This may be a good idea just one less item to go wrong. Know some will probably think it dunbing down but this poster for one would hate to memorize all the road speed limits from here to ??
http://www.progressiverailroading.com/labor/news/Rail-unions-petition-FRA-for-uniform-speed-signs--46988
Unlike driving on the highway, where you might end up virtually anywhere, routes on the railroad are necessarily limited.
All appropriate speeds are laid out in the employee timetable. Temporary changes are laid out in bulletin orders and the like. Sometimes signs are posted, sometimes just colored "flags" to indicate where the restrictions start and end.
You say you would hate to have to learn all the speed limits along a line, but I'll bet that you know all of the speed limits along a route you travel on a regular basis. Crews need to be qualified on any territory they run, which includes speeds.
OTOH, standardization is hardly a bad thing. Where speed signs are called for, there's no reason why they shouldn't all be the same.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Probably a good idea. Only caveat would be the RR shouldn't be held responsible if one gets removed by vandalism and something bad occured. Primary responsibility needs to remain on the crew.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I have contended for years that if rail lines were 'properly signed', qualification would be a matter of taking appropriate actions as indicated by the signs.
In our auotmobiles, we don't need to be 'qualified' on the route from New York to Chicago or any other point in the country - just follow the road signs.
I understand that train handling and automotible handling are 'worlds apart', however, if adequate signage is errected that indicates the situation locomotive engineers will be facing in the next serveral miles, his training as an engineer should allow him to knowledgeably cope with the up coming territory.
Any signage should be standardized among all carriers. Signs should signify a single function ONLY. (on my carrier temporary speed signs and work limit signs are visually the same - train messages identify which is which - which I think is an accident waiting to happen)
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
In my corner of the world, permanent speed restriction signs are 2500 feet in advance of the restriction. For some trains in some locations, that's not enough warning to slow down for the restriction, using good train handling techniques. You still need to know where the speed restrictions are, which is why we still carry time tables and supplements thereto.
Jeff
Photos show that BNSF uses speed signs on the PDX - SEA route with three speeds shown - Talgo, Passenger, Freight. Especially for that route Amtrak engineers may operate a Talgo Cascades one day and Starlight another.
There is one place near me that there are permanent speed signs posted. It's through a small town with a couple of tight reverse curves and a diamond crossing at a very shallow angle.
Norm
And just how would any carrier post speed limit signs through an extended junction or interlocking where different routes may have different speed limits?
CSSHEGEWISCH And just how would any carrier post speed limit signs through an extended junction or interlocking where different routes may have different speed limits?
Johnny
DeggestySpeed signaling?
That would be your answer...
I suppose it would be possible to have actual speeds displayed (using digital signs) at signalled interlockings - but that's just one more thing to fail. Paper has a pretty high reliability factor...
EuclidSpeed limit signs seem like a reasonable safety backup. As I recall, the Amtrak wreck in Philadelphia involved a slow curve that had no sign indicating a speed reduction. A simple sign might have saved the day.
In order to be effective, the preliminary warning sign for the reduced speed has to be far enough out for a train to be able to slow from the existing speed limit to the reduced speed limit. And that can vary, depending on actual speed and the handling characteristics of the specific train.
Jeff indicates that signs on his railroad are at 2500' - slightly less than a half mile. At 70 MPH, that's about 20 seconds, give or take. Not much to work with if you're running a train of any size.
I think CSX puts the initial warning sign for slow orders a mile out.
I don't recall the speeds involved in the approach to the Philly incident, but passing a 3'x4' sign at 70 MPH without seeing it would not be out of the question. People miss larger signs on the highway...
Most existing railroad speed signs are a fraction of the size of highway speed signs. Given the amount of vandalism (including bullet holes) I see on existing railroad signs, bigger signs would simply be bigger targets.
That doesn't mean I'm against the idea. Controls are in place that should cover most situations. Having a standard (rather like the MUTCD), though, would be a good thing.
