Laughing while black

[gardendance]

schlimm

+2    Thanks for what would seem to be the final word on this event.

 

Final word you say? Challenge accepted.

wanswheel

Excerpt from Napa Valley Register

...

Johnson said, the train’s maître d’hotel told the group, “Your noise level is a little loud, and you have to tone it down so we don’t make others uncomfortable."

...

“She said people were complaining and I said, ‘Who’s complaining?’

And she said, ‘Well, people’s faces are uncomfortable,'” said Johnson. “At that point, one passenger nearby said, 'Well, this is not a bar.' We reacted, 'Yes, it is a bar, a bar on wheels.'"

 

although these are Johnson's quotes of someone else's quotes, if they're accurate:

1. In my opinion noone in customer service should EVER use words like "you need to". This phrase does not defuse a problen, it angers the recipient and escalates the situation.

2. apparently the staff did not lie, at least one fellow passenger complained, presumably the person who said "this is not a bar"

3. the photo clearly shows drinking glasses hanging from the ceiling, that sure fits my definition of a bar.

wanswheel

 

and the clincher is this photo. That sure looks like a bar to me.

[Euclid]

It appears that the issue in this case was whether the wine train had the right to limit the loudness of its customers.  Clearly, the book club didn’t think so.  Using the presumption that bars entitle unlimited loudness of patrons, the book club argued that the wine train is a bar.   

[schlimm]

gardendance

Final word you say? Challenge accepted.

I think you misunderstood what I said.   NVWT CEO Tony Giaccio's statement indicated that the train crew acted inappropriately, both on the train and afterwards in the FB post.   I agree with the CEO, you and Wanswheel.  The train is a bar and not the public library.  The expectation should be that groups will be somewhat noisy.

“Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Somehow that vital information never made it to the appropriate channels and we failed to seat your group where you could enjoy yourself properly and alert our train’s staff that they should expect a particularly vibrant group.

“We were insensitive when we asked you to depart our train by marching you down the aisle past all the other passengers. While that was the safest route for disembarking, it showed a lack of sensitivity on our part that I did not fully conceive of until you explained the humiliation of the experience and how it impacted you and your fellow Book Club members.

“We also erred by placing an inaccurate post on our Facebook site that was not reflective of what actually occurred.

[wanswheel]

Like a bar it’s got a bouncer.

http://nvrpolice.com/nvrpolice.html

 

Enjoy’n the party?

http://online.ceb.com/calcases/C3/50C3d370.htm

[Convicted One]

Euclid

Using the presumption that bars entitle unlimited loudness of patrons

 

litigation has established time and again that bars have a responsibility to monitor the behaviour of it's patrons, and act proactively to assure unsafe conditions do not arise. 

I'd say that if customers consuming alcohol  in a bar become unruly and uncooperative, the "bar" has a duty to at minimum  to quit serving intoxicating beverages to the offending patrons.

That may have gotten the message across in a way the offenders could appreciate?

[Firelock76]

Well, there's bars and there's bars.  When I go to a bar, which isn't very often, what I want is place to enjoy a quiet beer or two with a friend or two.  That being the case I don't go to sports bars, singles bars, music bars, biker bars, party bars, or what-have-you bars.  I know what to expect in those places so I don't go there.

Seems to me that the Wine Train should figure out just what kind of venue it wants to be and post that on the reservation information so any potential patrons know what they're getting into and what's expected of them so there's no surprises.

I mean, none of us go to a fancy, high-toned restaurant and expect to shout to be heard, do we?

Just so there's no mistake, I wasn't on the Wine Train when this incident occured so I'm making no pretense at knowing what happened.

[Murphy Siding]

Convicted One

 

 

Euclid

Using the presumption that bars entitle unlimited loudness of patrons

 

 

 

litigation has established time and again that bars have a responsibility to monitor the behaviour of it's patrons, and act proactively to assure unsafe conditions do not arise. 

I'd say that if customers consuming alcohol  in a bar become unruly and uncooperative, the "bar" has a duty to at minimum  to quit serving intoxicating beverages to the offending patrons.

