How Are Articulated Cars Counted?

[edblysard]

 I work an assigned job, regular crew members and hours....my engineer almost always responds to the rhythm and cadence of my voice as I count down, he hears the car counts, but respond to the tone of what I am saying more often than not.

So long as you are consistent, even if your car count is long, or short, as long as it is always the same, it works.

Like dancing with a favorite partner, you both learn how the other is going to perform.

[tree68]

jeffhergert

Some guys will look at the given distance and see X amount of cars, some one else Y amount of cars.  The more you work with a specific person, the more you get to know how they view things.

Since we work almost exclusively with passenger cars, that's the length we generally use.  I generally cheat a bit.  We run on stick rail, so two sticks is about a car.  Even if it's off a bit, I'm still fairly consistent.

But there are those folks...

[jeffhergert]

zugmann

 

edblysard

t is easier to say "come on back two more", or "stop 'em in two more" , which is around 100 feet, and makes more sense than trying to tell him to shove back "one articulated auto rack"....he has no real benchmark to judge how long an articulated car is, but I promise you he knows within a few feet how far "two cars more" is.

 

 

I've had conductors on intermodal trains count me down by saying things like "10 more numbers". Well,  10 more numbers can be anywhere from 10 buckets (singles) to 50 buckets.  Maybe even 60.  Not really helpful.

 

 

For purposes of car counts when pulling down to a specific point, such as where the conductor is going to make a cut, most just count every well or platform as one car.  In such a case those articulated auto racks usually would be counted as one car. 

When giving car counts for distance when shoving, most figure using a 50 or 60 foot car.  Sometimes, a conductor might say something like "two big ones."  A "big one" meaning the size of an autorack, about 90 feet.  Distance can be a bit subjective when shoving.  Some guys will look at the given distance and see X amount of cars, some one else Y amount of cars.  The more you work with a specific person, the more you get to know how they view things.

Jeff

[Redore]

Missabe, and presumably CN, count their drawbar coupled mini quad ore car sets as four cars.  These are not true articulated cars, though.

[zugmann]

edblysard

t is easier to say "come on back two more", or "stop 'em in two more" , which is around 100 feet, and makes more sense than trying to tell him to shove back "one articulated auto rack"....he has no real benchmark to judge how long an articulated car is, but I promise you he knows within a few feet how far "two cars more" is.

I've had conductors on intermodal trains count me down by saying things like "10 more numbers". Well,  10 more numbers can be anywhere from 10 buckets (singles) to 50 buckets.  Maybe even 60.  Not really helpful.

 

[cefinkjr]

CandOforprogress2

or this weird contraption-

http://cprailmmsub.blogspot.com/2012/07/unusual-car-articulated-hopper-cn-39800.html

Now this one, I'd say take your pick:

• One articulated car.
• Two cars to indicate length (although the individual cars don't look to be much over 40')
• Who knows?

The model builder, Jim Stanitz, and I are apparently soul brothers.  I've always had this urge to kit-bash a GP-30 cab onto the running gear and superstructure of an SD-45 to create an SD-30.  Then I'd sit back and listen to the nitpickers telling me that the XYZ RR (for which I decorated it) never had an SD-30 or that the prototype had more louvers under the cab or fewer doors on the long hood.

[cefinkjr]

CandOforprogress2

What do you do with this monster-

http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/tanktrain/CD-tanktrain.jpg

Since they are only (semi-)permanently coupled separable tank cars with two trucks each, I'd say just count 'em.

[CandOforprogress2]

or this weird contraption-

http://cprailmmsub.blogspot.com/2012/07/unusual-car-articulated-hopper-cn-39800.html

[CandOforprogress2]

What do you do with this monster-

http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/tanktrain/CD-tanktrain.jpg

[Falcon48]

mudchicken

BNSF Lists had subsets A-E with the car number showing the container (sea cans in the well) or trailer (spine cars) on the list with extra (blank) lines.

