6000hp engines.

[Anonymous]

Can anyone tell me how successful are the new 6000hp engines from EMD & GE? I assume from the lack of orders and low visibility in train media that these new giants are not making the impact expected? I appreciate any news.

[wabash1]

i have run a set of ge 6000 hp units other than a little slow on loading but better than past ge units they were great. its one of the few ge units i enjoyed running. i have not run any emd units yet but awaiting the day i do.

[Anonymous]

Basically the UP was the driving force behind the 6000 HP models from both GM and GE,and by all reports Uncle Pete has not been happy with the results. Both manufacturers had to pu***he envelope in developing the new prime movers for these units,and it's been a rocky road in the development process. There's also concern that the big engines are too hard on the rails and switches.
CSX seems to have been the most satisfied of the three roads which roster 6000 HP locomotives,but their whole fleet of AC6000CWs just had to be sent back to have the traction motors replaced. CP has a small number of H engined SD90MACs but hasn't shown any interest in ordering more.

[Anonymous]

GE RULES...EMD SUCKS... EMD AC'S ARE SLOW LOADING...WEAK DYNAMIC ROLLING SCRAP. GE CW44-9AC'S ARE GREAT... I HAVE NEVER FOUND THE TOP END OF THEM..OR THIER CW60-9AC'S SISTERS..AND THIER DYNAMIC BRAKE WILL BRING A 17 THOUSAND TON COAL TRAIN FROM 40MPH TO A CRAWL IN NO TIME!!! TRY DOING THAT WITH AN EMD!!!!I WOULD RUN GE ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!!!

[Anonymous]

From what I have heard it hasn't sounded like any road is too thrilled with them. I heard that the GE's were burning out their traction motors pretty fast and the EMD's were having problems with some of the prime movers at first and then some of the radiators.

TRAINS had an interesting article a couple months ago, saying they think the horse power race could be over. And after reading it I can agree. The locomotives in some ways are too big. They are definately not as versitile as older power, if you use them in a yard switching or on a local you're not using them efficiently. Plus they're so heavy, it's kinda like the situation UP had with some of it's larger older power (length mostly), when a locomotive is too big and heavy it has to be confined to the mailines with the heaviest rail and roadbed. If you have alot of lighter units go down at once then what do you do?

[Anonymous]

I expect that what we are seeing right now is a repeat of what happened in the early 1970s. EMD had the SD45X out at 4200 HP which only sold a small hadfull to SP and MLW had the M640 which only sold one unit to CP. The technology of the time just wasn't up to supporting 4000 horsepower. But now a 4000 (or greater) HP locomotive is common.

So some years from now, when the builders have been able to develop the technology to reliably produce 6000 HP and deliver it to the railhead, we will see 6000 HP locomotives becoming common.

[PaulWWoodring]

I have run many of the CSX GE AC6000's. When they are properly matched to a manifest freight of the right tonnage they are great. They have a really bad low speed vibration problem, so bad at times that you think it may jump off the rails. CSX also doesn't believe in giving the engineer enough sand to work with on newer units (the contrast with the ex-CR SD60's is rather stark in this regard). The really outstanding feature on them are the high capacity dynamic brakes (good down to 2 mph) that are really too much for a train under 2000 tons. At that weight even a minimal dynamic application can generate too much braking power and slow the train down too much.

The biggest drawback to any GE is the slow throttle response, especially when trying to maintain speed going from dynamic to power. Overall I'm really glad when I have one of them as a lead unit, they are so much more comfortable than the older conventional cab units, at least while they are still fairly new.

CSX apparently agrees with the previous poster in that they went back and ordered more 4400 hp AC's that are 17,000 lbs. heavier (called "Magnums" by some wags), primarily for coal drag service. They are rated at 10% more tractive effort than a standard AC4400.

[wabash1]

ge rules i dont think so.... you say emd ac are slow well everything ge builds is slow and breaks down and is ready for the scrap yard in 10 years. as far as the dynamic. well they had to have something that worked. but a emd will do the same thing but from 60 mph. a emd will out preform a ge and a older emd will do it even faster.. and dont give me that junk about a ge will pull hard at low speed..... couse a emd wont let you get that slow to haft to pull.... ill take emd units and out run you ge anyday..

