http://www.businessinsider.com/when-simply-taking-the-train-is-deemed-suspicious-behavior-2015-5
Sure is a good thing that we live in the "land of the free".
Think it's bad on Amtrak? You should see what they do to private pilots departing the southwestern states for destinations in the North and Midwest. Many innocent folks have been greeted at gunpoint upon landing at their destination or a fuel stop along the way. It's profiling and Gestapo tactics pure and simple.
Norm
Take this for what it's worth...
I used to have a lot of friends and aquaintances in the law enforcement community. The word was the DEA personnel were the bottom of the barrel as far as Federal law enforcement were concerned, i.e. they were the ones who couldn't make it in the FBI, the BATF, the Secret Service, and other agencies.
Not that the local cops I knew had much use for the Feds anyway. Their opinions went like this:
The FBI: Great lawyers and scientists, lousy cops.
The BATF: Great bookkeepers, lousy cops.
The others didn't matter.
Again, take it for what it's worth. And if I've offended anyone I sincerely apologize, just passing on what I heard years ago.
We're also only hearing one side of the story, as well.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Most of these type actions revolve around the concept of 'civil forfeiture' which is being used against 'organized' drug operations - with dire consequences to civil liberties of innocents. This is happening in all forms of transportation - public and private.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I don't believe that there can be any doubt that the impact of enforcement in the war on drugs has become in every way worse than the evil it was designed to irradicate.
Based on numerous accounts over time, I've come to the conclusion that some "law enforcement officers" (I use the term loosely in this case) view civil forfeiture laws as a bank from which they can make withdrawals. Need some money for some new wizbang? Just bust some "suspicious" individual and keep what he's got - fancy car, wad of cash in his wallet, you-name-it.
It doesn't matter that he pays his employees in cash and just came from the bank after picking up the payroll (which used to be a very common practice). If he's carrying a large amount of money, he "must" be a drug dealer...
That's not to say that all LEOs are similarly corrupt - but it only takes a few to besmirch the reputations of the many.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
It requires an adjustment in your thinking. But suppose -- just suppose -- the federal government has become our active enemy. That would make their various cops, in whatever department, its enforcers -- and also our enemies.
A couple of happenings in the 1990s -- Ruby Ridge, Waco -- changed forever the way I look at federal cops. They're no better than the political hacks, imperfectly trained in the Bill of Rights, who direct them.
Amtrak? The least of our police problems.
Well let's not go TOO far! I for one don't consider Federal law enforcement personnel "the enemy."
This is not to excuse the ones that are lacking in common sense, are "badge heavy", have too much of a "us versus them" worldview, or are what we used to call in the Marines "overly motivated." Every big organization's bound to have some losers in it who just slip through the cracks.
The thing is, when those losers are discovered they've got to be firmly dealt with, at least for the benefit of all the other concientious ones.
By the way, I'm surprised Amtraks own police put up with intrusions from other agencies. "Hey, this is OUR turf! Beat it!"
dakotafred It requires an adjustment in your thinking. But suppose -- just suppose -- the federal government has become our active enemy. That would make their various cops, in whatever department, its enforcers -- and also our enemies. A couple of happenings in the 1990s -- Ruby Ridge, Waco -- changed forever the way I look at federal cops. They're no better than the political hacks, imperfectly trained in the Bill of Rights, who direct them. Amtrak? The least of our police problems.
Waco was kicked off by a bunch of ATF "wannabe" macho knuckleheads who were trying to prove they were just as good as any other law enforcement agency. The guy they were after went to the ice cream shop every day, for pity's sake. ATF created a mess which the FBI tried to clean up, and that wasn't handled well either. It was embarrassing to be a Fed in those days.
dakotafredIt requires an adjustment in your thinking. But suppose -- just suppose -- the federal government has become our active enemy. That would make their various cops, in whatever department, its enforcers -- and also our enemies
To what extent have the results of all this policing been effective? Any statistics?
Firelock76The thing is, when those losers are discovered they've got to be firmly dealt with, at least for the benefit of all the other concientious ones.
That's really the worst part of it. When there is police wrongdoing, it is generally reviewed from within, and (seemingly) 99% of the time they cover their own, with determinations that involved officers acted within their "duty".
Sorry, But I've been the victim of "probable cause"less searches too often to believe that "just a few bad eggs" cause most of the problems.
Assembling probable cause from facts that were only discovered during a wrongful search, is a standard of operation which the judges seem only too happy to overlook if it gets them a nice juicy statistic.
I have no issues with searches or enforcement.. its the world we live in now and these folks have a job to do. Some could be a little friendlier though.. but what the heck.. I don't let it ruin my day. It's a tough call.. if the bad guys all had horns and fangs it would be so much easier.
Ulrich I have no issues with searches or enforcement.. its the world we live in now and these folks have a job to do. Some could be a little friendlier though.. but what the heck.. I don't let it ruin my day. It's a tough call.. if the bad guys all had horns and fangs it would be so much easier.
But when the bad guys wear badges.......
It's amazing how many people are willing to surrender their rights in order to gain some apparent safety. I can remember talking with a person who liked the arrangement in a Fascist state since he wouldn't have to worry about crime.
Not surrendering anything. Just choosing my battles. If its a search by a police officer or someone else who is clearly identified as law enforcement I'll put up with the inconvenience. What's the alternative? Getting mad and arguing won't change anything and will likely make matters worse. It's not as if I'm searched every day either.. I've gone through it a handful of times in 15 years. I don't object to airport searches either for the same reason. I think the longest search lasted 10 minutes..I was in a rental car in SC and a state trooper pulled me over. He asked for my license and passport.. asked me about my business in the US and then sent me on my way.. big deal.