That may have gotten the message across in a way the offenders could appreciate?

 

   I shied away from this, as the whole thing seems kind of silly, but... what unsafe conditions were the train people supposed to protect the other riders from?  Sore eardrums from too much noise coming from the next car?

[Convicted One]

Murphy Siding

what unsafe conditions were the train people supposed to protect the other riders from?

 

If the customer is growing so inebriated that they are defiant and uncooperative, who can say for sure where that will lead?  You sure don't want one of the customers getting so tipsy that they crash while driving home, in which case that person's heirs will surely play the "you witnessed their growing impairment, yet continued to serve them?"  card

[ChrisB1962]

I can tell from some of the comments that few if any of you have actually ridden the Napa Valley Wine Train.  I have.  It is most definitely "not a bar" despite the name.  It is a rolling upscale restaurant and boisterous behavior would be as out of place as in any similar establishment in a fixed location.

I have no doubt the CEO is doing what needs to be done to combat the Internet firestorm the company is probably experiencing.  If somebody gets fired, then maybe I'll think they did something wrong.

[Murphy Siding]

Convicted One

 

 

Murphy Siding

what unsafe conditions were the train people supposed to protect the other riders from?

 

 

 

If the customer is growing so inebriated that they are defiant and uncooperative, who can say for sure where that will lead?  You sure don't want one of the customers getting so tipsy that they crash while driving home, in which case that person's heirs will surely play the "you witnessed their growing impairment, yet continued to serve them?"  card

 

 Have you read anything that said anyone was growing so inebreiated that they were defiant and uncooperative?

[schlimm]

ChrisB1962

I can tell from some of the comments that few if any of you have actually ridden the Napa Valley Wine Train.  I have.  It is most definitely "not a bar" despite the name.  It is a rolling upscale restaurant and boisterous behavior would be as out of place as in any similar establishment in a fixed location.

I have no doubt the CEO is doing what needs to be done to combat the Internet firestorm the company is probably experiencing.  If somebody gets fired, then maybe I'll think they did something wrong.

 

How do you know what the CEO is really doing?   Are you a mind reader?   His statement is very clear:  “Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Somehow that vital information never made it to the appropriate channels and we failed to seat your group where you could enjoy yourself properly and alert our train’s staff that they should expect a particularly vibrant group."

[Murphy Siding]

schlimm

 

 

ChrisB1962

I can tell from some of the comments that few if any of you have actually ridden the Napa Valley Wine Train.  I have.  It is most definitely "not a bar" despite the name.  It is a rolling upscale restaurant and boisterous behavior would be as out of place as in any similar establishment in a fixed location.

I have no doubt the CEO is doing what needs to be done to combat the Internet firestorm the company is probably experiencing.  If somebody gets fired, then maybe I'll think they did something wrong.

 

 

 

 

How do you know what the CEO is really doing?   Are you a mind reader?   His statement is very clear:  “Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Somehow that vital information never made it to the appropriate channels and we failed to seat your group where you could enjoy yourself properly and alert our train’s staff that they should expect a particularly vibrant group."

 

 Well, using that logic, are you a mind reader?  How do you know what the CEO is really doing?  Is he speaking the truth, or simply reading from a script given to him by Singer Associates Inc. Public Affairs & Corporate Communications PB folks have told him people want to hear?

     To me, it appears that the company messed up and the boss (or owner?) apologized and is trying to make up for the company's error.  That's the right thing to do, and they seem to be pursuing that avenue.  Good for them.

[Euclid]

I will not draw any conclusion as to who was at fault in this case.  To draw any conclusion, I would either have had to have been there, or be a mind reader.  Either side could be exaggerating.  However, I do conclude that regardless of whether the book club was overly disruptive, the wine train’s reaction seems to have been completely tone deaf.  But it is still possible that their initial objection to the book club may be accurate.  I would not conclude otherwise simply on the basis that the wine train is now apologizing and acting like it is all their fault.  At this point, they have seen the incredibly bad optics of their actions, and realize that no good can come from standing on a principle that the book club was out of order (even if they were). 