 

  Articulated well cars nearly always carrry the same car number for all platforms in the set.  The end units are designated A and B (I believe the "B" unit is the one with the brake cylinder and associated apparatus, but don't hold me to that).  The middle units are designated C-D-E, depending on the number of platforms in the set.  Permanently coupled sets (in other words, non-articulated platforms connected by solid drawbars) will typically use the same kind of numbering. 

 

However, the answer of how the cars are counted depends on another question - why do you want to know?  If you're worried about train handling and braking, you may count them one way (probably treating each platform as, essentially, an individual car).  If, on the other hand, you want to know in order to properly apply joint facility rates and car hire, you'll probably count all platforms in an articulated (or drawbar) car as a single unit.   

[dehusman]

UP counts platforms for an articulated intermodal car. 

[M636C]

CShaveRR

For braking purposes, you become worried about the number of brake cylinders, and things start to get interesting.  A two-unit auto rack has two cylinders (and only shows up as one car on the sheets).  A three-unit articulated well car has two cylinders, four trucks.  A three-unit drawbar-connected well car has six trucks, three cylinders (same as a five-pack articulated car).  You have to know the difference...if you miss one in an inspection or when bleeding off a train, you might be in trouble.  

 

I am a little surprised that so many cars still have a single brake cylinder per car (or per articulated unit). I learnt my trade, such as it is, in the Western Australian Pilbara where every car had four brake cylinders, two per truck, in the form of Wabcopac truck mounted brake equipment. In an area where labour costs were more than double the national average, just unscrewing the air hose to remove a truck was a good move.

 

Back in the rest of the country more recent single cylinder per truck designs (which look like something I wouldn't want to think about working on under a car) have become much more common.

 

But the point I was thinking about was that from a braking point of view it isn't the number of cylinders but the number of triple valves (or in this country the number of ECP controllers) per train. Our five packs would usually have two triple valves, and the sequential delay in application or release is due to the number of triple valves, not the number of brake cylinders.

 

Another point is whether the car has a single number or multiple numbers. Pacific National (whose intermodal and bulk mineral divisions are well known as haing different ideas on nearly anything) number all intermodal articulated and bar coupled vehicles as single cars while every coal hopper in bar coupled sets of eight, seven, four or two have individual numbers, whether or not  it has a triple valve.

 

On Saturday, we were able to follow 7SP3 back the other way, since it was running about six hours late. This had more single cars than 4PS6, including six box cars (known locally as louvre vans since they are well ventilated) operated for one forwarder in Western Australia. But the vehicle that drew my attention was a single 40 feet well car RRWY 7263J. It had started life as part of a bar coupled five pack type AQWY numbered from 6001.  It was found that 40 feet wells were a bit limiting, since 48 feet and longer containers could only be loaded on the upper level. Some of these were broken up into single cars, one keeping the number such as "6004" and the remainder getting new numbers in the 72xx series in use for new cars. I guess a lot of new triple valves were fitted, along with the couplers.

 

M636C 

[mudchicken]

BNSF Lists had subsets A-E with the car number showing the container (sea cans in the well) or trailer (spine cars) on the list with extra (blank) lines.

[jeffhergert]

Like Carl said, our train lists treat each platform of multi-platform stack cars separately.  Counting each well as a "car."  Multi-platform spine cars on the otherhand, show up as one car.  Both are identified as being multi-platform cars.

Jeff

[edblysard]

  On paper, in train sheets and switch list, a 5 pack, or an older 3 set well car is counted as 1 car, as are articulated auto racks.

In real life, when handling these cars in movements, shoves, switching, the guys on the ground will generally, when giving car counts to the engineer, count them as 5, 3 or 2 cars...we use the standard 50 (approximately) covered hopper as a normal car length, so an articulated auto rack will be counted as two car lengths....remember, a lot of the time the engineer can not see the end of the train, he can only go with the distance given him via radio or hand signal...it is easier to say "come on back two more", or "stop 'em in two more"  , which is around 100 feet, and makes more sense than trying to tell him to shove back "one articulated auto rack"....he has no real benchmark to judge how long an articulated car is, but I promise you he knows within a few feet how far "two cars more" is.

