Looks like Frac Sand is a good business ...
http://www.worldoil.com/news/2015/7/06/unimin-makes-history-by-shipping-longest-frac-sand-unit-train-on-record
"Unimin, together with Union Pacific Railroad and Twin Eagle Sand Logistics, LLC, delivered a 140 car unit train to the Mission Rail Terminal in the heart of the Eagle Ford shale at Elmendorf, Texas. The unit train, powered by four diesel engines and measuring 6,200 ft, is the largest single frac sand rail delivery on record."
CatFoodFlambe Jeff - years ago, a lot of truckloads of food product on the agriculture side left Western origins with just a nominal destination - "call me from Columbus and I'll give you the deliveries". Did, or does, meat move in similar fashion? If so, it would be virtually impossible to move this to rail unless you consigned a refrigerated container to, say, Harrisburg and arranged the dray around the final destinations.
Jeff - years ago, a lot of truckloads of food product on the agriculture side left Western origins with just a nominal destination - "call me from Columbus and I'll give you the deliveries". Did, or does, meat move in similar fashion? If so, it would be virtually impossible to move this to rail unless you consigned a refrigerated container to, say, Harrisburg and arranged the dray around the final destinations.
When I worked at IBP, they didn't have a commercial line of meat. All they processed was for others to repackage and for some items, to further process. Since I left, and before Tyson, they did start marketing some cuts under the IBP name. Tyson of course, sells under their own brand.
I'm guessing, but the pork (and probably the beef plants) may still only be set up for the slaughter and basic processing. Some items may be packaged for retail sale while others are shipped for further processing at other facilities. When I worked there, all products were going to the buyers or other IBP facilities. It's not to say it wasn't or isn't done, but everything we sent out of there that I knew of (One job I had for awhile when they were short handed was billing out trucks. My main job for most of my time there was the plant inventory clerk.) was going somewhere specific. Nothing on speculation, so to speak.
Jeff
Ulrich Maybe UP and BNSF don't want it for any number of reasons. Otherwise its simply a matter of making a phone call and maybe sending in a sales rep.
Maybe UP and BNSF don't want it for any number of reasons. Otherwise its simply a matter of making a phone call and maybe sending in a sales rep.
It's a lot more than that. One of the advantages the truckers have is a short chain of command. This makes coordination and cooperation simple compared to a corporate bureaucracy such as the UP. The UP does not now have the service in place for this business. It's going to have to be set up and I'll virturally gurantee you the operating department is going to fight this every step of the way.
The operating people are not responsible for corporate income. They're resonsible for staying within their budget and a gross ton miles per train hour figure. The service required by this business will affect both of those negatively. The money this brings in will be of no concern to the operating people. They are not measured on income, just costs.
This business will require UPS on time standards. The railroads have proven they can do that. But it's not going to start with a large volume. The UP will have to prove itself before the volumes come. This will drive the operating people (and the accountants) nuts. But building volume in a competitive market is the way things happen.
This is a great opportunity for the UP, but they're going to have to over ride internal dissention to get it done. Westbound loads for perishable freight are a key to successful development of the eastbound fruit and vegetables produced on the west coast. There is a huge volume of long haul freight here to be had.
It's just that the UP doesn't have the corporate culture to develop such a market. (Niether does the BNSF)
I agree with Ulrich. I'll bet railroads do have their reasons. At the same time, I hate to see them so limiting themselves.
For Gawd's sake, railroads used to haul about everything that moved. I have to think that, given the changing realities on the highways, it could almost be that way again. I think, with Greyhounds, their slowness is partly a habit left over from the bad old ICC days.
As G. also says, there might be plenty of bright people who'd like to try ... but are afraid it could be a career killer.