[Paul3]

Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train.  The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women.

To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way.  Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud?  Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay.  Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't?  Heck no, not okay.  Now I'm ticked.  Now I want action taken.

Again, why did the NVWT lie?  What made this group of women different?  So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior?  Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off?  Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right)  Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women?

I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?

Paul A. Cutler III

[wanswheel]

http://www.waukeenmccoy.com/index.html#gallery-section

 

Excerpt from SFGate

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Black-book-club-members-exploring-lawsuit-against-6471969.php

 

Members of a mostly African American book club kicked off the Napa Valley Wine Train plan to seek up to $5 million for the “malicious oppression” they suffered, a lawyer hired to represent the 11 women said Friday.

 

"There must be compensation for the humiliation suffered” by the members of the Sistahs on the Reading Edge Book Club, said San Francisco civil rights lawyer Waukeen McCoy.

 

McCoy said he planned to meet with representatives of the Wine Train next week to discuss a possible financial settlement. The Wine Train had proposed making amends by turning over a 50-seat private car to the club for a future trip — an offer worth about $6,200 based on the current fare of $124.

 

“That’s not going to get this resolved at all,” McCoy said. “This was clearly racial discrimination.”

 

McCoy said similar cases of discrimination have settled for "$500,000 to $1 million to $5 million," and he said such a settlement would be appropriate in this case.

 

"Off the top of my head, that's what I see," McCoy said. "They have been humiliated, and we don't want this to happen to anyone else."

[avonlea22]

Oh here we go, let's get the lawyers on it so we can make some money. Man, this just rubs me the wrong way.

[Euclid]

Wow.  Didn't see that coming.  I did notice that about three days ago, the book club said that the wine train's apology was not accepted, and there was mention of a lawsuit.  Maybe some others on the train will come forward and tell what really happened.  

[schlimm]

Murphy Siding

 

 

schlimm

 

 

ChrisB1962

I can tell from some of the comments that few if any of you have actually ridden the Napa Valley Wine Train.  I have.  It is most definitely "not a bar" despite the name.  It is a rolling upscale restaurant and boisterous behavior would be as out of place as in any similar establishment in a fixed location.

I have no doubt the CEO is doing what needs to be done to combat the Internet firestorm the company is probably experiencing.  If somebody gets fired, then maybe I'll think they did something wrong.

 

 

 

 

How do you know what the CEO is really doing?   Are you a mind reader?   His statement is very clear:  “Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Somehow that vital information never made it to the appropriate channels and we failed to seat your group where you could enjoy yourself properly and alert our train’s staff that they should expect a particularly vibrant group."

 

 

 

 

 Well, using that logic, are you a mind reader?  How do you know what the CEO is really doing?  Is he speaking the truth, or simply reading from a script given to him by Singer Associates Inc. Public Affairs & Corporate Communications PB folks have told him people want to hear?

     To me, it appears that the company messed up and the boss (or owner?) apologized and is trying to make up for the company's error.  That's the right thing to do, and they seem to be pursuing that avenue.  Good for them.

 

 

No unlike some, I do not pretend to be able to devine what people really mean, as opposed to their clear public statements.  You are simply imposing your own particular views without any actual information to the contrary, aka, a projection.

[schlimm]

Paul3

Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train.  The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women.

To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way.  Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud?  Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay.  Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't?  Heck no, not okay.  Now I'm ticked.  Now I want action taken.

Again, why did the NVWT lie?  What made this group of women different?  So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior?  Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off?  Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right)  Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women?

I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?

Paul A. Cutler III

 

Sadly, Paul, you have to realize that there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions had they been part of the NVWT crew.

I wonder how many folks here would find it acceptable to be told your group is too loud and then be marched through the length of the train to get off with the police waiting as though they had committed some crime?