[Anonymous]

DUDE, ITS NOT A MATTER OF WHO WILL OUT RUN WHO... YOU KNOW AS WELL AS I DO, YOU CAN GO ONLY AS FAST AS THAT TRAIN IS ALOWED TO GO.. PROFILE RESTRICTIONS AND SLOW ORDERS..NOT FORGETTING THE SPEED LIMET. I HAVE RUN A LOT OF EMDS..OLD AND NEW...I HAVE RUN ALOT OF GES..OLD AND NEW..AND I WILL ALWAYS PUT GE AHEAD OF ANYTHING THAT EMD WILL EVER BUILD... BESIDES...IF YOU REALY WANT TO GET TO THE BRASS TACKS OF IT...IF YOUR A GOOD ENGINEER, YOU WONT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT AN EMD OR GE GETTING YOU THE POINT WHERE YOU HAVE TO PULL SLOW SPEED...GOOD TRAIN HANDLING, AND YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MANTAIN SPEED NO MATTER WHAT POWER YOU HAVE!!!!!BESIDES..WHAT YOU ARE SAYING MIGHT BE TRUE IN SOME AREAS.... BUT ON THE RAIL ROAD I RUN... I NEVER SEE FASTER THEN 40...40 MPH IS MAX SPEED ON THE SUBDIVISONS I WORK ON...JUST REMEMBER...SPEED KILLS PEACHES!!

[wabash1]

well ill take a emd in the lead any day they are just a much better engine than anything ge will build. on are division you start out pulling out of the yard on a 30 mph limit then increase to 35 then to 40 thats when it starts going up hill you can be in #8 with a ge and get down to 10 mph before topping the hill. with a emd never see below 30mph and to the grade and accelerate faster than a ge. as far as speed kills. at 50-60 mph or at 10 mph with a train you can still kill someone. the last person i hit was at 23 mph and they lived. most people like the ge becouse of the wide body cabs. well emd makes them to. i like the standard cab. but that is my prefrance visability is better to me on standard cab.

[favuprailroadfan]

The reason why the railroads hasn't ordered any more 90MAC's is because of software problems and the problems with the prime mover. EMD tried the new engine approach in the new H-engine, but they had troubles working out the bugs in it. UP returned the true 6000HP 90's back to EMD for testing and so they could work them out. But there is another side to this.

EMD went back and devoloped a 12 cylinder H-engine, and called it the SD90MACII. I believe these are currently being tested at Pueblo CO at the AAR testing facility. Now I know there are many differances between GE and EMD. I personally am a EMD fan. I like the old 40-2's, but I love the new 70M's. If EMD can produce something like the 70's and have very much success with them. Why don't they take the same concept and work on the 710 engine that is the power plant for those. Maybe they can punch them a little bit more, but I think they tried that with 75M's and had some trouble. I know they have had there moments with 80MAC's. Why not throw another turbo on it-if that is possible-then maybe they can get 6000HP out of a two cycle motor. Well I bet that you wasn't anticipating a big aurgument over this, but I hope that this will help you out.

Later, Dru

[Anonymous]

