What's the difference between a turn and a local? For example, suppose the Gertrude Turn and the Heathcliff local were both dispatched out of the same yard. What's the difference?
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Murphy Siding What's the difference between a turn and a local? For example, suppose the Gertrude Turn and the Heathcliff local were both dispatched out of the same yard. What's the difference?
Too young for Milton Berle but not Red Skelton, eh?
I remember watching Red Skelton as a kid in the mid-60's(?) Milton Berle was just some old dude who always seemed to be dressed in drag.
Murphy Siding What's the difference between a turn and a local? For example, suppose the Gertrude Turn and the Heathcliff local were both dispatched out of the same y
What's the difference between a turn and a local? For example, suppose the Gertrude Turn and the Heathcliff local were both dispatched out of the same y
Either can be and are locals, the difference is that a turn operates to a outlying point and returns to origin during the same tour of duty. A point to point local will operate between there orign terminal, working along the way to the desination terminal. Take rest at the destination terminal and then work from destination back to the original origin terminal.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Murphy,
Balt is correct BUT you should not assume that the terms are rigidly applied, especially in every day converstion. What I mean is that not every turn will be so called. I can think of two GN turnaround local jobs at Wenatchee WA in the late 1960's that were simply called locals; the Grotto Local and the Alcoa Local. The Pateros Turn, however was consistently called a turn.
Mac
Around here, the locals are actually serving customers. The turn jobs just run between yards, usually bringing the cars that the locals will take to the customers. Or taking the cars the locals receive from the customers and moving them to the bigger class yards.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Uhhh, Milton Berle? Red Skelton? Whisky tango foxtrot is that about? I don't get it.
54light15 Uhhh, Milton Berle? Red Skelton? Whisky tango foxtrot is that about? I don't get it.
Since the *local* here runs by my office early morning to places 50+ miles down the cornrows and back past my house early evening, it must be more of a *turn*. The train that switches in and out of locations within the city limits would probably be considered a turn as well?
Murphy Siding 54light15 Uhhh, Milton Berle? Red Skelton? Whisky tango foxtrot is that about? I don't get it. It's some banter from another thread http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/p/253088/2826994.aspx#2826994I said I was too young to remember Milton Berle, but in my first post on this thread I used the names Gertrude and Heathcliff, which were part of a comedy routine from The Red Skelton Show sometime in the 60's. In the end, it has nothing to do with this thread, but keeps things kind of light and cheerful. For the record, I turned 55 last week, which makes me younger than most of the people who are older than me.
It's some banter from another thread http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/p/253088/2826994.aspx#2826994I said I was too young to remember Milton Berle, but in my first post on this thread I used the names Gertrude and Heathcliff, which were part of a comedy routine from The Red Skelton Show sometime in the 60's. In the end, it has nothing to do with this thread, but keeps things kind of light and cheerful. For the record, I turned 55 last week, which makes me younger than most of the people who are older than me.
If you have kids, just wait until you realize they are older than you think you are. It was bad enough when my 1st was older than me, but now my youngest is also older than me and I am not sure how to come to grips with it all.
My Daughter had a 50th birthday party for me and I saved some of the decorations because I was so touched by it all... now I will soon get to use them again when I have the same party for her!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
If the 'in town" job stays within yard limits, which has no relation to city limits, it is a switch engine. You will find lots of variations in nomenclature between railroads as well.
The big issue is the state of road/yard separation in labor agreements. I have no current knowledge of this. Some of this terminology may also come from labor agreements which in the "classic era" were not identical from carrier to carrier. One example of variation, on the GN Spokane Division brakeman and switchman were separate crafts, while on the NP at Spokane they were a single craft. Important to the men and the unions, but not to the typical railfan.
Around here, there are no "yard limits". That is for designation of certain tracks or yards or something. My railroad has them - just none near here. Another railroad I am qualified on has them. You get a line 13 on your form D permitting you through these yard limits. No biggie.
Our local jobs, however, do have switching limits. Those are as far out as yard or local jobs are advertised to go. Now they can go further, but then they get paid extra for being assigned work to do "out of switching limits". How much depends on agreements, job types, etc. It all varies from railroad to railroad, contract to contract, and location to location.
At least where I was, we had to keep very consise records where yard and switching limits were, they almost never coincided and the switching limits signs mysteriously vanished shortly after we set them out, especially at Swink, CO....
