Euclid BaltACD Euclid Concrete ties do seem like a viable solution. I wonder why they have decided to revert back to cut spikes/tieplates instead of concrete ties. Concrete ties and wood ties can't effectively be intermixed on a territory. So then I assume that means that it is not a viable option to use concrete ties only on curves as the lag spikes are used.
BaltACD Euclid Concrete ties do seem like a viable solution. I wonder why they have decided to revert back to cut spikes/tieplates instead of concrete ties. Concrete ties and wood ties can't effectively be intermixed on a territory.
Euclid Concrete ties do seem like a viable solution. I wonder why they have decided to revert back to cut spikes/tieplates instead of concrete ties.
Concrete ties do seem like a viable solution. I wonder why they have decided to revert back to cut spikes/tieplates instead of concrete ties.
What can you do today vs. what can you do long term. Wood today, concrete tomorrow or the next year.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Unfortunately, wood ties may not be an option much longer, if the Portland media have their way.
Back in April KGW, the local NBC affiliate, posted this story: http://www.kgw.com/news/investigations/toxic-air-found-in-the-dalles-despite-permit-from-deq/128717185
There have been other stories since, and the Oregon DEQ is reacting to the resulting public pressure. Having lived in Portland for over forty years, I'm fairly certain that it is only a matter of time before AmeriTies West is forced to move, or go out of business. The liberal environmentalists run the state, and they won't be satisified until every business which emits anything into the air or water is forced out!
There's plenty of other sources for wood ties.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
pearfarmer The liberal environmentalists run the state, and they won't be satisified until every business which emits anything into the air or water is forced out!
Yeah, how dare they not let a company pollute air and water with carcinogens as much as they want! That's real freedom! Where's my "Make creosote ties great again!" hat?
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Perhaps the defenders of the freedom to emit deadly pollutants can move into communities around those carcinogenic polluters they love so much? Pearfarmer, your house is waiting, served up with a bottle of Chateau Flint!
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm Perhaps the defenders of the freedom to emit deadly pollutants can move into communities around those carcinogenic polluters they love so much? Pearfarmer, your house is waiting, served up with a bottle of Chateau Flint!
The problem with these people is that they don't want anything in their back yard, but try to take away the fruits of those things they don't want in their back yard.
That electric car still requires power. Can't make it using fossil fuels, for sure, nuclear power is a definite no-no, dams ruin the waterways, and "industrial" wind turbines are ugly and ruin the vistas. Maybe the electricity fairy knows how to make power without having any "side effects..."
Can't wear clothes made from synthetics (mostly fossil-based), nor animal based (maltreatment and all that). I suppose that leaves cotton, but you either have to use slave labor or fossil-fueled equipment to harvest it.
The list goes on.
tree68 schlimm Perhaps the defenders of the freedom to emit deadly pollutants can move into communities around those carcinogenic polluters they love so much? Pearfarmer, your house is waiting, served up with a bottle of Chateau Flint! The problem with these people is that they don't want anything in their back yard, but try to take away the fruits of those things they don't want in their back yard. That electric car still requires power. Can't make it using fossil fuels, for sure, nuclear power is a definite no-no, dams ruin the waterways, and "industrial" wind turbines are ugly and ruin the vistas. Maybe the electricity fairy knows how to make power without having any "side effects..." Can't wear clothes made from synthetics (mostly fossil-based), nor animal based (maltreatment and all that). I suppose that leaves cotton, but you either have to use slave labor or fossil-fueled equipment to harvest it. The list goes on.
Johnny
DeggestyAnd, the wind turbines also kill birds.
That, too. Instruments of the devil, I tell you!
Maybe because concrete ties aren't the panacea they are made out to be.
Jeff
pearfarmer Unfortunately, wood ties may not be an option much longer, if the Portland media have their way. Back in April KGW, the local NBC affiliate, posted this story: http://www.kgw.com/news/investigations/toxic-air-found-in-the-dalles-despite-permit-from-deq/128717185 There have been other stories since, and the Oregon DEQ is reacting to the resulting public pressure. Having lived in Portland for over forty years, I'm fairly certain that it is only a matter of time before AmeriTies West is forced to move, or go out of business. The liberal environmentalists run the state, and they won't be satisified until every business which emits anything into the air or water is forced out!
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I've been seeing a lot more metal, concrete, and non-creosote treated wood ties being used.
