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Thunder and Whine

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Thunder and Whine
Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:55 PM

     I was out walking tonight and got delayed by a train- darn the luck.  It was a rock train on the Dakota & Iowa Railroad and it was moving right along.  Their locomotives are old, rebuilt Milwaukee Road Geeps and a few SD-40's.  I presume the Geeps aren't turbocharged because the were just thundering instead of the usual whine of SD-70's on the BNSF grain trains.

      Do locomotives sound appreciably different under different humidity and temperature conditions?  How do the different conditions affect performance and fuel consumption?

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Posted by Mookie on Tuesday, September 15, 2015 9:04 PM

Hey Bud (Murphy) - those SD70's don't whine.  Next to the GE's, they purr!  But I must remember that we ladies hear a lot better than 99% of the male population.  Kisses

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 15, 2015 10:19 PM

Mookie

Hey Bud (Murphy) - those SD70's don't whine.  Next to the GE's, they purr!  But I must remember that we ladies hear a lot better than 99% of the male population.  Kisses

 

Huh? 

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 15, 2015 10:21 PM

   I've heard SD-70's whine, whistle and purr.  Hmmmm.... That might be the start of a country song.MusicCowboyMusic

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, September 15, 2015 10:35 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the sounds generated by a given locomotive don't change all that much regardless of weather conditions.

What does change is how weather conditions transmit the sound to your ear.  

Early EMD's may not have a turbo, but they still have a distinctive whine - due, I think, to the Roots blower.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 16, 2015 8:06 AM

       There's some sort of analogy in there about how my wife isn't mumbling, it's that I'm losing my hearing and I'm blaming her for mumbling .... or something like that. Sigh

     You may be right about the weather conditions transmitting sound.  But, wouldn't an engine that had a turbo or blower be receiving a different air to fuel mixture at different heat and humidity levels?  In race cars, that seems to make them sound different- or at least transmit the sound to my ears differently.

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Posted by zugmann on Wednesday, September 16, 2015 10:02 AM

Murphy Siding
There's some sort of analogy in there about how my wife isn't mumbling, it's that I'm losing my hearing and I'm blaming her for mumbling .... or something like that. Sigh

 

Mightesometruthinthat,youknow.

 

 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by Mookie on Wednesday, September 16, 2015 12:04 PM

I know two things for certain.  I can hear a GE before I can see it.  This may be only certain GEs, I don't know.

And on a clear, cool nite with no wind, trains pulling the south grade 10 blocks from us sound like they are at the foot of the bed.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 16, 2015 1:31 PM

zugmann

 

 
Murphy Siding
There's some sort of analogy in there about how my wife isn't mumbling, it's that I'm losing my hearing and I'm blaming her for mumbling .... or something like that. Sigh

 

 

Mightesometruthinthat,youknow.

 

 

 

She'll be happy to know you're on her side. Mischief

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 16, 2015 1:34 PM

Mookie

I know two things for certain.  I can hear a GE before I can see it.  This may be only certain GEs, I don't know.

And on a clear, cool nite with no wind, trains pulling the south grade 10 blocks from us sound like they are at the foot of the bed.

 

  I think you're writing the verses to that country song. Cowboy


     What do the GE's sound like?  Sometimes I can hear trains in the distance that sound like a gaggle(?) of Harleys running in a pack.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, September 16, 2015 1:53 PM

GE engines have a sound deeper than anything I've heard on a hawg.  FDL's were similar in sound to 251's.

A sound that I hear regularly, but especially on summer nights when the windows are open, is the squeal of the retarders on Clearing's hump.

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Posted by Mookie on Wednesday, September 16, 2015 4:46 PM

GE's whoop.  At least the older ones do. And they seem to run rougher than their EMD counterpart.  The Greenies are still smooth as silk.  GE - like itchy wool.  

And I left out a line for the song we are writing - the trains climbing our grade sound like they are at the foot of the bed, heading down the hall for the bathroom!  

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Posted by Mookie on Wednesday, September 16, 2015 4:48 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

GE engines have a sound deeper than anything I've heard on a hawg.  FDL's were similar in sound to 251's.

