Grab the cars from whichever end you can and drag them off the bridge.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
I have seen bridges with no walkways. How does a knuckle get replaced on such a bridge?
Euclid edblysard BaltACD There appear to be a number of posters on recreational pharmacuticals in judging the speed with which a knuckle can be replaced by ANYONE in the size trains that are being operated by today's Class 1 railroads. There are numerous rule compliance reasons for the length of time taken for the repair as well as the distances that have to be negotiated between crew location and the location of the incident within the train. Mentioning a broken knuckle is just a easily identifed action - there are any number of other issues that have to be inspected and rectified in the operation of today's trains - hand brakes still applied, sticking air brakes, broken air hoses, leaking trainlines, inspection for defect detector activations etc. etc. etc. Talk of 3rd party 'on immediate call' contractors is ludricous. Who is going to set up a vehicle supplied with 24/7 driver/technician protection and all the necessary repair items stationed strategically approximately every 50 miles along Main Track routes to provide 'reasonable' response times and charge a price that will return a profit and cover the investments into equipment, manpower, insurance and fringe benefits. And I an sure that on Balt's railroad, just like mine, there are roads that run beside every single track, the entire route, to allow the Fast Action Response Team guys to get right there in minutes. The One Hour Knuckle Team will use compact, rubber track vehicles that can go anywhere a person can walk. I suspect that the team will start with a drone flight to quickly locate the break so they can decide how to get there on land.
edblysard BaltACD There appear to be a number of posters on recreational pharmacuticals in judging the speed with which a knuckle can be replaced by ANYONE in the size trains that are being operated by today's Class 1 railroads. There are numerous rule compliance reasons for the length of time taken for the repair as well as the distances that have to be negotiated between crew location and the location of the incident within the train. Mentioning a broken knuckle is just a easily identifed action - there are any number of other issues that have to be inspected and rectified in the operation of today's trains - hand brakes still applied, sticking air brakes, broken air hoses, leaking trainlines, inspection for defect detector activations etc. etc. etc. Talk of 3rd party 'on immediate call' contractors is ludricous. Who is going to set up a vehicle supplied with 24/7 driver/technician protection and all the necessary repair items stationed strategically approximately every 50 miles along Main Track routes to provide 'reasonable' response times and charge a price that will return a profit and cover the investments into equipment, manpower, insurance and fringe benefits. And I an sure that on Balt's railroad, just like mine, there are roads that run beside every single track, the entire route, to allow the Fast Action Response Team guys to get right there in minutes.
BaltACD There appear to be a number of posters on recreational pharmacuticals in judging the speed with which a knuckle can be replaced by ANYONE in the size trains that are being operated by today's Class 1 railroads. There are numerous rule compliance reasons for the length of time taken for the repair as well as the distances that have to be negotiated between crew location and the location of the incident within the train. Mentioning a broken knuckle is just a easily identifed action - there are any number of other issues that have to be inspected and rectified in the operation of today's trains - hand brakes still applied, sticking air brakes, broken air hoses, leaking trainlines, inspection for defect detector activations etc. etc. etc. Talk of 3rd party 'on immediate call' contractors is ludricous. Who is going to set up a vehicle supplied with 24/7 driver/technician protection and all the necessary repair items stationed strategically approximately every 50 miles along Main Track routes to provide 'reasonable' response times and charge a price that will return a profit and cover the investments into equipment, manpower, insurance and fringe benefits.
There appear to be a number of posters on recreational pharmacuticals in judging the speed with which a knuckle can be replaced by ANYONE in the size trains that are being operated by today's Class 1 railroads.
There are numerous rule compliance reasons for the length of time taken for the repair as well as the distances that have to be negotiated between crew location and the location of the incident within the train. Mentioning a broken knuckle is just a easily identifed action - there are any number of other issues that have to be inspected and rectified in the operation of today's trains - hand brakes still applied, sticking air brakes, broken air hoses, leaking trainlines, inspection for defect detector activations etc. etc. etc.