I understand that the sign for the curve would need to be far enough out to give time to slow down. For the Amtrak wreck I was just thinking about the theory that the engineer was lost and did not realize it. So a sign might have made the difference, although, I agree that there is no guarantee that an engineer will see the sign. However, in the case of a curve where a failure to abruptly slow way down would cause a wreck, I am rather surprised that they would not have a sign there just as a bit of backup assurance.
Apparently the railroad companies resist the call for speed limit signs.
I was going to respond to some of these comments, but when I re-read the link in the OP, I realized that I don't understand what's happening.
"The SMART Transportation Division and the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen have submitted a petition to the Federal Railroad Administration for a rulemaking that mandates uniform warning speed signs in advance of a permanent speed restriction, union officials announced yesterday.Some railroads have started removing these signs, which creates a hazard for operating crews and the public, according to the petition."
It says that existing signs are being removed. What is the logic behind this, just saving a few bucks in maintenance?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
This thing is no win. No matter what evolves, somebody is not gonna be happy. Pre-merger railroad standards are in conflict with current railroad standards....It's been going on since Penn Central (Red Team vs. Green Team stuff)....no matter who prevails, it's gonna be different to somebody and somebody will get their toes stepped-on, even on the same side of the argument.. As Jeff hinted, the current UP standard isn't the same as old CNW's and so on.....(There used to be incremental distances based on speed for whistle posts and speed boards, then the trial lawyers got to weasel their way in.)
pre-Staggers, the railroads had engineering departments with flexibility to make sure where the signs belonged and they had B&B crews to maintain what was damaged, vandalized or destroyed by passing equipment....not any more. the things move around and while GCOR/NORAC are supposed to be standard, things vary from road to road. (Signal aspects vary - remember the Chicago Amtrak incident?)
Hardly the first such incident of this. The skyscraper mileposts on the Cotton Rock came from a similar such nonsense decision/complaint.
On the ex-SP lines, they may still maintain the old SP sign and location standard for permanent speed restrictions. (They maintained the signs 2 miles in advance of the speed restriction.) At least they are still in the special instructions. I'm sure they will eventually go away.
I noticed the old SP also had a sign for Diverging Route speed restrictions. Something that was discussed previously.
This poster can imagine the Chicago mess with all the different RRs that are intertwined with trackage rights getting a little confused. Look at the RRs that the Cardinal / Hoosier traverses. As well Amtrak engineers in CHI may be qualified on several routes ?
While the longering distances seem better, if they are too long there is the possibiliy that speed restrictions can overlap.
mp10.1 to mp 10.3 30 mph
mp 10.3 to mp 10.7 45 mph
In that case, it the warning signs are an engineer would pass the first reduce speed sign , then pass the second reduce speed sign before he reaches the first speed restriction. With longer distances there will be speed overlaps. In addition there may be overlaps with junctions, etc. At mp 9.8 the Bess subdiv joins the Anna sub. There is a 60 mph speed restriction at mp .5 on the Bess Sub. At a one mile warning, the reduce speed sign will be on the Anna sub, .5 mile before the junction. It will be irrelevant for the Anna sub trains and only apply for the trains taking the Bess sub. With one mile warning distances, including it with the previous example the train crew would go by a 30 mph sign at mp 9.1 and at mp 9.3 there will be both a 45 and 60 mph speed restriction. This type of situation will definitely happen in areas like Chicago.
The law requires a 1 mile warning disatnce. The restriction is at mp 20. The railroad has a bridge at mp 19. So they put the sign at one end of the bridge or the other (either 5000 or 5600 feet from the restriction). A FRA inspector fines them for not having the sign the proper distance from the restriction.
Local vandals steal or tag a speed restriction sign so its completely obscured. The FRA fines the railroad for not having proper signage visible.
