Like many of us, I have always admired the GG1, and so I was glad today to read on the Trains newswire that GG1 4859 has returned to its "resting place" under the shed at Harrisburg's passenger station.
But when I saw that the Pennsylvania State Legislature has apparently officicially designated GG1 4859 as the Offical Electric Locomotive of Pennsylvania my interest turned, well, shall we say, south? With all the problems Pennsylvania has faced sinced 1986 why does the State Legislature have time for such nonsense? What in the heck difference does it make whether or not a state has an official fossil, or an official song, or an oficial electric locomotive? Is this what these overpriced lawyers-turned-legislators get paid to do? I find it embarrassing as a railfan to think time was spent on anybody's part to do this.
Still, there is some schadenfreude in the knowledge that the Offical Electric Locomotive of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is dead. Dead as a doornail and will never again run under its own power because the same state legislature won't pony up the big bucks to restore it. I take no pleasure in this.
But it's so ironic that you'd think somebody would say 4985 is either a bad symbol or a bad omen for the Commonwealth.
By the way, in Ohio we choose to waste the public's time and money on designating "Hang on, Sloopy" as the Official Song of OSU.
Those designations were made years ago. Several of them were drafted up by elementary school kids.
The state government wasn't always this dysfunctional. And passing a piece of legislation is quick and easy. Spending millions on an engine that was beat to hell and back before it was retired is not. (besdies, they're a full time legislature. They have plenty of time. They just don't always use it wisely).
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
It's a simple act that has no financial consequences. So it's no big deal.
Given how legislatures act sometimes, though, I'm kind of surprised there weren't a bunch of amendments...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Restoring any GG1 to operating condition may be difficult to impossible. Using the original transformers would be slightly illegal due to the fact that they contain PCB's. They were designed and built for 11000VAC at 25 cycles so without a re-engineering they will soon have nowhere to run.
CSSHEGEWISCH Restoring any GG1 to operating condition may be difficult to impossible. Using the original transformers would be slightly illegal due to the fact that they contain PCB's. They were designed and built for 11000VAC at 25 cycles so without a re-engineering they will soon have nowhere to run.
Given all I've heard and read about the issues with GG1's, it's been my conclusion that one would essentially have to build a new locomotive on the frame and hope the body would fit over the works...
"+1"
Probably easier and aesthetic enough to attach a support car connected to the GG1's pantographs by an MU-type cable. Said support car would use modern transformers without PCB's and phase (cycle) converters to take whatever frequency and voltage is coming from the catenary - most modern locomotives on the NorthEast Corridor are set-up to do that - and convert it to the original 400 v/ 25 Hz* for the GG1's controller and motors.
* http://members.localnet.com/~docsteve/railroad/gg1.htm
"Will a GG1 ever run again?" Probably not - see:
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/#run
Too bad - If I had the bucks, that'd be #1 on my list. However, as is said at the link above:
"With all new electrical equipment and modern controls, this new GG1 could run on the Northeast Corridor or any other electrified railroad but, it would not be an authentic GG1, it would simply be a modern electric locomotive with the carbody of a GG1."
Well, I'd still rather have one running - even heavily modified like that - than just stuffed and mounted.
- Paul North.
"[Simon] Cameron is remembered for several famous quotes, including, "An honest politician is one who, when he is bought, will stay bought." " - from:
http://www.biography.com/people/simon-cameron-21022943
Which also says: "In addition to politics, Cameron—often referred to as "General Simon Cameron"—successfully dabbled in the railroad and banking businesses." [He lived from 1799 - 1889]
From http://explorepahistory.com/story.php?storyId=1-9-10&chapter=1 :
"By the 1870s Pennsylvania Railroad president, Thomas A. Scott's political power was so great that on a day of unusually heavy legislative activity, one lawmaker - after the chamber had voted to approve several bills that the PRR wanted -was reported to have asked the presiding officer, "Mr. Speaker, may we now go Scott free?" Another tale was that one legislative session ended as follows: "The Pennsylvania Railroad having no more business to come before this chamber, we stand adjourned." For decades afterwards PRR's lobbyist was known as the state's unofficial "51st senator." (Now as then, Pennsylvania's State Senate still consists of fifty members.)"
And from: http://www.cla.temple.edu/ipa/files/2012/12/ReorganizedHistory12162011.pdf
Historians generally agree that in Pennsylvania, as in many other states in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, large and wealthy industries like railroads, steel, coal, oil, banks, timber, utilities, and insurance at times wielded inordinate influence over legislators who served part-time, were poorly paid by the taxpayers, often worked in the very industries lobbying them as lawmakers, lacked professional staffs to assist them, and depended for re-election on powerful party organizations also allied with the special interests."