I'm not really upset by that.
Are the non-creosote ties green treated, or brown treated with 1000 slotted holes punched into them?
schlimmPearfarmer, your house is waiting, served up with a bottle of Chateau Flint!
Are you making fun of the Latrobe valley? Pittsburgh hasn't been bad since the '80s!
Overmod schlimm Are you making fun of the Latrobe valley? Pittsburgh hasn't been bad since the '80s!
schlimm
Didn't Rolling Rock beer come from Latrobe?
Excerpt from “Cross-Tie Forms and Rail Fastenings, with Special Reference to Treated Timbers” by Hermann Von Schrenk (1904)
Of several devices advocated as a track fastening, the most promising one is the screw-spike. The chief advantage which the screw-spike has over the ordinary spike is that, to a large extent, it is put in under circumstances which prevent the mechanical injury to the tie at the time, and when it is once put in it holds the rail to the tie so firmly that a large part of the wear is done away with. It is hardly necessary to explain in detail at this point why a screw is so much better able to withstand a vertical pull than a spike. When in position a screw firmly clamps the base of the rail against the wood, and thereby causes the rail and the tie to act as one body when a load is passing over the rail. While it is not possible to absolutely prevent the sawing action of the rail even when held with a screw-spike, nevertheless the sawing action is reduced to a minimum by the use of other devices, such as the tie-plates shown below. The necessity for a fastening such as the screw-spike gives has been realized for some years, and the sentiment is well expressed by Doctor Dudley in the following words:
We need better rail fastenings to screw the rails to the cross-ties than our ordinary spikes. This is for the purpose of reducing the looseness of the rail on the cross-tie. This will lessen the strain in the rails and also the injury to the permanent way. With the broad-top rails which are used in our tracks we make the wheel treads, as they pass over the rails, hold them in a vertical position, and do not depend as much upon the spike for the lateral stability as upon the proper distribution of the weights under the moving wheel loads. With the round-topped rails this statement does not apply, as in that case the lateral stability must be secured by the spike or chair. While the spike forms what may be termed a secure fastening, with our broad-topped rails it is not rigid. The American theory and practice of securing the combined stability for the instant of the passage of the train is more by the construction of our locomotives and rolling stock than pertains elsewhere in the world. With a more efficient rail fastening and treated cross-ties the combined stability between the locomotive and the permanent way could be increased.
It is here asserted that a more secure attachment of the rail to the tie would not only prevent wear of the tie and of the wood around the spike, but would also increase the general stability of the track. The passage of the load over rails securely fastened to the tie would cause the whole body of the track to move in unison, and the up-and-down motion of the rails would be reduced to a minimum.
In view of the general interest in fastenings, and in view of the tests now in progress with screw-spikes, it may be of interest to discuss at some length the past and present use of the screw-spike in other countries.
The question of the fixation of rails to wooden ties has occupied the attention of European engineers for many years. At the meeting of the International Railway Congress at St. Petersburg in 1885, and again at the meeting of the same congress at Paris in 1895, various forms of rail fastenings were discussed with a good deal of interest. The first use of the screw in its simplest form was probably in Germany, where an extremely simple nail modified so as to approach a screw form was used on the railways of the Grand Duchy of Baden before 1860 (fig. 24). This simple screw was driven into the tie with a sledge hammer, much as a nail-spike is driven into the wood. It is interesting to note in this connection that a similar form (fig. 25) has recently been contrived and patented in this country. It will be seen that it is based on almost the same idea as the old screw-nail used in Baden. A modified lag screw used on the Kansas Pacific Railroad in 1870 is shown in fig. 26.
https://archive.org/stream/crosstieformsrai50vons#page/n3/mode/2up
This has been out for a while, but I have not seen this particular conclusion before. Sarah Feinberg weighs in with some fairly specific conclusions about what ECP brakes would have done to mitigate the damage:
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/feds-railroad-failed-to-maintain-track-where-oil-train-derailed-burned/
From the article:
Federal investigators note that these damaged bolts can be difficult to spot by some types of track surveillance.
But the report found they can be detected by walking inspections “combined with indications of uneven rail wear and are “critically important to resolve quickly.” And it faults Union Pacific for not maintaining the track and track equipment.
“We feel like it could have been prevented with closer inspections, better maintenance,” Federal Railroad Administrator Sarah Feinberg told the AP.