[Murphy Siding]

schlimm

 

 

Murphy Siding

 

 

schlimm

 

 

ChrisB1962

I can tell from some of the comments that few if any of you have actually ridden the Napa Valley Wine Train.  I have.  It is most definitely "not a bar" despite the name.  It is a rolling upscale restaurant and boisterous behavior would be as out of place as in any similar establishment in a fixed location.

I have no doubt the CEO is doing what needs to be done to combat the Internet firestorm the company is probably experiencing.  If somebody gets fired, then maybe I'll think they did something wrong.

 

 

 

 

How do you know what the CEO is really doing?   Are you a mind reader?   His statement is very clear:  “Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Somehow that vital information never made it to the appropriate channels and we failed to seat your group where you could enjoy yourself properly and alert our train’s staff that they should expect a particularly vibrant group."

 

 

 

 

 Well, using that logic, are you a mind reader?  How do you know what the CEO is really doing?  Is he speaking the truth, or simply reading from a script given to him by Singer Associates Inc. Public Affairs & Corporate Communications PB folks have told him people want to hear?

     To me, it appears that the company messed up and the boss (or owner?) apologized and is trying to make up for the company's error.  That's the right thing to do, and they seem to be pursuing that avenue.  Good for them.

 

 

 

 

 

No unlike some, I do not pretend to be able to devine what people really mean, as opposed to their clear public statements.  You are simply imposing your own particular views without any actual information to the contrary, aka, a projection.

 

  I dunno.  It seems to me that you are projecting what someone really means based on their "clear public statements".  I'm suggesting that none of us can say for certain "what people really mean" based on their official statements to the press (and to that monster stepchild of the press- social media).  Note that the public realtions and corporate communications people involved in the clear cut public statements.

      Anyhoo, this reminds me that I need to be more diligent in keeping my nose out of silly threads such as this one, as soon there will be discussions about whether the sky really is blue, or it just appears that way.  Have a nice day.

[Murphy Siding]

schlimm

 

 

Paul3

Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train.  The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women.

To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way.  Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud?  Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay.  Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't?  Heck no, not okay.  Now I'm ticked.  Now I want action taken.

Again, why did the NVWT lie?  What made this group of women different?  So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior?  Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off?  Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right)  Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women?

I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?

Paul A. Cutler III

 

 

 

 

Sadly, Paul, you have to realize that there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions had they been part of the NVWT crew.

I wonder how many folks here would find it acceptable to be told your group is too loud and then be marched through the length of the train to get off with the police waiting as though they had committed some crime?

 

Awe nuts!  I told myself I was running far away from this thread, and then I see this.  schlimm- when you use phrases like " there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions", you change the complexion of a thread in not so good ways.  Instead of having the focus be our common interest in trains, the focus will now become round 14 of schlimm verses the world.  Good luck my friend.

[Convicted One]

Murphy Siding

Have you read anything that said anyone was growing so inebreiated that they were defiant and uncooperative?

 

The account I read stated that the staff asked the bookclub to "tone it down" three times, to no avail.  Let's bear in mind that the train belongs to the NVWT, they have a right to try and control the environment. The fact that the bookclub defied and refused to cooperate with those requests serves as it's own testimony.

In an environment where intoxicating beverages are served, I believe that it's reasonable to conclude that uncooperative behavior defying requests made by staff, could be a result of intoxication.

I know of absolutely no precedent whatsoever, where a bar has been found in error for "cutting-off" suspect troublemakers. I know of no incidents where a bar was required to administer a blood alcohol test to back up their suspicion that a customer has had too much. But I invite you to provide examples if you can find them.

If you go back and read my comment, I offered that "cutting-off" the offending revelers would have been a superior solution to the events as they actually transpired.

 

"Here, have a cup of coffee on the house, your behavior is causing us to become concerned for your welfare". Try and sue me for that

 

[wanswheel]

Murphy Siding

silly threads such as this one

 

I feared this thread could become silly or worse, but the story seemed relevant and perhaps historically important, thus worth chancing it.