OK..MAYBE THE SPEED KILLS PEACHES WAS TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT...BUT ANYWAYS..THE POINT I WAS MAKING IS... WHY PULL BALLS TO THE WALL OUT OF THE HOLE... AND FLY DOWN THE RAIL ROAD..ONLY TO HAVE TO SIT TO YARD YOUR TRAIN ANYWAYS, BESIDES...YOU TALK ABOUT THE SHORTCOMINGS OF GE... LETS GET BACK TO THE DYNAMIC BRAKE ON EMD!!! THAT IS THE BIGGEST GRIPE I HAVE ABOUT ALL EMD LOCOMOTIVES... AND EVEN MORE SO ON THE 70 AND 80 MACS... THEY HAVE WEAKER DYNAMIC BRAKE!!! THEY TAKE LONGER TO SLOW DOWN A TRAIN AT 40MPH..YOU HAVE TO START SLOWING DOWN SOONER WITH THEM BECOUSE OF THE WEAKER BRAKING! SO IF YOU ASK ME...A SLOW OUT TO THE HOLE GE, OR A BAT OUT OF HELL I CANT SLOW DOWN AS FAST AS I WANT TO EMD...ILL TAKE THE GE ANY DAY...!!! I WOULD REATHER GO SLOWER AND STOP..THEN TO GO FAST AND NOT!!!!BESIDES..IF YOU REALY WANT TO SPLIT HAIRS ABOUT IT... IT ALL WORKS OUT IN THE END...YOU GET THE TRAIN OVER THE ROAD WITHOUT DERAILING, BRAKEING SOMETHING..OR I HATE TO SAY IT..KILL SOMEONE...I CALL IT A GOOD DAY..NO MATER WHAT POWER YOUR ON!

[Anonymous]

For the two engineers that were disagreeing about GE and EMD.Have ether one ever hit a 11 yard concrete mixer.Who comes out with the least damage.Talking about the Wide Cabs.

[Anonymous]

DONT KNOW...DONT WANT TO FIND OUT...

[Anonymous]

Dru
What software problems do you speak of on the SD90mac phase 1 and phase 2 6000 Hp units? UP70M's are running above 95% availability. Great numbers.. I don't think GE can touch that!

[Anonymous]

Collisions with the GE and EMD. GE's don't have the best front end for collisions. Not to strong. EMD's have a much more beefed up front end.

Your Friendly Locomotive Builder!

[Anonymous]

as long as i can walk away from a cra***hat is that severe to damage the front end that bad...i dont care what loco im in... but the point of this emd-ge battle was in porfomance on line of road... not so much who will win in a cra***est! its a battle of trackive effort... abily to pull and for me...the ableily to slow down... dynamic brake strength... i still think that ge is a more superior locomotive over anything that emd is putting out now! the only thing that emd has that i like is the cab...it is a bit quiter then a ge, and they have a foot rest under the controle desk, but other then that...im a ge man all the way! and so are most of the conductors i work with...
csx engineer!

[Anonymous]

CSX Engineer.Have you ran between Bostic NC and Charlotte NC.

[favuprailroadfan]

I am not sure what software problems that the 90M's had, but I know that it was just in the phase 1 models. All I know is that EMD built a 12 cylinder version of the H-engine. I haven't heard anything else about these units. Last thing I heard is that the 70M's were running at 98% availibity. And speaking of the 70's, I saw UP 4890 today with the new American flag loco. That is pretty slick looking if you ask me. But that was about 3 months ago. But I'm sure that EMD has worked out the bugs in the phase 1 models. I will do some checking and see what the problems were for sure and I'll let you know. If you find out anything let me know.

Later, Dru

[Anonymous]

Dru
Lets narrow it down:
Phase 1 SD90mac 6000HP
Computers on board:
1. EM2000 - Overall locomotive computer/Watchdog and controller
2. EMDEC - Engine control computer
3. Siemens - Traction control computer
4. Rockwell ICE system - Integrated Cab Electronics computer

Being a smartass....

All these systems must work together, otherwise you have lots of problems. Software has to be reasonable, otherwise you get a lot of nuisance faults and warnings that just bother or make the crew mad
I prefer SD90mac phase 1 locomotives, whether it is the 4300hp or 6000hp variant. FYI re 12H, still under development.

Don

[Anonymous]

Dru
Do you have an email where I can type without the whole internet watching?

Don

[Anonymous]

no..i run between newell pa, and new castle pa, all i run are coal trains...loads out..emptys in...

[favuprailroadfan]

Dear Don, I realize that all computer software has its problems, but on the phase 1, they just couldn't get nothing to work right in the 6000HP version. The 4385HP version are doing just fine. I know that they have built and tested a phase 2 with 12cyl. motor. I have seen it in magazines and in person. Yes I do have an e-mail. I just don't want everybody else writing me, but they want to they can. >[e-mail]

If you happen to hear anything else let me know please.