A lot of rail carried products are reconsigned and diverted in route - normally products from the Left Coast are shipped East without a confirmed ultimate buyer, the products are normally shipped to the shipper at some point East of Chicago. While the shipment is in transit the shipper secures a ultimate consignee, when the car reaches Chicago orders are issued to the railroads to reconsign and divert the car to the ultimate consignee. A nominal charge is applied by the railroad for the reconsignment and diversion and freight charges are applied from Orign to ultimate desination.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
It's probably a bit more than that. Before hiring out, I worked for IBP in Perry, IA. The majority of the loads went out through a handful of truckload carriers. Most were small regional carriers, and I think IBP (or maybe Tyson) even bought one of the carriers. None of them used intermodal. (There were a few intermodal loads that left the plant under the Nippon banner destined for Japan. Although IBP processed product for Nippon, Nippon bought the hogs and arranged the transportation for their stuff. All domestic stuff was IBP and separate from Nippon.)
I would imagine to get that business, a railroad is also going to have to arrange equipment and the movement from the plant to the railhead. (Council Bluffs for UP and I believe Omaha for BNSF.) I would think it would have to be done through a third party. To me this is more of the retail side of transportation, and we've discussed before how the railroads now have the wholesaler attitude.
greyhounds And Tyson alone has 300 truckloads per week from the Sioux City area to the west coast. UP knows this but doesn't have a clue as to how to develop the market. And remember, an empty reefer on the west coast is an opportunity for an eastbound transcon load.
And Tyson alone has 300 truckloads per week from the Sioux City area to the west coast. UP knows this but doesn't have a clue as to how to develop the market.
And remember, an empty reefer on the west coast is an opportunity for an eastbound transcon load.
It is not only UP problem. That plant is located along the BNSF Sioux City/Lincoln line (UP has track rights), so service by them is equally feasible.
In addition a new hog plant has been announced for a nearby industrial park served by the UP. It will come on line in 2017 with a one shift capacity of 10k to 12k head/day.
MP173 Enormous amount of power parked at Baily Yard in North Platte. Ed
Enormous amount of power parked at Baily Yard in North Platte.
Ed
Pretty close. We are a very greedy group. You really can't have it both ways.
There are signs of pushback against some imports. The tool & die industry has begun to return due to the absolute trash China was sending here. It created a pretty good amount of rework on brand new dies trying to get them to function correctly. Even Walmart is even starting to buy a few american made items, though I still refuse to walk into a business that has a department thats purpose is to match you up with a Chinese company to make your item for you.
And the other side of the equation is rampant consumerism.. we all rail against cheap foreign products but how many of us avoid shopping at Walmart or Target? We really want the best of both worlds... top wages from our employers and Walmart prices for everything we buy. In other words.. I should have a good wage, but the person who makes my shoes and slacks should live in poverty.
You guys ever watch the TV Series "Shark Tank". Part of the reason Manufacturing will never return to the United States is the minute an American comes up with an invention.......patented or not. Someone in Asia rips it off and sells pirate copies at below U.S. cost to manufacture and exports it back to the United States.
To me that is a problem with the trade agreements and unpunished lack of enforcement of our patent laws. It's sad. Until they fix that issue, Manufacturing will never return to this country to any appreciable degree until the cost of living and cost of labor in Asia rises above what it is in the United States.
Having said that I think they should at least allow us to export Powder River Basin Coal because it is a lot cleaner burning Coal than the Coal they burn elsewhere.
There's still manufacturing here. My own customers are primarily steel mills in Canada and the USA.. all made here, with North American labor and at North American pay rates. I love visiting these steel mills... they are the model of efficiency and very profitable. Most of the steel we move goes to other manufacturers in Canada and the US... mostly steel fabrication plants, some for the auto industry, but there sure seem to be more than a few steel places around that are prospering. For some reason the Chinese and the Mexicans haven't taken that over, and steel industry wages are for the most part pretty good albeit very much tied to performance. I don't know why we can make steel products yet toothpaste and toys and clothing need to be made in low wage countries.. Maybe because heavy industry has escaped the clutches of aggessive big box store buyers.
tree68 Those parts of the world that we're buying containers-ful of products from aren't currently dealing with those same pressures. You can bet, though, that if China paid manufacturing workers the equivalent of $15/hr, instead of less than $3/hr, that we probably wouldn't be buying anywhere near what we do from them...