. . . In the years immediately after 1874, the legislative influence of the president of the Pennsylvania Railroad, at one point the largest corporation in the world, was legendary to the extent that in its centennial history, the railroad bragged about it.7
FN 7 "’Before the doors of the Pennsylvania’s office, Matthew Josephson wrote of the PRR, ‘politicians scraped their feet respectfully. At the bidding of the railroad, the Pennsylvania legislature passed necessary measures with noticeable speed. When Mr. (Thomas A.) Scott (PRR president from 1874—1880), according to legend, had ‘no further business for the legislature, it would promptly adjourn.’ Even the Penn Central’s Centennial History commissioned by the railroad…told of the state senator who, after two bills of great benefit to the railroad had been enacted, rose to ask, "Mr. Speaker, may we now go Scott free?"" Quoted in Daughen, Joseph R., and Peter Binzen. 1971. The Wreck of the Penn Central. Boston: Little, Brown & Company, 36.
FN 8: Even at mid-century, the Harrisburg lobbyist for Sun Oil was sometimes called the 51st senator and for the Pennsylvania Railroad the 52nd senator (Beers 1980: 192).
From a railfan perspective, who really cares that the internal electrical guts have been changed to modern electrical standards if it gets a GG1 carbody operating with pantograph raised and pulling cars?
Do we care that the local electrical substation has changed equipment over the past 80 years to continue supplying sufficient electrical service to our home? With the GG1 we don't see any electrical components beyond the pantograph so why should we care about what the internal guts of the locomotive look like.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Don't say that to Dr. D. See his complaint about repowering the Flying Yankee with a 567.
Paul_D_North_Jr "+1" Probably easier and aesthetic enough to attach a support car connected to the GG1's pantographs by an MU-type cable. Said support car would use modern transformers without PCB's and phase (cycle) converters to take whatever frequency and voltage is coming from the catenary - most modern locomotives on the NorthEast Corridor are set-up to do that - and convert it to the original 400 v/ 25 Hz* for the GG1's controller and motors. - Paul North.
Paul's idea has much merit. Would add a few items.
1. Find a GG1 that does not have the frame cracks that were at the end of most of their lives.
2. Why build a support car. Take one of the AEM-7s being retired, paint it in PRR colors and support the GG1 from the AEM-7 with an EMU cable. Would give HEP for trains and a backup for motive power in case of GG1 failure. GG1 could be painted to match.
3. EPA might require removal of PCB transformers from GG1.
4. Steam heat equipment could be removed from GG1.
5. Pans could be electrically isolated so they could actually be shown still contacting CAT.
6. Brake system should probably changed to 26L and blended brake equipment installed as well.
7. It may be necessary to change headlights or at least have them portable.
8. FRA glazing might be required.
PCBs and GG1s are one of those railfan myths that needs to be busted. (Note: This writer spent 20 years in the utility industry, power generation.) Polychlorinated biphenyls are not a show stopper; they barely qualify as the guy in the front row talking on his cell phone. Most people in the United States reading this are within one mile of a PCB filled transformer. How is that possible? What are the rules?
The rule is simple: If you remove PCBs from a transformer you can not put them back in. Large transformers are drained on a periodic basis for inspection. The larger the transformer the more periodic the inspection. The coolant is run through a press or filter and then added back to the transformer following a successful inspection. When we were breaking open a transformer with PCB additive the coolant was pumped into a tanker truck, the transformer flushed with new coolant until the PCB levels were below specs and then the PCBs were disposed IAW the law. If the transformer is small enough to not need periodic inspection then it is still in service until it fails.
PCBs in a transformer are not an issue; the transformer is the issue. They do not last forever. The transformer in an electric is like a diesel prime mover in a locomotive; they need to be changed out about every ten years. After all these years it is highly unlikely any G transformer can be redeemed for service. The good news is that the specs for a Gs' transformer are relatively common in industry so finding a replacement will not involve a custom build. Even so, new transformers are not cheap.
Then there is wiring inside the carbody; let me guarantee you it is all asbestos insulation. Problem? Well yes and no. You do not have to remove the asbestos but it will need to be encapsulated to prevent any fibers from going airborne. However, whenever any electrical work needs to be done this turns the job into a hazmat affair; break out the boy in the bubble suit.
Another minor issue will be the twelve traction motors; they will all have to be rewound.
The real showstopper will be the trucks. Since this thing is to run on Amtrak it will need a 40 year truck inspection. That means rolling out the trucks and stripping off anything that will come off until you get down to the bare casting. Using magnaflux or dye penetratant testing you find every crack, grind it out and weld it. As already mentioned there are some serious stress cracks the closer you get to the pivot point; you don't need magnaflux to find those. With all of the cutting, grinding and welding it becomes more than likely the castings will then have to be heat treated to relieve stress.