Talk of 3rd party 'on immediate call' contractors is ludricous. Who is going to set up a vehicle supplied with 24/7 driver/technician protection and all the necessary repair items stationed strategically approximately every 50 miles along Main Track routes to provide 'reasonable' response times and charge a price that will return a profit and cover the investments into equipment, manpower, insurance and fringe benefits.
And I an sure that on Balt's railroad, just like mine, there are roads that run beside every single track, the entire route, to allow the Fast Action Response Team guys to get right there in minutes.
The One Hour Knuckle Team will use compact, rubber track vehicles that can go anywhere a person can walk. I suspect that the team will start with a drone flight to quickly locate the break so they can decide how to get there on land.
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The places where an on-call service contractor can get to easier than the conductor can are the same places that already existing car inspectors/mechanical personnel can get to. They do have access to pickup and utility trucks and do go out to perform work on cars that require more skill and tools than a conductor has. Hell, even most management types carry basic tools and knucles in their trucks if they are smart.
For remote places, it will take anybody (unless they drop in from a helicopter) more time to replace a knuckle than it would a decent conductor to do same. And the longest part is the walking involved. Even the lowly trainmaster trainee with a Ford Explorer can usually help with that, provided there's some sort of road or trail nearby. You don't need a multi-thousand dollar service contract.
EuclidThe One Hour Knuckle Team will use compact, rubber track vehicles that can go anywhere a person can walk. I suspect that the team will start with a drone flight to quickly locate the break so they can decide how to get there on land.
Only in model railroading would that stand a chance.
Norm
BaltACDDream on buttercup!
Ah yes... a 3rd party contractor to replace knuckles... where every employee is the head of his territory for fast service... call us and we will send a Knuckle Head out right away!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Dream on buttercup!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Euclid Paul, What would be accomplished is the time saved by quicker replacement of the knuckle, including getting the knuckle to the break. Is that really just a small step in the whole process, as you say? Removing the broken knuckle and installing the new one is a small step. Assessing the situation, coming up with a plan to get the knuckle to the break, and executing that plan seems like a much larger step. But let's consider the example cited by BaltACD. What is the time breakdown for the details of spending 3 hours fixing a broken knuckle.
Paul,
What would be accomplished is the time saved by quicker replacement of the knuckle, including getting the knuckle to the break. Is that really just a small step in the whole process, as you say? Removing the broken knuckle and installing the new one is a small step. Assessing the situation, coming up with a plan to get the knuckle to the break, and executing that plan seems like a much larger step. But let's consider the example cited by BaltACD. What is the time breakdown for the details of spending 3 hours fixing a broken knuckle.
I understand from discussions here that spare knuckles are carried on the locomotives. Can an outside contractor get one there quicker? Maybe we can impose on one of the professionals here to give us a rough idea of the times involved for the steps in the procedure.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Wizlish dehusman This of course Assumes that knuckles are breaking more now than they wer in years past. Do you have any data to support that? (spoiler alert : overall knuckle failures have decreased over the years) But hold on a moment: we've been gabbling for weeks about how trains are getting longer and longer recently as profitability in the post-coal post-China-financial-kerfuffle era begins to slide. The BaltACD story that led to this exchange mentions an untoward number of near-simultaneous knuckle failures, and I for one would be entirely unsurprised to find a spate of these failures as an 'unanticipated consequence' of running longer trains. But yes, I fully expect to see this reflected in statistics. Once a proper base of data on current operations has made its way into them...
dehusman This of course Assumes that knuckles are breaking more now than they wer in years past. Do you have any data to support that? (spoiler alert : overall knuckle failures have decreased over the years)
(spoiler alert : overall knuckle failures have decreased over the years)
But hold on a moment: we've been gabbling for weeks about how trains are getting longer and longer recently as profitability in the post-coal post-China-financial-kerfuffle era begins to slide. The BaltACD story that led to this exchange mentions an untoward number of near-simultaneous knuckle failures, and I for one would be entirely unsurprised to find a spate of these failures as an 'unanticipated consequence' of running longer trains.
