mudchicken SD70Dude: C'mon down south to see the resurgence in spring frogs and spring switches. (now that the adjustment issue with the horn on the spring frog is more manageable, new spring frogs are popping up all over)
SD70Dude: C'mon down south to see the resurgence in spring frogs and spring switches. (now that the adjustment issue with the horn on the spring frog is more manageable, new spring frogs are popping up all over)
What, you mean CN is behind the times!? Surprise, surprise, surprise...
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
mudchicken...end of shift quotes that "every switch in the yard" was hard to throw was a bit hard to swallow. (especially when handles on certain ground switches fell to the ground from vertical in a fiew places.)
Don't forget there's a big difference in throwing a switch once or twice and handling every switch on a ladder 20+ times a night. Even if they aren't completely hard to throw, if htere is resistance, that gets old after a while. And all you need to do is get one where the keeper doesn't latch and you make a facing point move....
And hell, you should be wanting to go out to maintain those switches. Keep us all in a job and safe!
I get that your biased on your side. I'm biased towards my side. But there has to be some middle ground.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
mudchickenThe ones that were two boys and a dog tough needed extra attention, something causing that needed to be addressed. (beyond normal adjustment).
A call to our track supervisor usually has the problem fixed in short order. Either that or some 90 weight gear oil, which is what the track supervisor will probably use, anyhow.
Our switches sit all winter, unused. We kinda expect some of them to be a problem in the spring.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 mudchicken (which will always draw out the "hard to throw" whiners) I don't mind the switches that pull hard to "latch." It's those that take two men and a small boy to swing in the first place...
mudchicken (which will always draw out the "hard to throw" whiners)
I don't mind the switches that pull hard to "latch." It's those that take two men and a small boy to swing in the first place...
The ones that were two boys and a dog tough needed extra attention, something causing thatv needed to be addressed. (beyond normal adjustment)
zugmann Just think of the time you could save in yards if you didn't have to stop at every trailing point. And the number of derailments that could be avoided due to run-thru switches. Yeah, yeah, maintenance. Sometimes I think we need to re-run the tables and figure out which really costs more.
Just think of the time you could save in yards if you didn't have to stop at every trailing point. And the number of derailments that could be avoided due to run-thru switches. Yeah, yeah, maintenance. Sometimes I think we need to re-run the tables and figure out which really costs more.
Amen to that. Not sure how it is south of the border, but in Canada a run-thru switch (officially called a Semi-Automatic Switch) is identified by having diamond shaped targets on the mast as opposed to square or rounded ones for a regular hand-operated switch, and they are not allowed to be used on the Main Track.
But unfortunately CN has gone the same overly cautious route of not allowing us to run through them, instead they are to be treated like a normal hand-operated switch and must be lined for the movement before being trailed through. This only came about 5 years ago, after an incident at the Clover Bar Yard on the east side of Edmonton where a yard crew was shoving into a track with the Yardmaster watching their point with a camera. They shoved a wee bit too far and put one truck of the leading tank car through a run-thru switch that was lined against them (note: our rulebook has always required putting at least one full car through the switch to make sure the points lock over securely). The Yardmaster did not want them to block the lead so he told them to back into the clear, but hadn't been watching closely enough to notice that the car hadn't gone completely through the switch. So the crew pulled back and the one end of the tank car stayed in the track while the other end went down the lead. The camera footage subsequently became required viewing material for each class of new hires.
Now on another note here is an unpowered version of swing nose frogs: the Spring Frog. There are uncommon nowadays, but some Main Track hand-operated switches still have them up here. CN is trying to phase them out as they can stick open sometimes thus creating a tiny spot of wide gauge, possibly leading to a derailment.
mudchicken(which will always draw out the "hard to throw" whiners)
What? There is no yellow or orange paint in NORAC land? (GCOR Variable Switch = NORAC Semi-Automatic Switch, Rule 106)... If somebody is buying a Hub#3 or A #5 Rigid ground switch instead of a "Box Switch", Racor 22-P or Hub Safety thinks they are saving $$$, they are sorely mistaken. Maintenance is equal and the unforgiving rigid switch will eventually bite you in the backtracks except at locations where they are mandatory and have a purpose. (all bets are off when you have ice, snow, blowing dirt , junk & sand)...You still have to adjust the things to push the points with some residual force against the stockrail (which will always draw out the "hard to throw" whiners)
Switching leads and backtracks are one thing. Switches leading onto main tracks, sidings and signal territories are quite something else. The Pico Rivera issue involves a yard, a siding also used as a long tail switching lead and a main to siding crossover betwen the ends of the siding. On that intermediate x-over , you went from the CTC main (rigid) to CTC siding (rigid) to facing point yard limit/ dark Bull switch on the east ladder (rigid) with all of the other switches on the ladder being variable)....invariably somebody backed through the bull switch or failed to walk the length of the intermediate crossover and the next train to use either of those switches gets bushwacked.
mudchicken(had issues with certain trainmen (and one really green trainmaster) that somehow thought that ALL ground hub switches were variable - the results were predictable, especially the fingerpointing after the deed was done)
Every trailing point is good for one move.
zugmann All your questions have one answer: Maintenance. The railroads don't want to pay to maintain that extra hardware. Also why most yards don't have run-thruable switches (which are a thing). I've seen the aftermath of what happens when a train hits a powered frog that doesn't throw along with the switch. Made a pretty big mess. All kinds of rules were passed after that incident. Now when given rule 241 (permission past stop signal), you have to approach every switchpoint and powered frog prepared to stop short of.