Those parts of the world that we're buying containers-ful of products from aren't currently dealing with those same pressures. You can bet, though, that if China paid manufacturing workers the equivalent of $15/hr, instead of less than $3/hr, that we probably wouldn't be buying anywhere near what we do from them...
They I guess we would have to start making stuff ourselves again.
I remember reading articles some years back about jobs leaving Mexico and going to China/Asia because companies felt they were paying Mexicans too much.
tree68 Ulrich Why can't we make our own toys and toothpaste?
Ulrich Why can't we make our own toys and toothpaste?
Can't agree. Our politicians, Republican and Democratic, priced us out of the market with their lousy trade deals. What, exactly, would have been wrong with a little protectionist ring around the U.S. and our formerly superior standard of living? This is what I will never understand.
Twenty years of "free trade" have brought our economy to the pretty pass we're talking about. If free trade were so great, why are we still running a half-trillion annual trade deficit, with 94 percent of the world's population to sell to?
Think of the national wealth that has been lost to overseas, especially to China, which buys missiles pointed at us -- along with U.S. companies -- with its trade surplus.
Politicians are many things except dumb, which makes me think we've been sold out.
BOB WITHORN Unfortunatly it's too late for the replacement plant in Bay City Consumers wanted to build. Much cleaner than the existing plant but the environmentists had Gov. Barbie on their side at the time and she pushed through a law requiring 10% of power to come from windmills and solar. UP and BNSF won't be sending many coal trains to Michigan.
Unfortunatly it's too late for the replacement plant in Bay City Consumers wanted to build. Much cleaner than the existing plant but the environmentists had Gov. Barbie on their side at the time and she pushed through a law requiring 10% of power to come from windmills and solar. UP and BNSF won't be sending many coal trains to Michigan.
Most states have renewable portfoleo standards.
http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=4850
Some even higher than Michigan. There is not a lot of investor interest in building new coal fired power plants. Investors are flocking to alternative energy projects with their tax incentives.
Ulrich It's a cost thing Bob, and it bugs me too. Sending trash by truck across an international border. This is happening for a number of reasons.. controls in Ontario, a good deal courtesy of the state of Michigan, and overall shortsightedness by all involved. What a colossal waste of resources.. at least rail it, and preferrably to site within the same jursidiction.
It's a cost thing Bob, and it bugs me too. Sending trash by truck across an international border. This is happening for a number of reasons.. controls in Ontario, a good deal courtesy of the state of Michigan, and overall shortsightedness by all involved. What a colossal waste of resources.. at least rail it, and preferrably to site within the same jursidiction.
There was local opposition to taking trash from outside the area, however, the landfill companies claimed restraint of commerce. If the landfill meets environmental standards, they can take any permitted type of material.
tree68 ouibejamn Does that include railroad employees? Transportation is certainly part of the cost of everything. I'm waiting to hear anybody on this site say they make too much money and deserve a pay cut. Fast food workers wages are no where near the main concern in our ability to compete on the world market. Everything is related, and it's circular. We're able to spend $X on a house because we make $Y. Ditto vehicles, and pretty much everything else. Labor is a major cost in the production of pretty much everything, so when labor costs go up, so does the price of what that labor produces. Of course, then people see their "real" income go down, so they want more money so they can afford the standard of living to which they've become accustomed. They get raises, and .... I blame part of the problem on the period when folks insisted on increases in pay that far exceeded that which was necessary to maintain their standard of living. We won't get into fat cat types who get paid insane wages and/or take their money off-shore, etc, and so on. Those parts of the world that we're buying containers-ful of products from aren't currently dealing with those same pressures. You can bet, though, that if China paid manufacturing workers the equivalent of $15/hr, instead of less than $3/hr, that we probably wouldn't be buying anywhere near what we do from them...
ouibejamn Does that include railroad employees? Transportation is certainly part of the cost of everything. I'm waiting to hear anybody on this site say they make too much money and deserve a pay cut. Fast food workers wages are no where near the main concern in our ability to compete on the world market.