At the time of the accident, Union Pacific officials said the train was traveling at 25 mph. The Federal Railroad Administration said it has now posted a 10 mph speed restriction through Mosier.
The report said the Federal Railroad Administration is “evaluating potential enforcement actions, including violations, and other actions to ensure Union Pacific’s compliance with applicable safety regulations.”
The report also found that advanced electronic brakes proposed by regulators could have made the derailment less severe, Feinberg said. The brakes could have reduced — by two — the number of cars that derailed and prevented the one that first burst into flames from being punctured, officials said.
“We’re talking about upgrading a brake system that is from the Civil War era,” Feinberg said. “It’s not too much to ask these companies to improve their braking systems in the event of an accident so fewer cars are derailing.”
EuclidThis has been out for a while, but I have not seen this particular conclusion before. Sarah Feinberg weighs in with some fairly specific conclusions about what ECP brakes would have done to mitigate the damage: http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/feds-railroad-failed-to-maintain-track-where-oil-train-derailed-burned/ From the article: Federal investigators note that these damaged bolts can be difficult to spot by some types of track surveillance. But the report found they can be detected by walking inspections “combined with indications of uneven rail wear and are “critically important to resolve quickly.” And it faults Union Pacific for not maintaining the track and track equipment. “We feel like it could have been prevented with closer inspections, better maintenance,” Federal Railroad Administrator Sarah Feinberg told the AP. At the time of the accident, Union Pacific officials said the train was traveling at 25 mph. The Federal Railroad Administration said it has now posted a 10 mph speed restriction through Mosier. The report said the Federal Railroad Administration is “evaluating potential enforcement actions, including violations, and other actions to ensure Union Pacific’s compliance with applicable safety regulations.” The report also found that advanced electronic brakes proposed by regulators could have made the derailment less severe, Feinberg said. The brakes could have reduced — by two — the number of cars that derailed and prevented the one that first burst into flames from being punctured, officials said. “We’re talking about upgrading a brake system that is from the Civil War era,” Feinberg said. “It’s not too much to ask these companies to improve their braking systems in the event of an accident so fewer cars are derailing.”
And even when you add all the electonics to make ECP work - the system is still Civil War era in being air powered - just more complex and failable and harder to troubleshoot when anomilies occurr.
BaltACDAnd even when you add all the electonics to make ECP work - the system is still Civil War era in being air powered - just more complex and failable and harder to troubleshoot when anomilies occurr.
I think ECP works, and is not Civil War era just because it uses air. I believe that the workability issue is one of those red herrings. The real objection is cost, and also the dire threat of a universal mandate once the camel's nose is under the tent.
Sarah Feinberg says ECP brakes would have prevented the breach and the fire at the Mosier wreck and limited the number of derailed cars to 14 instead of 16.
Euclid BaltACD And even when you add all the electonics to make ECP work - the system is still Civil War era in being air powered - just more complex and failable and harder to troubleshoot when anomilies occurr. I think ECP works, and is not Civil War era just because it uses air. I believe that the workability issue is one of those red herrings. The real objection is cost, and also the dire threat of a universal mandate once the camel's nose is under the tent. Sarah Feinberg says ECP brakes would have prevented the breach and the fire at the Mosier wreck and limited the number of derailed cars to 14 instead of 16.
BaltACD And even when you add all the electonics to make ECP work - the system is still Civil War era in being air powered - just more complex and failable and harder to troubleshoot when anomilies occurr.
And of course if air brake expert Feinberg says it it must be true. Last I knew FRA did not have a validated computer model of ECP brakes, perhaps they used one of their pet consultants like Ensco.
and if they were using TADS somehow they would need AAR's permission to do so legally.
Deleted.
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Euclid“We’re talking about upgrading a brake system that is from the Civil War era,” Feinberg said. “It’s not too much to ask these companies to improve their braking systems in the event of an accident so fewer cars are derailing.”
This statement bugs me. No improvements have been made since the Civil War? Now I'm worried about wheels; they've been around for thousands of years.
Paul of Covington Euclid “We’re talking about upgrading a brake system that is from the Civil War era,” Feinberg said. “It’s not too much to ask these companies to improve their braking systems in the event of an accident so fewer cars are derailing.”
Euclid “We’re talking about upgrading a brake system that is from the Civil War era,” Feinberg said. “It’s not too much to ask these companies to improve their braking systems in the event of an accident so fewer cars are derailing.”