But yes, I fully expect to see this reflected in statistics. Once a proper base of data on current operations has made its way into them...
While Balt's night was horrific, it was just one night. I have had nights like those, however I would guess it has been well over 2 months since I have had a broken knuckle on my desk. That includes running plenty of those new 20000 ton, 13000 foot trains.
An "expensive model collector"
Does Mr. Husman have a citation for data to support his contention? Why not share it?
But that ignores the question of why couplers break. It also ignores the enormous cost of delays, as well as eventual lost business.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Euclid, I just don't get your logic. The train crew are there. They have to walk to the location of the broken knuckle. After the repair they still have to put the train back together and do a brake test. The replacement of the knuckle is only one small step. What would be accomplished by having to wait for someone else to come out and replace the knuckle?
Wizlish But is anyone going to want to pay what it would cost me to deliver that level of 'service with a smile'? Probably not. And regardless of volume or the costing-down of capital and training, it will never be possible to deliver that level of service at a rate railroads would be willing to pay.
But is anyone going to want to pay what it would cost me to deliver that level of 'service with a smile'? Probably not. And regardless of volume or the costing-down of capital and training, it will never be possible to deliver that level of service at a rate railroads would be willing to pay.
The big problem I see is in the required rapid response. There is a certain lag in discovering the problem, then another in getting it reported to the point where action is authorized (as opposed to the crew just starting to tie the train down and start walking the consist), and then figuring out where the train is, where the break is, how to get to it, and going there. Only then can you figure out how long it's going to take to get someone there ... and how long to get them safely ready in place, with tools and PPE, to actually begin work.
In the absence of practical hypersonics, that means a fixed staff of not inconsiderable size 'on call' at every hour, with Murphy doing his best to ensure it will be cold, dark, and sleeting when the hour arrives.
Now reverse the process, and the lags, to get the special crew out again, now without any particular incentive to go really fast if there isn't another call waiting for them.
Note how ugly the logistics gets when you have one response crew and five knuckles broken on multiple trains.
Note that none of this argues there can't be crews that 'help' with road failures -- just that they aren't going to do rapid response that is 'rapid' enough to beat what railroads already pay for with two-man crews.
Frankly, I'm astounded that no one has brought up ECP in this context yet, as it (or something like it) promises to reduce many of the incidents that wind up pulling knuckles or breaking draft gear. I also have to wonder if there is a reason to provide knuckles on some of the cars in the train, in boxes like the ones on locomotives used for the rerailing frogs. That would cut the worst part of a crew repair -- the need to lug the heavy piece down the ballast prism and over bridges without walkways, or run the movable piece of the train forward and back to position the heavy piece, before an actual repair can be made.
(Yes, there are problems with the latter, ranging from vandalism to accounting for whose knuckle goes on whose car. I won't list all the ones I've thought of. The point I want to make is that net of all problems, putting knuckles on every xth car may still be cheaper and better than a flying-squad repair service model.)
This one-hour knuckle service reminds me of the current trouble finding nurses.
Can I fugure out a way to deliver even a heavy knuckle to a given site, with reasonable safety, and with any tools and supplies needed if I find (say) that some other part is galled or bent? Probably. But is anyone going to want to pay what it would cost me to deliver that level of 'service with a smile'? Probably not. And regardless of volume or the costing-down of capital and training, it will never be possible to deliver that level of service at a rate railroads would be willing to pay. (Even if you carefully explain all the costs and implications of tying up the railroad while your on-the-law crew does manual labor between the cars.)
There may be times when the engineering equivalent of Life-Flight is justified. There may be times when helicoptering a replacement crew to a train, or driving the special Brandt-style maintenance truck 100 mph to the rescue, would be justified. But those occasions are likely to be fewer and farther between than pulled knuckles.