Everything is related, and it's circular. We're able to spend $X on a house because we make $Y. Ditto vehicles, and pretty much everything else. Labor is a major cost in the production of pretty much everything, so when labor costs go up, so does the price of what that labor produces.
Of course, then people see their "real" income go down, so they want more money so they can afford the standard of living to which they've become accustomed. They get raises, and ....
I blame part of the problem on the period when folks insisted on increases in pay that far exceeded that which was necessary to maintain their standard of living.
We won't get into fat cat types who get paid insane wages and/or take their money off-shore, etc, and so on.
tree68I blame part of the problem on the period when folks insisted on increases in pay that far exceeded that which was necessary to maintain their standard of living.
Agreed, but that's a can of worms I don't even want to think about opening. Can you imagine labor negotiatiations based on need, rather than what ever you can get away with? Many states are finding pension liabilities negotiated during cheaper times finally coming home to roost.
ouibejamnDoes that include railroad employees? Transportation is certainly part of the cost of everything. I'm waiting to hear anybody on this site say they make too much money and deserve a pay cut. Fast food workers wages are no where near the main concern in our ability to compete on the world market.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I agree Fred, I really don't think Greece is all that important apart from perhaps being the tip of the default iceburg. Italy and Spain won't be far behind, and then we're looking at trillions, not billions, anymore. And then who knows what effect these massive defaults will have on the world as a whole and on markets.
tree68 we've priced ourselves out of the labor market
Does that include railroad employees? Transportation is certainly part of the cost of everything. I'm waiting to hear anybody on this site say they make too much money and deserve a pay cut. Fast food workers wages are no where near the main concern in our ability to compete on the world market. But on a rail related website are an easy target.
Ulrich UP is doing fine.. stock up today which is notable given the issues with Greece. I would have expected investors to sell off in droves.. maybe that's still coming.
UP is doing fine.. stock up today which is notable given the issues with Greece. I would have expected investors to sell off in droves.. maybe that's still coming.
Ulrich, that sell-off was last week -- Dow Jones losing c. 350 on Thursday or Friday. Already people are over it. Greece is about as important to UP as it is to the European Union, which is to say not very. The EU will be better off without this deadbeat that makes little (except maybe government paper) and buys less.
UlrichWhy can't we make our own toys and toothpaste?
We can't afford to - we've priced ourselves out of the labor market. Unskilled labor (fast food) now wants $15 an hour - as much as we pay some paramedics. A manufacturing employee in a Chinese urban area got $2.85 an hour in 2009. Only in Europe are wages as high as here. In much of the rest of the world, manufacturing wages are about 20% of US wages.
http://www.bls.gov/fls/china.htm
Other states are dumping here as well. Because of NAFTA the state claims it can't refuse it from Ontario and the dump owners won't raise their prices because they might lose some business. Oh well, I'm moving to Indiana anyway.
So was it just cheaper to dump your trash in Michigan or does Ontario have some tough rules about having landfills. Always bugs me to see the Canadian plates on trash trucks in the Flint area dumps with lakes all around the trash mountains.
That would be bad news for the railroads and their shareholders at least temporarily. But looking at the big picture does it makes sense to ship all of that stuff from Asia to begin with? Why can't we make our own toys and toothpaste? There's a whole lot of superfluous transportation out there that makes no sense at all.. I'll add to the list with trucking bottled water out of California.. (its happening now believe it or not) trucking garbage through Canada's biggest city to landfills in Michigan.. the container deal from Asia falls in the same category.. or maybe making plastic chairs and toothpicks is now beyond our capabilities and we have to get that stuff from China and India.
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