3 - 5 MPH at that rate will take  ~~  50 Hours.  But there are too many unknowns. 

1.  How much gasoline is left in the pipeline at low spots that will help get gas here in Atlanta sooner ?

... 

 

 

Not enough info.  With a slow leak, pipeline would remain full.  However, there are pumping stations beyond the leak, and did they continue to pump?

 

Several nights ago, a TV broadcast was reporting on the then relatively, recently discovered pipeline leak...Photos ( of the reported approx 1/4 of a million gallon loss (?).

They also showed some joints of  larger diameter pipe (it looked to be in the neighborhood of 30/36" diameter (?).   The comment made then,  by the narrator, that the pipeline company was going to 'bypass' the leaking area (?).

    I Have seen little else, except of information about gas stations running out of product in the Southeast. As well as a couple of comments recently, the repairs had been made, and 'deliveries' would begin soon.(?)  The only effects we have seen around here is about a nickle spike in gas prices....The price seems to be able to react to 'delivery crises'  within hours, and it takes a lot longer to settle back down. PirateMy 2 Cents

 

 


 

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