I'd be interested to see what Hulcher might put together as a service model for 'outsourcing' this kind of comparatively light emergency repairs. They have at least the capability to leverage some of the specialized equipment needed, and could find tax offsets to help acquire or maintain it, too.
dehusman Euclid I am serious about an independent contract knuckle service. They would not run the train or pump air. But they would get the knuckle to the break and replace it. There would be no railroad crewmen walking the train, carrying knuckles, or moving the train to get the knuckle switched. The point would be to get the knuckle job down to less than an hour from break to resumption of travel. That ought to be worth $7500 per incident, thus plenty of incentive for One Hour Knuckle to get the job done. And that would mean they would have to be less than about 15" from the site, that allows 20" to get into the actual location of the knuckle and then 15-20" to fix it. How are you going to station people so they are 15" from any point on any railroad ? How are you going to get people into spots with no roads? It would be like calling a contract derailment cleanup service like Hulcher. And Hulcher can take anywhere from 1-8 hours to get on site, then an hour to be workwise.
Euclid I am serious about an independent contract knuckle service. They would not run the train or pump air. But they would get the knuckle to the break and replace it. There would be no railroad crewmen walking the train, carrying knuckles, or moving the train to get the knuckle switched. The point would be to get the knuckle job down to less than an hour from break to resumption of travel. That ought to be worth $7500 per incident, thus plenty of incentive for One Hour Knuckle to get the job done.
It would be like calling a contract derailment cleanup service like Hulcher.
dehusmanThis of course Assumes that knuckles are breaking more now than they wer in years past. Do you have any data to support that? (spoiler alert : overall knuckle failures have decreased over the years)
schlimmCould that also be a major factor in why knuckles break - too much force because of the slack inherent in longer trains? Another factor could be quality control in the knuckles themselves, not the design but the materials used in manufacture. Where are they manufactured in recent years?
This of course Assumes that knuckles are breaking more now than they wer in years past. Do you have any data to support that?
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
abdklPresuming the number crunchers include any penalty time for broken knuckles & other UDEs that occur at the rear half of the consist....wouldn't a rear end crew (???!!) with spare knuckles mean less walk time for some train walks?
Wonderful suggestion. Unfortunately most knuckle failures are towards the head end of the train, where the in train forces are highest. If the knuckle is more than a few cars ahead of the caboose, I'd drop a knuckle off the head end, pull the train by, then either fix the knuckle if it was on the trailing end of the car or load the knuckle on the rear car and shove it back to to the rear portion (if it was on the leading end of the car). Nobody's going to haul a knuckle more than a car length or two.
BaltACDWith the slack in the size trains that are being run, slack action could be a real killer to inhabitants of a caboose - even if they were belted in.
Could that also be a major factor in why knuckles break - too much force because of the slack inherent in longer trains?
Another factor could be quality control in the knuckles themselves, not the design but the materials used in manufacture. Where are they manufactured in recent years?
schlimm In Balt's example, I counted at least 11 hours of trains standing still. Additionally, other trains were delayed or also standing still. How much per hour (on average) does it cost the railroad to have trains just sitting around? Multiply that times how number of hours times how many trains per day times times 365. My hunch is that it is a lot of money. Dave Husman may think the knuckles are fine but more than one rail engineer has suggested to me quite the contrary.
In Balt's example, I counted at least 11 hours of trains standing still. Additionally, other trains were delayed or also standing still. How much per hour (on average) does it cost the railroad to have trains just sitting around? Multiply that times how number of hours times how many trains per day times times 365. My hunch is that it is a lot of money.
Dave Husman may think the knuckles are fine but more than one rail engineer has suggested to me quite the contrary.
If the were still alive. With the slack in the size trains that are being run, slack action could be a real killer to inhabitants of a caboose - even if they were belted in.
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