BaltACD Ulrich I have no issues with searches or enforcement.. its the world we live in now and these folks have a job to do. Some could be a little friendlier though.. but what the heck.. I don't let it ruin my day. It's a tough call.. if the bad guys all had horns and fangs it would be so much easier. But when the bad guys wear badges.......
It's possible. We're all shaped by our experiences. I haven't met any bad ones yet but I'm not in touch with the police on a daily basis either. It's a tough call sometimes.
I agree with you about choosing your battles, but what if you had a large amount of cash on you when you were stopped in SC and the state trooper claimed it looked like drug money and confiscated it before sending you on your way? No other evidence, no arrest, just loss of your cash until you go to court and prove it was not drug money. When do you start your battle?... Before, during or after the fact?
Do it after the fact and you must spend a lot of time and money. Do it during and you face jail time for interference with official acts (or worse if the officer is trigger happy). Better to do it BEFORE by bringing the events that HAVE happened to the lime-light and get the Constitution enforced.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Good planning goes a long way... which is why I tend not to travel with alot of unexplained cash on me. I would look at someone with alot of cash on hand as suspicious too, and I'm not even in law enforcement. You tip the odds in your favor by anticipating problems and making sure the obvious questions are answered. Thus, unlike that lady in the article, I've got my passport with me.. along with my drivers' licence and any documentation that might show what I was doing in SC. Now even that might not be enough in some circumstances..
For what it's worth:
I was a juror. The suspect had $500 cash, the prosecutor said in his closing argument that that was an enormous amount to carry. I usually withdraw $200 when I visit an ATM, so I don't consider $500 enormous, just large.
I remember reading of a case where the cops confiscated a few tens of thousands in cash, and found traces of cocaine in the money, used that as indication that it was drug money. I can't remember the reason the judge tossed out that evidence, but maybe it was something on the lines of http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/08/090816-cocaine-money.html "Nearly nine out of ten bills circulating in the U.S. and its northern neighbor are tainted with cocaine, according to what's being called the most definitive research to date on the subject."
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
That much cash will raise suspicion. 500 is alot to have on hand. I can't even remember the last time a spent cash...everything is debit or credit.
When I take a trip, I expect to leave cash as tips in hotel rooms and in diners, and I expect to possibly have to pay taxi fare in cash--for example,in New Orleans this spring I had to pay cash. So, before leaving, I withdraw what I feel may be necessary (I used to get Travelers Checks, but not every bank or credit union office now has them available, nor does every hotel accept them now).
Johnny
Travelers' checks...now that takes me back! A lot of folks today wouldn't have a clue as to what they were or how to use them. We probably still have the accompaying paperwork somewhere...We have never been accosted, frisked, searched, or asked embarrassing questions. We haven't flown, so that whole rigmarole hasn't affected us. On Amtrak, you know the security is there (why, one time a dog and her handler walked right past me!), but they do their job with competence and without inconveniencing people that don't deserve it. I've never felt insecure on an Amtrak ride, and on our grueling ride home we saw an unruly passenger peacably calmed down, but watched for the rest of the trip. (She was a piece of work...)It is usually easy enough to get the cash you need, so you don't have to supply yourself for an entire trip like you once did. We hit the savings account for cash every so often...normally we'd be knocking over ATMs, but our bank has no branches in California. But the banks keep our money until we need it...Do I sound idealistic? I hope not...but for us, this is reality.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
I keep a Canadian quarter in my pocket in case my wife sends me to the store and I need a shopping cart.
UlrichI have no issues with searches or enforcement.. its the world we live in now and these folks have a job to do.
I'd like to see them make it a little more equitable.
For instance, whenever a cop asks to search me wih no probable cause, if he finds nothing then I should be allowed to search him in return. just for the annoyance factor and to see how they like having 30 minutes of their time wasted by a moron who can't tell the difference between probable cause and unfounded suspicion.
Jeez, if having $500 dollars or more in your pocket can get you in trouble I'd better watch myself. I've got at least that much, if not more on me when I go to an antique or train show.
I always pay cash at those things. It's instantly recognizable and always welcome.
PS: I tip in cash too. Us workin' stiffs have to look out for each other.
Here is a linked story posted in the Atlantic Magazine that expolres a side of the traveler searches on AMTRAK.
Linked @ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/05/how-the-dea-harasses-amtrak-passengers/393230/
[snipped] "...Last year, theAssociated Press reported that the DEA “paid an Amtrak secretary $854,460 over nearly 20 years to obtain confidential information about train passengers, which the DEA could have lawfully obtained for free through a law enforcement network.” (This was reportedly done so that the DEA could avoid sharing seized assets with Amtrak police, which hints at how lucrative such seizures are.)
Around the same time, the ACLU filed a Freedom of Information Act request after getting reports about Amtrak passengers having their rights violated. “This type of targeting constitutes a significant invasion of personal privacy,” an attorney wrote in the accompanying memo. “It suggests that Amtrak is sharing the travel-related data of thousands of its passengers who have engaged in no wrongdoing...”[snip]
One aspect of these searches is the potential for the 'capturing agency' to gain,for its budget, the confiscatory aspect of the cash money found in the 'drug searches'.
Firelock76 Jeez, if having $500 dollars or more in your pocket can get you in trouble I'd better watch myself. I've got at least that much, if not more on me when I go to an antique or train show. I always pay cash at those things. It's instantly recognizable and always welcome. PS: I tip in cash too. Us workin' stiffs have to look out for each other.
I have emergency cash stowed away in my office in case my wife kicks me out and I have to Motel 6 it. Hasn't happened yet, but I believe in being prepared. Nothing (I'm told) like a trip to the dog house without some ready cash just in case. I'm not too worried about the cops.. I don't look like a user/dealer and seem to have a natural way of putting people (including the police) at ease..
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