From NORAC:
93. Movement within Yard Limits Yard limits are designated by Timetable and indicated by yard limit signs. Within yard limits, movements may be made on a main track by verbal permission of the Dispatcher (or Operator when authorized by the Dispatcher). The leading end of movement within yard limits must operate at Restricted Speed, with the following exceptions: 1. Passenger trains operating with Form D line 2 authority in non-signaled DCS territory may operate at Normal Speed. 2. Trains operating in ABS territory may operate according to signal indication when the signal is more favorable than Approach. Such movement must be prepared to stop at the next signal, within yard limits. Within yard limits, movements against the current of traffic must not be made without permission of the Dispatcher, who must first ensure that no opposing movements have been authorized.
The leading end of movement within yard limits must operate at Restricted Speed, with the following exceptions:
1. Passenger trains operating with Form D line 2 authority in non-signaled DCS territory may operate at Normal Speed.
2. Trains operating in ABS territory may operate according to signal indication when the signal is more favorable than Approach. Such movement must be prepared to stop at the next signal, within yard limits. Within yard limits, movements against the current of traffic must not be made without permission of the Dispatcher, who must first ensure that no opposing movements have been authorized.
We have no yard limits. What we do have is "Rule 98," wherein all movements are made at restricted speed and there is no supervision as such. Essentially a free-for-all.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Is refering to the same type of train as a "patrol" just a name peculiar to certin railroads?
Murphy Siding Is refering to the same type of train as a "patrol" just a name peculiar to certin railroads?
Johnny
If my memory is correct, "patrol" is an MILW term for local freights and road-switch jobs.
The Milwaukee Road is the only railroad that I have known to use the term, patrol for a switch run, but I only knew of one example called the Hopkins Patrol. They also used the term, tramp for a job, as in "10:00 PM TRAMP." I have no idea what makes a switch run, transfer, or local into a tramp; or whether the term, tramp was used by other railroads.
All jobs will pick up a nickname among the crews that staff them - so they can knowledgably talk about them among themeselves. In most cases some particular 'quirk' about what takes place on the job will make its way into what the crews have named it. That quirk may have existed, 50, 60 80 or 100 years ago and may be lost on today's T&E personnel, but that is what named the job 'back then' and it is what carries over into today's world.
Similar situations end up naming tracks.
BaltACD All jobs will pick up a nickname among the crews that staff them - so they can knowledgably talk about them among themeselves. In most cases some particular 'quirk' about what takes place on the job will make its way into what the crews have named it. That quirk may have existed, 50, 60 80 or 100 years ago and may be lost on today's T&E personnel, but that is what named the job 'back then' and it is what carries over into today's world. Similar situations end up naming tracks.
A turn is a method of operation and a local is a level of service. A turn is a train that runs out and returns to its origin (typically originating and terminating at the same location) using the same symbol or train designation. A local is a train that switches customers or uses a crew paid the local rate of service.
Not all turns are locals and not all locals are turns.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
My from many years ago: Dad would work a local from say here to a city west of Lincoln about 100 miles. He would be gone 3-5 days and hated them because the time away from home and the pay wasn't as good as.... a pool turn. When they would put a turn in the pool, it would mean he was home longer and didn't make as much money that half as when the pool was a little shorter. The local meant he would work the whole way to the designated city and all the way back. In the pool meant usually a night away from home. Locals were less $ and more expenses for the crew because they had to buy their own food. (probably still do)
Hazards of being a road engineer.
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
Did he usually work the same line, or did the engineers all work all routes out of Lincoln? CBQ?
I am not sure how the locals were called, but when he worked a pool turn, he would have mostly Hastings and Ravenna runs. The pool was made up of all crew members that were "old" enough to hold a pool turn. Once in awhile they would throw in Burwell - but can't say for sure if that was a pool turn or a local. I will venure a guess that it was a local, since in the winter, they had a lot of snow up around that area. So a snowplow job was, I believe, worked as a local. Gone for days! Keep in mind, I didn't work it, just lived it. Plus, by today's standards, this is ancient history. No cell phones, puters and you were tied to a 3rd adult by your home phone - "the call boy". And no party line phones - had to be private! Call a particular phone # to get the operator and then ask for 353, which was the call boy that would give you the line up and how many times out you were. This tells you how times have changed - probably for the better!
CBQ/BN
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