Yes, it bugs me too. The statement reflects disdain and contempt. I think it speaks of an attitude toward industry that she shares and is reflecting from a larger source. It is a far different attitude than she might express toward companies that are developing driverless cars, for example.
BuslistLast I knew FRA did not have a validated computer model of ECP brakes, perhaps they used one of their pet consultants like Ensco.
They can save the consultant's fee. We have a (self appointed) expert on all things railroad right here on the forum, ECP brakes and track maintenance included.
Norm
It isn't true, either. Westinghouse's quick-action automatic brake wasn't invented until 1887, and there have been substantial improvements since.
Buslist Euclid Sarah Feinberg says ECP brakes would have prevented the breach and the fire at the Mosier wreck and limited the number of derailed cars to 14 instead of 16. And of course if air brake expert Feinberg says it it must be true. Last I knew FRA did not have a validated computer model of ECP brakes, perhaps they used one of their pet consultants like Ensco.
Euclid Sarah Feinberg says ECP brakes would have prevented the breach and the fire at the Mosier wreck and limited the number of derailed cars to 14 instead of 16.
Here's a little off topic story on the technical expertise of one FRA administrator. I happened to be at a meeting between the FRA and the Acela consortium while the Acelas were being commissioned. There were some issues with the lateral curving loads on the power car trucks. FRA wanted the loads at a more reasonable level before they would approve the train sets for service. A North American standard vehicle dynamics computer model had been set up to assist the builders to assess the result of various modifications to the curving performance of the power cars. In their rush to get things approved the consortium would make several changes at a time. The danger being that you had a hard time figuring out what change did what. In fact one change might have a detrimental effect and offset the positive effect of another.
OK they made a series of changes that got them into the Green zone based on field measurements. The FRA. administrator (I'll let you get out the calendar to figure out who it was). The Administrator maintained that FRA didn't care what the field measurements were. Until the model showed no problems FRA would not approve the train sets. No amount of arguing that the model is only to predict real world performance, it was the real world performance that caused excessive rail wear or derailments etc. No amount of expert opinion would change FRA's mind.
From the same article above describing the effect ECP brakes would have had. This part talks about the role of wood ties versus concrete and the BNSF versus UP methods of securement of rails on curves:
https://railroadartifactpreservation.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/queens-crossing-business-plan-v9-pdf.pdf
Quote from the link:
The lag bolts used at the Mosier site are called rectangular timber coach screws, according to the Oregon Transportation Department, and are typically used on curved tracks where wood is used.
On the Oregon side of the gorge, Union Pacific is replacing these fasteners with a “newer generation of a heavier duty bolt,” said Justin Jacobs, a company spokesman. Union Pacific also has been checking other locations, and replacing the bolts where necessary.
On BNSF track on the Washington side of the gorge, spokesman Gus Melonas said, the railway typically uses concrete, rather than wooden, ties in curves of more than 2 degrees. Timber coach screws are not used to secure such ties, Melonas said.
BuslistThe FRA. administrator (I'll let you get out the calendar to figure out who it was).
So sometime between Oct. 1994 and March 1996? Who?
Euclid From the same article above describing the effect ECP brakes would have had. This part talks about the role of wood ties versus concrete and the BNSF versus UP methods of securement of rails on curves: https://railroadartifactpreservation.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/queens-crossing-business-plan-v9-pdf.pdf Quote from the link: The lag bolts used at the Mosier site are called rectangular timber coach screws, according to the Oregon Transportation Department, and are typically used on curved tracks where wood is used. On the Oregon side of the gorge, Union Pacific is replacing these fasteners with a “newer generation of a heavier duty bolt,” said Justin Jacobs, a company spokesman. Union Pacific also has been checking other locations, and replacing the bolts where necessary. On BNSF track on the Washington side of the gorge, spokesman Gus Melonas said, the railway typically uses concrete, rather than wooden, ties in curves of more than 2 degrees. Timber coach screws are not used to secure such ties, Melonas said.
Check your link. It was to Queen's Crossing's business plan. No mention of ties that I saw.
Yes that was the wrong link. Here is the right one:
Spikes or "A newer generation of heavier duty bolt"?
Interest link for quotes:
http://trooclick.com/whosaidwhat/railroad-blamed-for-fiery-oil-train-derailment-284201
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