[cefinkjr]

After those answers to my question, I'm REALLY confused.  Carl's answer was probably the most accurate: "It ... depends." 

As for M636C's answer from Down Under, I am reminded of John Armstrong's description of British Rail as "Just the same but different."

[tree68]

BaltACD

Multiple platform stack cars are counted as 1 car.  A '5 packer' may have a car length of 300 feet and 12 axles.  You can have a 20 car train that is 6000 feet long or a 40 car 12000 foot train.

I like that the defect detectors count axles.  You still have the finagle factor of articulated cars, but you get an idea of the size of the train. 

[BaltACD]

CShaveRR

It really depends on whom you ask.

Balt says it's one car...that works for the people selling the business--get as much into (or onto) one car as you can.

When stack cars would show up in our hump shoves, each well or platform held a spot on our sheets.  (Don't worry...as long as I was around, you can bet everything was handled properly!)

For braking purposes, you become worried about the number of brake cylinders, and things start to get interesting.  A two-unit auto rack has two cylinders (and only shows up as one car on the sheets).  A three-unit articulated well car has two cylinders, four trucks.  A three-unit drawbar-connected well car has six trucks, three cylinders (same as a five-pack articulated car).  You have to know the difference...if you miss one in an inspection or when bleeding off a train, you might be in trouble. 

UMLER knows all and supplies the relevant data as necessary for operations in calculating operative brakes and other operations considerations.

[CShaveRR]

It really depends on whom you ask.

Balt says it's one car...that works for the people selling the business--get as much into (or onto) one car as you can.

When stack cars would show up in our hump shoves, each well or platform held a spot on our sheets.  (Don't worry...as long as I was around, you can bet everything was handled properly!)

For braking purposes, you become worried about the number of brake cylinders, and things start to get interesting.  A two-unit auto rack has two cylinders (and only shows up as one car on the sheets).  A three-unit articulated well car has two cylinders, four trucks.  A three-unit drawbar-connected well car has six trucks, three cylinders (same as a five-pack articulated car).  You have to know the difference...if you miss one in an inspection or when bleeding off a train, you might be in trouble.  

[M636C]

Last Saturday a friend and I were photographing Pacific National train 4PS6 from Perth Western Australia to Sydney New South Wales, so Indian Ocean To Pacific Ocean. The 4 indicates the day of departure (Wednesday) and it arrived Saturday afternoon.

Counting platforms, there were 93 vehicles whch we estimated as 1.8 km, so about 1.1 miles long. This is the limit for current sidings on the trans Australian line. We followed it up grade to the crest of the dividing range, on double track.

The "3" were two 63 feet container flats and one 80 feet container flat. The "90" were 17 five pack single level articulated cars, mainly with two 40 feet end platforms and three 48 feet platforms and one set of five bar coupled 48 feet weel cars loaded with single containers.

Double stacking isn't permitted for the last 500 miles in the East owing to restrictive tunnels.

Axle loads are limited to 22 tons, so well sets are generally bar coupled to avoid overloading articulated axles.

But the manifest of the train showed 21 vehicles, 18 five packs and three single wagons.

M636C

[BaltACD]

Multiple platform stack cars are counted as 1 car.  A '5 packer' may have a car length of 300 feet and 12 axles.  You can have a 20 car train that is 6000 feet long or a 40 car 12000 foot train.

[cefinkjr]

Train sheets and other documents have traditionally shown loads/empties for each train with those being the number of loaded and empty cars in the train.  I just watched two BNSF trains crossing the diamonds at Rochelle and, since I caught the head end for once, old habits kicked in and I started counting cars.  The first train was a manifest freight (116? cars) and was no problem.  The second, though, was a stack train with articulated well cars and, just for good measure, a dozen or so articulated automobile carriers on the rear.  Is a five-unit articulated well car one car or five?  And all of these automobile carriers were two articulated units; one each or two?

I get more confused every day.