None of these are insurmountable, but have to be considered before the laws or written. Congress often doesn't understand the situations such as above (witness the PTC debacle) and will have to consider all the possibilities. Its never as simple as it seems.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
In the current (Feb. 2016) issue of Trains, in the "Passenger" section (pg. 22), in the article titled "Finding Speed for 'Piedmonts' ", it says there are "never-ending" speed changes, about every half-mile for 34 miles.
- Paul North.
Paul_D_North_JrIn the current (Feb. 2016) issue of Trains, in the "Passenger" section (pg. 22), in the article titled "Finding Speed for 'Piedmonts' ", it says there are "never-ending" speed changes, about every half-mile for 34 miles.
We have stretches of railroad like that. 30-35-30-40-45-30-35 etc. in a 3 mile stretch (or so).
Most guys/gals just keep it simple and go 30 the whole stretch. Unless you have a small trailer train and are able to ramp your speed up and down easily.
It's pretty easy to remember your speeds, but it never hurts to have them written down somewhere for easy reference. Still, you really don't want to be dependent on signs that can be knocked down, stolen, covered in snow, or missed. And there's a world of differnce between running a 2000 ton intermodal and a 18,000 ton coal drag. No substitute exists for knowing your territory and train.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann No substitute exists for knowing your territory and train.
And then there's the profile, and how your train will handle over it...
WHat if, instead of a big target for gunners and taggers, the speed info (and all else of interest to a passing engineer) was encoded on a reader chip (like the ones on rolling stock) to be read by a sensor on the locomotive. Instead of something outside, the flat screen would be in the cab, and possibly accompanied by sound effects. In the meantime, the big attractive vandal target would be replaced by a little grey thing about the size of a pack of cigarettes - on the ties, not up in the air.
Costly to implement? Probably moreso than ordinary signs. But far less subject to damage, which should save on future maintenance.
Just a passing thought
Chuck (Occasional Science Fiction author)
tree68 zugmann No substitute exists for knowing your territory and train. And then there's the profile, and how your train will handle over it...
Also the profile of the train. I included both in knowing train & terrotiry.
tomikawaTTCostly to implement? Probably moreso than ordinary signs. But far less subject to damage, which should save on future maintenance. Just a passing thought
actually, speed limits based on GPS is already shown on many modern locomotives with their PTC (or PTC precursor) displays. At least our systems show it. Still shouldn't be used as a crutch, though.
tomikawaTTCostly to implement? Probably moreso than ordinary signs. But far less subject to damage, which should save on future maintenance.
And maybe leave signs up to distract the morons. (I'm referring to the plinkers, so flamethrowers in idle, please.)
zugmann tomikawaTT Costly to implement? Probably moreso than ordinary signs. But far less subject to damage, which should save on future maintenance. Just a passing thought actually, speed limits based on GPS is already shown on many modern locomotives with their PTC (or PTC precursor) displays. At least our systems show it. Still shouldn't be used as a crutch, though.
tomikawaTT Costly to implement? Probably moreso than ordinary signs. But far less subject to damage, which should save on future maintenance. Just a passing thought
Especially when the GPS is off by 1/4 mile or more. Made that Leader system prompt some bad decisions that caused some harsh slack action. Shut the system off after that.
tomikawaTTWHat if, instead of a big target for gunners and taggers,
.
Wait, people read speed limit signs on the highways? No, most of the time they don't. They go at whatever speed they feel like unless stuck in a traffic jam. Then they read the signs and wonder why they aren't moving that fast.
They do slow down when the cop turns his lights on. :)
BigJim tomikawaTT WHat if, instead of a big target for gunners and taggers, In forty years of T&E service, I never saw a speed limit sign killed by a gun or even tagged. The rule book has another name for these things and that is a "Fixed Signal". AND, unlike Farmer Brown's cow, they need to stay FIXED!!!
tomikawaTT WHat if, instead of a big target for gunners and taggers,
In forty years of T&E service, I never saw a speed limit sign killed by a gun or even tagged. The rule book has another name for these things and that is a "Fixed Signal". AND, unlike Farmer Brown's cow, they need to stay FIXED!!!
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