 

Excerpt from article by Washington Post columnist Lonnae O'Neal

A satirical essay on the website VerySmartBrothas called the dust-up the "blackest thing that ever happened this week." Because a Pew study last year found that college-educated black women read more than anybody in the country. And because "a group of Black people doing absolutely nothing other than 'enjoying life'" facing some sort of legal consequence also feels extra ethnic.

"So maybe, to be safe, if you happen to be Black, just don't be Black," wrote the website's editor, Damon Young. "It's probably the best thing for everyone involved."

Young said to me in an interview: "When you follow the news and you're aware of these news stories involving race, especially the ones where black people are getting harassed or arrested, you can't help but recognize the absurdity of it.

"You get angry, annoyed — you feel all those emotions. But after you sit back and read the story, you're like: This is some silly (expletive) right here."

http://verysmartbrothas.com/getting-kicked-off-a-wine-tour-for-laughingwhileblack-is-the-blackest-thing-that-ever-happened-this-week/

[schlimm]

I was simply saying I take the CEO's account word for word.  I see no reason to 'interpret" it.

[edblysard]

schlimm

 

Paul3

Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train.  The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women.

To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way.  Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud?  Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay.  Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't?  Heck no, not okay.  Now I'm ticked.  Now I want action taken.

Again, why did the NVWT lie?  What made this group of women different?  So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior?  Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off?  Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right)  Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women?

I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?

Paul A. Cutler III

 

 

 

 

Sadly, Paul, you have to realize that there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions had they been part of the NVWT crew.

I wonder how many folks here would find it acceptable to be told your group is too loud and then be marched through the length of the train to get off with the police waiting as though they had committed some crime?

 

Please cite the supporting documentation of the "folks" here who would support such actions based on the book club group's skin color.

[schlimm]

edblysard

 

 

schlimm

 

Paul3

Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train.  The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women.

To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way.  Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud?  Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay.  Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't?  Heck no, not okay.  Now I'm ticked.  Now I want action taken.

Again, why did the NVWT lie?  What made this group of women different?  So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior?  Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off?  Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right)  Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women?

I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?

Paul A. Cutler III

 

 

 

 

Sadly, Paul, you have to realize that there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions had they been part of the NVWT crew.

I wonder how many folks here would find it acceptable to be told your group is too loud and then be marched through the length of the train to get off with the police waiting as though they had committed some crime?

 

 

 

 

Please cite the supporting documentation of the "folks" here who would support such actions based on the book club group's skin color.

 

 

Please do not put words in other's posts.   I never said one word about skin color.  But you did.

And "folks" was used in a question as to how many here might have done the same thing as that crew.  So why would I need to cite any documentation?  Or in your world, is that now a prereq for asking questions?

[Convicted One]

schlimm

I never said one word about race

 

The subject is entirely without merit, absent any angle of race. It is inherently a matter of race.

 

If the group expelled for being too loud was all, or predominantly white, there would be no news significance to the story, and people would scoff at the mere suggestion that the group had in any way been wronged.

 

This is ONLY a matter of race. But not the one getting all the attention.

[edblysard]

schlimm

 

Paul3

Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train.  The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women.

To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way.  Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud?  Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay.  Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't?  Heck no, not okay.  Now I'm ticked.  Now I want action taken.

Again, why did the NVWT lie?  What made this group of women different?  So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior?  Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off?  Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right)  Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women?

I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?

Paul A. Cutler III

 

 

 

 

Sadly, Paul, you have to realize that there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions had they been part of the NVWT crew.

I wonder how many folks here would find it acceptable to be told your group is too loud and then be marched through the length of the train to get off with the police waiting as though they had committed some crime?

 

Your use of the word atrocious defines the issue, clarifies that it is indeed about race.

 

If this had been a group of mid-level white businessmen, it would never have made the news, much less attracted attention here.

 

It certainly would not have been “atrocious”, in fact, I imagine it may even have been lauded as the proper thing to do.

 

You then suggest, obliquely, that some people here are raciest and would have gladly participated in escorting the group off the train.

 

And yes, I have been part of such a group.