In the end you are going to spend $1.5 – 2 million bringing a G back to life. Then what? You can only run it on the NEC south of Sunnyside yard. It's doubtful you can run enough fan trips to get your money back. Is a GG1 historically significant enough to justify the expense to bring back to life? That is the question each of us has to ask ourselves.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
I agree with most of blue streak 1's suggestions, except for 2.:
Since my previous post, I thought of using another GG1 as the support car (also, would avoid the anachronism of an AEM-7 coupled to a GG1). Gut the 2nd GG1 so that you could install the updated and auxilliary equipment. Paint it in another one of the correct color schemes. The result ? Double-headed GG1's ! What's not to like about that ?
Mr. Carleton's estimate - understood as very approximate only, to be sure - is not off-putting to me. Although I don't have the money (yet !), far larger amounts have been spent on things with less value, IMHO.
Paul_D_North_Jr Mr. Carleton's estimate - understood as very approximate only, to be sure - is not off-putting to me. Although I don't have the money (yet !), far larger amounts have been spent on things with less value, IMHO. - Paul North.
NKP guyBut when I saw that the Pennsylvania State Legislature has apparently officially designated GG1 4859 as the Official Electric Locomotive of Pennsylvania my interest turned, well, shall we say, south?
Decidedly so, as I thought 4800 Rivets was already the 'official' state electric locomotive of Pennsylvania.
If anyone is interested, I just watched a movie from 1957, called "The Burglar" with Dan Duryea and Jayne Mansfield making her film debut. There is also a GG1 pulling a long train with a diner and sleepers, supposedly to Atlantic City from Philadelphia, both cities were used as locations. Jayne sure had the acting chops before Hollywood decided to focus on her curves. She had the makings of a very serious actress, I think. Not to change the subject. Anyway, it's always good to see a GG1 in motion.
D.CarletonPCBs in a transformer are not an issue;
Eh, that's not how it played out. When the Pyranol was changed out for mineral oil, there was still enough Pyranol in the windings to contaminate the mineral oil. You never could get clear of the PCBs. All the Conrail electrics and SEPTA and NJT MUs had their transformers flushed, but you still had guys out in hazmat suits everytime there was a leak.
D.CarletonThen there is wiring inside the carbody; let me guarantee you it is all asbestos insulation. Problem? Well yes and no. You do not have to remove the asbestos but it will need to be encapsulated to prevent any fibers from going airborne.
Prior to the advent of high quality petrochemical based wiring insulation in the late 1960s, it was rare to get more than about 15 years out of locomotive control wiring. I'd bet the GG1's control wiring was completely asbestos free by the time they were retired. The power cabling - I have no idea.
Most of the gaskets in the air system and plumbing originally contained asbestos, too. Depending on how hard Amtrak pushed, most of that could have been replaced by retirement, too, during normal component rebuilding.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
After reading all these depressing posts I suppose the only places we'll see GG1's run are on model train layouts.
At least they ARE electric powered.
GG-1 on 60Hz. The motors will work perfectly well on DC. New 60Hz or 25-60 Hz transformer, the rectifiers and control equipment from three scrapped DC Swedish meatballs, and you have a GG-1 that can be used on the NEC. A million bucks or more for reasons discussed above. But possible.
Firelock76 After reading all these depressing posts I suppose the only places we'll see GG1's run are on model train layouts. At least they ARE electric powered.
daveklepper GG-1 on 60Hz. The motors will work perfectly well on DC. New 60Hz or 25-60 Hz transformer, the rectifiers and control equipment from three scrapped DC Swedish meatballs, and you have a GG-1 that can be used on the NEC. A million bucks or more for reasons discussed above. But possible.
To go east of New Haven, 25kV, you need a new transformer but you'll need a new one anyways.
The overseas railroads (mostly in Europe) are generally operating at the same voltage and frequency today as they did when the old-timers were operating. Besides, what happens when the rest of the NEC get converted to 60 cycles?
CSSHEGEWISCH The overseas railroads (mostly in Europe) are generally operating at the same voltage and frequency today as they did when the old-timers were operating.
The overseas railroads (mostly in Europe) are generally operating at the same voltage and frequency today as they did when the old-timers were operating.
Yes, 25kV 50Hz is in the European Union's Trans-European railway interoperability standards.
Only part of the NEC is still 25 Hz. Everything from Sunnyside north is 60 Hz. 12500 volts to New Haven, then 25000 volts to Boston. GG1s did regularly run to New Haven after the PC merger, through Amtrak, until the Swedish Meatballs repalced them. Then Metro North started the coversion process, and Amtrak comjpleted it on the Hell Gate Bridge line.
CSSHEGEWISCH The overseas railroads (mostly in Europe) are generally operating at the same voltage and frequency today as they did when the old-timers were operating. Besides, what happens when the rest of the NEC get converted to 60 cycles?
A couple of months I was exploring RR electrification links on Wackypedia and came across references to traction power transmission lines. Apparently Germany has a major 16 2/3 Hz single phase line, being fed by frequency converters and dedicated 16 2/3 Hz turbine generators - one was part of a Nuclear plant.
Dave's idea for a running GG1 makes sense, keep the motors but run them on DC.
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