A sound that I hear regularly, but especially on summer nights when the windows are open, is the squeal of the retarders on Clearing's hump.

 

Paul - back in the 50's, I lived 2 blocks closer than I do now and we had a "real" hump with a sorting yard.  Summer and no a/c, with windows open, we would hear the retarders, the loud speakers for the hump and then an occasional really loud crash as the cars would run into each other.  It was loud enough to make you jump!

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Posted by SALfan on Wednesday, September 16, 2015 6:04 PM

Someone once described GE's as having a "farm-tractor chug".  I don't totally disagree, but to me they sound more like an old Ford V8 pickup with glasspack mufflers, kind of a "blap-blap-blap-blap" sound.  I can't describe it very well, but I can definitely hear it.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 16, 2015 9:58 PM

Mookie

GE's whoop.  At least the older ones do. And they seem to run rougher than their EMD counterpart.  The Greenies are still smooth as silk.  GE - like itchy wool.  

And I left out a line for the song we are writing - the trains climbing our grade sound like they are at the foot of the bed, heading down the hall for the bathroom!  

 

With apologies to Bruce Springsteen.. 

MusicMusic At night I wake up with the sheets soaking wet
and a freight train running at the foot of my bed
And oh...... it's too late
Oh oh oh it's too lateStorm  MusicMusic Ashamed

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Posted by Ulrich on Thursday, September 17, 2015 7:58 AM

Murphy Siding

     
      Do locomotives sound appreciably different under different humidity and temperature conditions?  How do the different conditions affect performance and fuel consumption?

Not appreciably different unless there's something wrong with them.

 

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Posted by Mookie on Thursday, September 17, 2015 9:46 AM

Murphy Siding

 

 
Mookie

GE's whoop.  At least the older ones do. And they seem to run rougher than their EMD counterpart.  The Greenies are still smooth as silk.  GE - like itchy wool.  

And I left out a line for the song we are writing - the trains climbing our grade sound like they are at the foot of the bed, heading down the hall for the bathroom!  

 

 

 

With apologies to Bruce Springsteen.. 

MusicMusic At night I wake up with the sheets soaking wet
and a freight train running at the foot of my bed
And oh...... it's too late
Oh oh oh it's too lateStorm  MusicMusic Ashamed

 

 

Stay with lumber...

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Posted by switch7frg on Thursday, September 17, 2015 12:25 PM

                                                                                    .....................Huh?Has anyone heard an older engine sound like it is (burbling or whistling)? The other sound is a grunting or hunting at lower speed. Any opinions??    

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Posted by edblysard on Friday, September 18, 2015 7:42 AM

 

Until recently, all EMDs were two stroke forced induction engines; GEs are a four stroke design with an exhaust driven turbo charger.

 

The EMDs use what is known as a uni-scavenge system, with the Roots style blower creating the air flow into/out of the cylinder, the “whine” is from the air rushing past the intake/exhaust valves and the blower itself.

 

Once the engine is up to speed, the turbo takes over the air supply, the blower is used for idle and acceleration, which is part of the reason EMDs load up so fast, there ls little if any turbo lag.

The” whooping” sound GEs make is from the air compressor, it is an electric driven compressor, the “whoop” is from the start up of the compressor, EMDs use a shaft driven compressor, running off a lay shaft or PTO shaft connected to the crank shaft, which is why some engineers will notch up or rev the engine up when pumping the air for the brakes, the EMD compressor is driven by a geared shaft, speeding up the engine speeds up the compressor.

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Posted by mudchicken on Friday, September 18, 2015 8:16 AM

Burbling is the 4 cycle engine ... GE FDL and especially ALCo (251 burble & wheeze)

Growling is the 2 Cycle is the EMD at low speed with the traction motors and d/b's kicked-in on a descending grade.