 

Loud, obnoxious, rude and pretty much into our cups, we discovered if you all, as a group, get in the rear portion of a 727, and everyone runs forward at the same time; the nose of the aircraft will dip, a lot!

 

And if you then run to the back, it rises.

 

I thought the second officer was going to have a stroke or a heart attack!

 

Delta refused to ever book our group again, and had airport police escort us off the plane when we landed.

 

Totally deserved, and we understood why.

 

[BaltACD]

edblysard

schlimm

Paul3

Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train.  The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women.

To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way.  Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud?  Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay.  Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't?  Heck no, not okay.  Now I'm ticked.  Now I want action taken.

Again, why did the NVWT lie?  What made this group of women different?  So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior?  Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off?  Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right)  Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women?

I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?

Paul A. Cutler III

Sadly, Paul, you have to realize that there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions had they been part of the NVWT crew.

I wonder how many folks here would find it acceptable to be told your group is too loud and then be marched through the length of the train to get off with the police waiting as though they had committed some crime?

Your use of the word atrocious defines the issue, clarifies that it is indeed about race.

If this had been a group of mid-level white businessmen, it would never have made the news, much less attracted attention here.

It certainly would not have been “atrocious”, in fact, I imagine it may even have been lauded as the proper thing to do.

You then suggest, obliquely, that some people here are raciest and would have gladly participated in escorting the group off the train.

And yes, I have been part of such a group.

Loud, obnoxious, rude and pretty much into our cups, we discovered if you all, as a group, get in the rear portion of a 727, and everyone runs forward at the same time; the nose of the aircraft will dip, a lot!

And if you then run to the back, it rises.

I thought the second officer was going to have a stroke or a heart attack!

Delta refused to ever book our group again, and had airport police escort us off the plane when we landed.

Totally deserved, and we understood why.

After you sobered up.

[schlimm]

edblysard

 

 

schlimm

 

Paul3

Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train.  The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women.

To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way.  Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud?  Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay.  Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't?  Heck no, not okay.  Now I'm ticked.  Now I want action taken.

Again, why did the NVWT lie?  What made this group of women different?  So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior?  Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off?  Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right)  Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women?

I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?

Paul A. Cutler III

 

 

 

 

Sadly, Paul, you have to realize that there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions had they been part of the NVWT crew.

I wonder how many folks here would find it acceptable to be told your group is too loud and then be marched through the length of the train to get off with the police waiting as though they had committed some crime?

 

 

 

 

Your use of the word atrocious defines the issue, clarifies that it is indeed about race.

 

If this had been a group of mid-level white businessmen, it would never have made the news, much less attracted attention here.

 

It certainly would not have been “atrocious”, in fact, I imagine it may even have been lauded as the proper thing to do.

 

You then suggest, obliquely, that some people here are raciest and would have gladly participated in escorting the group off the train.

 

And yes, I have been part of such a group.

 

Loud, obnoxious, rude and pretty much into our cups, we discovered if you all, as a group, get in the rear portion of a 727, and everyone runs forward at the same time; the nose of the aircraft will dip, a lot!

 

And if you then run to the back, it rises.

 

I thought the second officer was going to have a stroke or a heart attack!

 

Delta refused to ever book our group again, and had airport police escort us off the plane when we landed.

 

Totally deserved, and we understood why.

 

 

Perhaps if you actually read what the CEO had said, you would not make such a comment.  Since when does "atrocious" define that the issue is about race?  Nor did I say, whether directly or obliquely, that some people here are "raciest."  You seem to read that into the remarks.

I also do not like loud, noisy, drunken groups.  I avoid them.   I seldom drink alcohol and do not go to bars.  To each his own.   However, you seem to be oblivious to a major point.  The CEO said  “Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Your story of drunks on an airplane really is not analogous.

What is atrocious is marching a group of people down the aisle of a party train (in business to serve alcohol), and forcing them off to exit to a police reception, whether they were a group of black book club women or Asian, male hedge fund managers or a white Gay Pride group.