Later, Dru

[Anonymous]

Dru
The GM92 is in Pueblo right now I believe. Where did you see it at last? About the phase 1 SD90mac, a lot of the problems where engine related. Just like GE, EMD has had its growing pains in development of 6000 HP 4 cylcle engine. The phase 1 6000 hp units delivered to UP use the same locomotive platform as the 4300hp variant. When you look at history, the 710 engine was developed over a long period of time and works quite well. The EMD H-engine needs some more time to perfect.

Don

[favuprailroadfan]

Don,

I will agree with you that the 710 power plant is a good one for EMD. Yes it will take some time to perfect the H engine, but it has been a long time in the running so far and I don't know if they will ever be able to get it perfected. Its has been something like 5 years now. I would figure they would have found out what was wrong with it. If I remember correctly, it has been awhile since I seen it, I believe I saw it in Liberal KS. It may have not been it, but it sure did look like it. But I'm just not sure if EMD can work out the bugs in the phase 1.
Well, I guess I had better go.

Later, Dru

[Anonymous]

Well, the easy answer is sort of. They are too much power, and really are kind of a niche locomotive. Original intent was long haul stack train/manifest where you could put 2 of 'em in place of 3 or 4 units, the problem arose when they weren't as reliable as they needed to be. GE had engine problems, as well as some traction motor and software problems. EMD has had primarily software problems as well as some ride issues. On the UP they sent the EMD's back for software mod's and some other work, the GE's have been getting attention from GE somewhere (Pine Bluff contract shop perhaps?) but they weren't sent back. The EMD's were then assigned to I-5 corridor manifest service where they were apparently working ok, as they are now being assigned to stack trains again (but not in pairs as originally intended, usually with a couple of 70M's). The GE's fixes may not have been quite as robust, as you see them roaming around and not really assigned to anything, you get 'em on grain, manifest, stacks (very occaisionally), even saw one once on a coal train. If I had to guess, you probably won't see any more orders for 6000 horse units for quite a while, and you definately won't see the "convertables" (9043MAC's or the AC4400/6000's) converted up to the 6000 horse engines. Having run both types of units, my preference is the EMD's, the GE's still have that tremendous period where you wonder if they are ever going to load, (the EMD doesn't load as fast as other EMD's, but still a lot faster than the GE), also the EMD got tagged for being bouncy (due in part to the isolated cab), but I would rather bounce than shimmy side to side like the GE's do at speed (above 50 or so).

[favuprailroadfan]

Dear Derek, Where in the world have you been? I have been to Herington twice looking for you and I have yet to see you. Have you guys been that busy? Or have you beeen on the road constantly? Anyways, how has it been going? I'm just wondering where you have been. I see you sometime soon I hope.

Later Dru

[Anonymous]

Hi Ya' Dru,
I've been working on the railroad.... seriously working, every day, sometimes twice a day, until the first of April, then I went back to a KC turn. got tired of the extra board being undermanned. Been doing ok though, how bout you?
The other day was the first day in quit a while I even had time to get on here and see what was up. Had gotten all behind on everything due to no time off. Anyway, take care, see ya' round.

[favuprailroadfan]

Dear Derek, I almost came up there yesterday to see you but we didn't have much time. We have been doing ok. We have our own house. We live on Main St. just down from the tracks about six or seven blocks. So I hear all of them come through. I can go out in my yard and watch them all also. When you mean twice a day. Is that going to KC and back again? or from there to Pratt and back again? I have noticed that haven't been running as many 70's through here. Is that just a normal thing or have they been put in service somewhere else. Well I'm off to other sites. See ya around.

Later, Dru

[Anonymous]

Where else have the 6000HP engines gone lately? I know you guys are thinking in terms of locomotives only. However, EMD has sold 20 6000HP engines to Tidewater. 5 boats are to be equipped with 4 each. Same concept as rail. 4 6000 HP engines turing Main Gens to produce power for the screws. What do you think of that?

Don