All your questions have one answer: Maintenance. The railroads don't want to pay to maintain that extra hardware. Also why most yards don't have run-thruable switches (which are a thing).
I've seen the aftermath of what happens when a train hits a powered frog that doesn't throw along with the switch. Made a pretty big mess. All kinds of rules were passed after that incident. Now when given rule 241 (permission past stop signal), you have to approach every switchpoint and powered frog prepared to stop short of.
Part of the game on a switch rod assembly is keeping the switch point in use snug against the stockrail (The thickness of a credit card or piece of paper gap is enough to allow a worn wheel flange to climb and split the switch. Often the "designed to fail" linkage fails when it shouldn't or doesn't fail when it should. The older GRS CTC switch machines experimented with some metallurgy in some key parts (Links) that just did not perform as desired or "set a trap" for following movements, including false clears.
(had issues with certain trainmen (and one really green trainmaster) that somehow thought that ALL ground hub switches were variable - the results were predictable, especially the fingerpointing after the deed was done)
BaltACD ........... Another thing I have never understood - RE the Panhandle, TX incident.Why aren't absolute signalled Control Points fitted with split rail derails that only line to the non-derailing position when a signal is lined over it or the Control Operator lines the derail to a non-derailing position for track car movement. In the Panhandle incident, there would have been one hell of a derailment - but only one train would have been involved - not a head on as actually happened.
Another thing I have never understood - RE the Panhandle, TX incident.Why aren't absolute signalled Control Points fitted with split rail derails that only line to the non-derailing position when a signal is lined over it or the Control Operator lines the derail to a non-derailing position for track car movement. In the Panhandle incident, there would have been one hell of a derailment - but only one train would have been involved - not a head on as actually happened.
I can see several reasons why it hasn't happened. The obvious one is cost. At a double crossover you are now talking about four more switch machines. The switch points will need regular maintenance to keep them in adjustment, and will need periodic replacement or repair just like the frogs and switch points in the turnout. Main line turnouts are a high cost maintenance item compared with normal track.
A less obvious reason is that they will potentially cause more problems than they solve. Minor (though still serious) misjudgements mean a train which is not able to stop until it has passed the signal will now certainly derail. While the derailment may mostly be away from the second track the sudden stop may cause some cars to foul.
Most times the train crew knows that they screwed up and are going to pass the signal. They get on the radio to alert any conflicting trains to stop, and the only consequences are to their employment, and possibly a run-through switch.
mudchicken Same outcome as a split switch derailment...or more expensively, destroying an $18,000 switch machine geared like a swiss watch or it's cheaper hydraulic cousin. Running through a rigid switch usually bends the rod and or elephant ears (transit clips), can possibly trist warp the switch points and pushes the switch stand jumps out of the spike holes. With a switch machine, the switch machine innards get all warped and gears get broken. (plus some really pissed roadmaster and signal supervisor losing whatever sleep & budget they had - Instant FRA reportable, no question about the unit-of-property test.)
Same outcome as a split switch derailment...or more expensively, destroying an $18,000 switch machine geared like a swiss watch or it's cheaper hydraulic cousin.
Running through a rigid switch usually bends the rod and or elephant ears (transit clips), can possibly trist warp the switch points and pushes the switch stand jumps out of the spike holes. With a switch machine, the switch machine innards get all warped and gears get broken. (plus some really pissed roadmaster and signal supervisor losing whatever sleep & budget they had - Instant FRA reportable, no question about the unit-of-property test.)
The one thing I have NEVER understood about power switch machines - why are the constructed so that the entire machine is damaged when run through rather than braking a sacrificial part of nominal value. Why destroy a $18K machine when you can break a $100 part insted and save the rest of the machine.
No matter the value of the part, running through a switch, especially a power switch, is a SERIOUS FRA man failure offense and must be handled accordingly.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
cx500 I suspect the frog is swung be a separate power mechanism, independent of the switch points. If for some reason the switch points are taken off power and operated by hand, then the frog will also have to be hand operated. Otherwise bad things will happen. But I have not seen one; this is just my guess. John
I suspect the frog is swung be a separate power mechanism, independent of the switch points. If for some reason the switch points are taken off power and operated by hand, then the frog will also have to be hand operated. Otherwise bad things will happen.
But I have not seen one; this is just my guess.
John
That is exactly the reason for the signs. Each frog and point machine (the 60mph turnouts have one frog and two point machines) when in hand operation must be operated seperately. The signs are to remind the person hand lining the turnout that the frog also needs to be lined.
Bad things have happened when the frog machine was forgotten.
Jeff
I have the impression that the signs warn anyone who is afoot that the frog may be swung without notice--and I am sure that no one wants to get his foot pinned by a swung frog. Engineers are not so concerned, for they are seldom afoot near one of these switches.
Johnny
I noticed that NBSF has been installing Swing Nose Frogs on its main line between Seattle and Portland. They have been doing a lot of work in the last two years including installing 50 mph cross overs. By each Frog, there is a large sign noting its presence. I understand the value of the Swing Nose Frogs, but why would a locomotive driver need to know they are there? The several that I know say they don't care.
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