 

 

 

 

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Posted by switch7frg on Friday, September 18, 2015 5:07 PM

Big Smile Mudchicken, thank you for the info on those engines. "Whew" I thought  my imagination was toying with me.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, September 19, 2015 6:51 AM

A most interesting sound would be that of a 539-powered switcher while flat switching and kicking cars.  The engine burbles (along with a large pall of smoke) when the throttle is opened and the cut accelerates, followed by the whine of the turbocharger when the throttle is closed and a car is released to coast into the yard track.

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Posted by Wizlish on Saturday, September 19, 2015 8:33 AM

edblysard
Until recently, all EMDs were two stroke forced induction engines; GEs are a four stroke design with an exhaust driven turbo charger ... Once the [EMD] engine is up to speed, the turbo takes over the air supply, the blower is used for idle and acceleration, which is part of the reason EMDs load up so fast, there ls little if any turbo lag.

This is including a number of mechanical details indiscriminately, which will cause problems for anyone who doesn't know how EMD turbochargers are constructed.  All EMD two-strokes require 'forced induction' for scavenging - the clearing of exhaust through the exhaust valves, and provision of clean combustion air in the cylinder volume for the next compression/power cycle.  On the other hand, modern EMD engines also require charge-air compression to make their higher power, similar to how many modern automobile and OTR truck diesel engines use turbocharging.  There were some early experiments with turbocharging 567s -- I think on UP; someone like Buslist would know -- but they did not prove successful because the two requirements couldn't be met simultaneously wh a simple wastegated turbo setup and contemporary control technology.  Hence EMD's rather clever (if nightmare to maintain) system which drives the turbocharger's compressor mechanically when exhaust volume is insufficient to produce adequate turbine power.

"Forced induction" applied equally well to mechanically-driven superchargers and turbosuperchargers; perhaps a better distinction when discussing EMDs is positive-displacement vs. compressor.  The gear-driven Roots blowers are positive-displacement superchargers; the overrunning-clutch 'hybrid' supercharger-turbochargers on  turbo 645/710s aren't.

There's a particular quality to the Roots-blower gear noise at idle and low speed/acceleration that is (at least to me) absent from the hybrid-turbocharger sound.  In my opinion there is a certain magic to that sound, especially in multiple-unit consists, that is unparalleled in any other locomotive.

The EMDs use what is known as a uni-scavenge system, with the Roots style blower creating the air flow into/out of the cylinder, the “whine” is from the air rushing past the intake/exhaust valves and the blower itself.

If you can demonstrate how air rushing past intake valves in an EMD two-stroke produces a whine, I will send you $50. Wink

I had thought that almost all the 'whine' of the non-turbo engine is the gearing in the Roots blowers; I would expect it to far outweigh any induction noise that the comparably small overpressure involved in the scavenge charging might cause at low speed, and I'd expect that the exhaust noise would mask induction air noise at non-blower-drive frequencies at higher speeds.  The Roots blower uses the gears both to drive the rotors and keep them aligned with the necessary precision, meaning that the gears are both robust and heavily loaded - a prescription for unavoidable noise.

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Posted by edblysard on Saturday, September 19, 2015 3:29 PM
 True, the intake side on an EMD is really a scavenge port, not a valve per se, but I was trying to keep it simple.
The whine is partially from the blower itself, but mostly from the ports, and the characteristic high/low volume cycle to the whine is created when the pistons block the ports, that sound is hidden under acceleration, the blower or super charger and other engine noise is way to loud by then.
For those interested, Wikipedia has a fairly detailed page on how uniflow or scavenge works.

Another useful link,  http://www.tpub.com/engine3/en32-1.htm

The roots style super charger on EMDs do run on a gear.
 
I do realize of course, that if I were to post a comment that the background to this forum web page is white, you would respond that it is really a light gray, or grey, and use at least two paragraphs to explain the difference in the two words, followed by an anecdotal and self congratulatory paragraph, so....knock yourself out.

Any question about any make or model of any locomotive ever built, along with inquiries about why the sky is blue, nuclear engineering, the possibility of intelligent life beyond our solar system, and whether Moses really looked like Charlton Heston with long white hair and a beard should be directed accordingly.

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